53 replies to this topic

[MadcatX]

Mole, on 24 August 2019 - 09:18 PM, said:

Is this even about Epic's functionality for anyone? For me, it's about the fact that Russ lied through his teeth to the playerbase in order to take their money.

I don't recall a lie being told to incite people to pre-order. People willingly gave their money before the announcement (other then a 3 day overlap or something along those lines?)

[Nesutizale]

I remember that the talk was that PGI aspected to launch on steam, because Epic turned them down the first time they tried to make a deal and there are still talks about other options. Steam, GOG and Epic where all there as options beside each other while the pre-order was allready running.
What they said so on the website ... I don't remember how it was exactly phrased.

Point is if they didn't communicated it clearly that the steamkey was only what they aspected to happen, at that very specific time, on the website then you could say its a lie, also technicly there was indeed just a few days overlapping of the closeure of the Epic deal and the preorder running out.

So someone informed about the fact that it was "just aspected to be on steam" could have guessed that this is still not a certainty while people who don't had that information and went with what is said on the website would feel lied to.

Edited by Nesutizale, 25 August 2019 - 02:11 AM.

[Mole]

MadcatX, on 24 August 2019 - 09:39 PM, said:

I don't recall a lie being told to incite people to pre-order. People willingly gave their money before the announcement (other then a 3 day overlap or something along those lines?)

Russ was quoted as saying that it was planned to be released on all platforms and steam keys would come with the preorder. People ordered expecting steam release and keys, the bait, and now they're getting an Epic store release, the switch. People are canceling their preorders in droves and rightfully so.

[MadcatX]

Mole, on 25 August 2019 - 12:13 PM, said:

Russ was quoted as saying that it was planned to be released on all platforms and steam keys would come with the preorder. People ordered expecting steam release and keys, the bait, and now they're getting an Epic store release, the switch. People are canceling their preorders in droves and rightfully so.

People shouldn't give a company money without at least waiting to see reviews of the final product in the first place. No point in pre-ordering a digital product that has an unlimited supply if the product itself is garbage, no matter the platform it's on.

As for misinformation from PGI... this is not a new thing. There will always be people that have emotional investments in franchises, myself included. There was a time when you could trust more dev teams, even AAA ones, to put out quality products that were fair to both themselves and the consumer. That time has passed and it's now time for folks to, well, curb their enthusiasm a little bit or they'll find themselves getting angry even more often as the "games as a service" business model swings into full gear.

Edited by MadcatX, 25 August 2019 - 03:24 PM.

[slide]

People are complaining about Epic etc being spyware or what ever conspiracy that they have, it's not just Epic, it's everything.

The problem is that most software comes with clauses that you agree to when you click "agree" in the EULA. 99.9% of people don't read it and you could quite literally agree to give away their first born. And that makes it legal because you signed it.

There was an article on this in "New Scientist" a while back. A University in the UK had a popular Photoshop style product insert a line in the EULA to the effect of "the first person to email this link, wins $10000". It took 7 months and something like 60000 copies sold before someone claimed the prize.

The fact is these days software use is a binary proposition, you use it or you don't, you sign the EULA or you don't. (Cookies come under the same category too BTW). Almost every product you use online now will have some clause in the EULA allowing the company involved to use your data in any way they see fit and if you want to use that software, whether it be a game, Facebook, Instagram,a CAD package or whatever then you just sign it and get on with what you have to do.

There are of coarse risks to just signing and moving on, but I can't see how the risk on Epic is any higher than the risk you take with any other EULA you just never read, sign and move on with. Something we all do on a weekly or more frequent basis.

[Nesutizale]

Pretty much that. Also somehow people seam to forget that some of the data is also quite usefull for themself.
Companies know better what the consumer want, where they buy and then can tailer products more specific to the costumer.

Also ads you want to see compared to ads you have no interest in. Do you realy think ads will go away? Why not have at least ads that might have something interesting for you?
I remember that I made a testrun where I told certain sites to delete my personal ads and see what they would show me instead and...what shall I say I reanabled personal ads again.

So all the data going around isn't allways bad. Sure some stuff is bad but not everything.
Don't know how your country handles it but does someone remember these big phone books that you could find on every phonebox? Thousands of adresses, phonenumbers etc. all in one convinient package for free for everyone.
Can't remember that anyone protested against that and they where everywhere.

Add to that, that most people today give their data away freely. Man so many numbers and adresses that you can find on facebook, reddit and stuff. Pictures of children, relative, friends and others freely shared all over the world.

Also why do some people think that they are so imporent that one company is interested in them. Most of them are interested in statistical data, not you personaly.
When you receive a letter that says "We are interested in you / You won XYZ / or any other kind of information....that is a statistical search if there is someone at the receiving end. They aren't realy interested in you, just sending out mass mails to see if someone acts on them.

[PHAROSMJD]

slide, on 25 August 2019 - 04:27 PM, said:

And that makes it legal because you signed it.

I'm no lawyer, but it is my understanding that an EULA cannot override the laws of whatever state/province/country you live in. If said place has laws that regulates or forbids data collection or targeted advertising, it is illegal for the software to overstep that law for any user in that place regardless of what the EULA says.
Now, the fact that regulation is lagging behind tech and there is not nearly enough interest for most people to push their representatives for consumer protection, can pretty much be an entire different discussion in and of itself.

[slide]

PHAROSMJD, on 28 August 2019 - 04:37 AM, said:

I'm no lawyer, but it is my understanding that an EULA cannot override the laws of whatever state/province/country you live in. If said place has laws that regulates or forbids data collection or targeted advertising, it is illegal for the software to overstep that law for any user in that place regardless of what the EULA says.
Now, the fact that regulation is lagging behind tech and there is not nearly enough interest for most people to push their representatives for consumer protection, can pretty much be an entire different discussion in and of itself.

No doubt it is a slippery slope and no mere mortal could afford lawyers that are as good as those that the likes of Epic, MS or Apple could hire. But most jurisdictions also acknowledge that most contracts (which a EULA is) are legally binding because the presumption is that because you signed it you there fore read and understand it's contents, even if you didn't read it or don't understand it. But that varies from place to place to. I also am not a lawyer. That said are you really going to engage and pay a Lawyer to read the EULA every time you want a new game. No one ever did that I'll bet. Which is where they get you.

That said most companies (at least the big international ones) will have EULA's tailored to local laws where possible.

I recently saw an article where Mercedes Benz is in hot water in the UK over tracking devices mounted in their newer cars. This is apparently to facilitate the recovery of the vehicle in case of a default on the finance or if stolen. Now it is completely illegal in the UK to mount tracking devices on cars without the owners permission. MB has got around this by including a clause in the finance contract. This apparently makes it legal because the owner is giving permission, even if they didn't read or see that bit of fine print. Now they say they don't track your vehicle all the time, only in the above circumstances but that doesn't mean they couldn't.

Now like a EULA which is binary in it's use, you would have to think there is a bit of blackmail going on here with MB too. Simply put sign the contract or don't get the car. Whilst it might remain an option right now to by a car from a different brand, what happens when they all start doing it?

Now personally I find having a big company know (more or less) my whereabouts 24/7 more terrifying than them having my name and an email address.

Edited by slide, 28 August 2019 - 10:48 PM.

[50 50]

MischiefSC, on 16 August 2019 - 08:12 AM, said:

... Did some research

That's interesting.
I'm curious to know if MW5 will be added to the MWO Launcher that we got. Can keep all my MW stuff in one spot then.... wouldn't mind extending that to Battletech either so then it's my one stop MW:BT spot.

[Nesutizale]

One launcher to keep them all, to start them and update them together....yah well we know how that ended. Some little folk burned it all

[MW Waldorf Statler]

SirSmokes, on 16 August 2019 - 08:46 AM, said:

I am for MWO2 because Cry engine has bin one of the thing holding back Mechwarrior online. Upgrading to up to data supported Unreal engine would help Mechwarrior do a lot of the things they can't implement because of Cry engine

Thats Nonsense, the cryengine one of the powerfull Engines next to UE (boths have her own strong features ...many features have both)...Seeing modern games like "War of the Right" ,"the Hunt" or MWLL as a Fanproject ..its not the Cryengine, its thats PGI lost all People with Cryengine Experience thats heavily modified the Engine for MWO.
Many of the Leaders mit Experience goes 2014&15 to make her own ways and Careers (Transverse and the Reddit disaster was a factor of it) ...so nothing big Crew further for the Cry-Engine.
For example ...Inverse Kinetics for the Cryengine no Problem ,when you have Guys thats can handle and work with the Engine.
PGI a Ship with a Captain and not enough seamen..and the Captain gives all months a new Harbour as target.

Edited by MW Waldorf Statler, 29 August 2019 - 03:33 AM.

[Prototelis]

What is nonsense is how you keep prattling on about things that have already been explained to you.

1. IK is a basic feature of this version of Cryengine. The reason why it doesn't work in this implementation is because the game is heavily server authoritative. If you need a clear example of why it doesn't work in THIS GAME look up the Dragon Bowling video. That kind of desync not only looks ugly; it kills a shooting game where the objective is to hit specific components.

Mechwarrior 3/4 have their own hitreg issues. I played the crap out of both of them, I know. Theres a reason why hitscan weapons were HEAVILY preferred in competitive play.

2. Like any large software project; this game most likely is controlled by a repository and is heavily documented. The reason features don't get implemented the way you would like is for the following reasons;

• It costs money; and they spent it on other things. This entire game's life has been crowdfunding for another game; MW5
  
• There are likely engineering decisions that make the changes you would like to see prohibitively difficult; that costs money
  
• The changes you would like to see don't earn direct returns; this makes them a gamble, that costs money.

You seem to hold some of the original dev team in high regard; stop insulting them by asserting that they didn't document their work well enough that it could be understood.

3. Experience isn't even an issue; Cryengine is one of the most well documented engines ever. Problem solving is something you can buy; and they aren't going to buy any.

4. UE4 is much easier to develop on because it is modular. IE; you can pull out and replace large chunks of the game engine without breaking everything.

5. Living legends has its own issues; and it is similarly hamstrung by limitations presented by the version of cryengine it uses. It also uses a different version of cryengine.

[Horseman]

SirSmokes, on 16 August 2019 - 09:32 AM, said:

Not a fan of this Epic deal but if were not forced to use the launcher it makes it a little more acceptable. Just have to deal with it for the download and then I can forget it even there I am hoping.

MischiefSC, on 17 August 2019 - 08:40 AM, said:

That was a concern as well, but apparently such a thing doesn't exist with Epic. Also even Rebel Galaxy does its own patching without Epic up.

"For now". TBH that's the one - and only - feature I expect them to rush to implement.

LordNothing, on 16 August 2019 - 10:00 AM, said:

i dont like the exclusive crap either. but its no different for having to have 5 different streaming services to keep up with the 6 shows i watch.

And then a 6th and 7th service come up and each buys exclusive rights to the future seasons of the shows you watch.

Quote

if soviet russia was still soviet, their games downloader would take up a terabyte, grind your cpu to a halt, spy on you, and fail to load the long tetris piece.

So... EGS?

Mole, on 24 August 2019 - 09:18 PM, said:

Is this even about Epic's functionality for anyone? For me, it's about the fact that Russ lied through his teeth to the playerbase in order to take their money.

MadcatX, on 24 August 2019 - 09:39 PM, said:

I don't recall a lie being told to incite people to pre-order. People willingly gave their money before the announcement (other then a 3 day overlap or something along those lines?)

"Steam Workshop", "Will be delivered as a Steam key". The service and integration with it have been specified multiple times over in no uncertain terms.
And then "Just a FAQ update, nothing to worry about" (we know how THAT turned out).

Nesutizale, on 25 August 2019 - 02:09 AM, said:

I remember that the talk was that PGI aspected to launch on steam, because Epic turned them down the first time they tried to make a deal and there are still talks about other options. Steam, GOG and Epic where all there as options beside each other while the pre-order was allready running.
What they said so on the website ... I don't remember how it was exactly phrased.

Luckily, the Internet Archive remembers.

Quote

• The Community Edition Pre-Order program will provide you with a key to the Steam version of MechWarrior 5: Mercenaries upon the game's release. When available, you will receive the Steam Key through your profile page on this site.
  
• The Exclusive Closed Beta is only available to Community Edition owners, and will be delivered to you in the form of a Steam key.You will be granted a Steam key through your profile on this site.
  
• The Digital Content will also be provided through Steam. A key will be provided through your profile on this site

As you can see, there is zero ambiguity there. The information was delivered as a statement of fact.

Quote

Point is if they didn't communicated it clearly that the steamkey was only what they aspected to happen,

You keep using that word. It doesn't mean what you think it does.

For your consideration: As a game publisher (or self-publishing developer) you don't "expect" your game to release on a specific platform, you plan to release it on said platform and have to take steps to get it on that platform.

Let's face reality: PGI was selling the pre-orders and advertising them as Steam pre-orders while actively attempting to sign an exclusivity deal with Epic.
They started the pre-order campaign and pretty much immediately decided to try and renege on its' terms.
There's nothing "expected" about that from their point of view, but quite a lot of "premeditated".

Quote

So someone informed about the fact that it was "just aspected to be on steam" could have guessed that this is still not a certainty while people who don't had that information and went with what is said on the website would feel lied to.

Counterpoint: Steam was stated as the target platform even before the preorders started - in fact, Steam Workshop support was advertised as a major selling point as early as Mech Con 2017.

Edited by Horseman, 04 September 2019 - 10:47 PM.

[LordNothing]

Horseman, on 04 September 2019 - 02:32 PM, said:

And then a 6th and 7th service come up and each buys exclusive rights to the future seasons of the shows you watch.

don't worry, i found a "streaming service" that carries them all.