109 replies to this topic

[Y E O N N E]

Valhakar, on 02 September 2019 - 10:45 AM, said:

You kids are just entitled whiners. Enjoy what you have when you have it.

Sit your *** down and learn that businesses live or die by meeting customer needs.

[Valhakar]

Y E O N N E, on 02 September 2019 - 11:40 AM, said:

Sit your *** down and learn that businesses live or die by meeting customer needs.

I work on Wall Street. Businesses do not live or die by simply listening to customers. They pass through phases and ignore entitled morons and move to more profitable ventures/customers. In a nutshell, and I have worked for companies that have done this, when the "customer" becomes the problem you find a new venture. You leave said bitching customer frothing at the mouth.

MWO was never exceptionally profitable. Too high maintenance, too little buy in. Its why I enjoyed it while it lasted and will continue to enjoy it until the entitled user base kills yet another game because they feel like they have ownership and make demands. I will buy MWM5 because its going to be modded and the play engine those of us will use when the MWO server die off.

[Spheroid]

Valhakar, on 02 September 2019 - 10:45 AM, said:

I got my 150 bucks worth of play time, costing me pennies an hour over the last 6 years. I

Jarl's does not support this statement. When was this gameplay logged and under what user name?

[Y E O N N E]

Valhakar, on 02 September 2019 - 12:37 PM, said:

I work on Wall Street. Businesses do not live or die by simply listening to customers. They pass through phases and ignore entitled morons and move to more profitable ventures/customers. In a nutshell, and I have worked for companies that have done this, when the "customer" becomes the problem you find a new venture. You leave said bitching customer frothing at the mouth.

So you worked for companies that were failures at marketing what they were trying to sell or which didn't have something worth buying.

Businesses live or die by being able to justify their expenses because they bring in enough money to cover them and then some. That requires that they either provide enough value to direct customers to justify purchasing their goods and services or that they provide enough value to that group such that outside parties see enough potential to keep investing to make up the difference on the belief that they will come out ahead in the end. At the end of the day, though, it always comes back to whether or not enough people see value in the company's product to give it money and part of that equation is being able to manage customer expectations.

In the case of MWO, PGI has flatly failed to manage customer expectations. They sold a kickstarter and several 'Mech Packs based on promises they never fulfilled and, indeed, probably never had any intention of fulfilling. They then took that money, tried to cash it in on a trending space-sim fad, and got completely crushed on their Kickstarter and PR because of trying to move on from MWO when MWO was not delivered. It has been an ongoing, down-ward spiral from there because PGI persists in failing to deliver what was promised.

Spheroid, on 02 September 2019 - 12:55 PM, said:

Jarl's does not support this statement. When was this gameplay logged and under what user name?

TBF, Jarl's doesn't go back much past 2016, if at all.

Edited by Y E O N N E, 02 September 2019 - 01:11 PM.

[Valhakar]

Y E O N N E, on 02 September 2019 - 01:10 PM, said:

So you worked for companies that were failures at marketing what they were trying to sell or which didn't have something worth buying.

Businesses live or die by being able to justify their expenses because they bring in enough money to cover them and then some. That requires that they either provide enough value to direct customers to justify purchasing their goods and services or that they provide enough value to that group such that outside parties see enough potential to keep investing to make up the difference on the belief that they will come out ahead in the end. At the end of the day, though, it always comes back to whether or not enough people see value in the company's product to give it money and part of that equation is being able to manage customer expectations.

In the case of MWO, PGI has flatly failed to manage customer expectations. They sold a kickstarter and several 'Mech Packs based on promises they never fulfilled and, indeed, probably never had any intention of fulfilling. They then took that money, tried to cash it in on a trending space-sim fad, and got completely crushed on their Kickstarter and PR because of trying to move on from MWO when MWO was not delivered. It has been an ongoing, down-ward spiral from there because PGI persists in failing to deliver what was promised.



TBF, Jarl's doesn't go back much past 2016, if at all.

Yes such as Microsoft. Huge failure there. Businesses evolve, scrap bad products, and purposely avoid problem customer bases. The more you demand your "rights" the more companies walk away.

[Nesutizale]

There are allways two sides of the coin. When your costumers become to toxic, drop them. When the company dosn't listen it will fail over time. You have to find a middleground in the end.

[Bombast]

Valhakar, on 02 September 2019 - 01:23 PM, said:

Yes such as Microsoft. Huge failure there. Businesses evolve, scrap bad products, and purposely avoid problem customer bases. The more you demand your "rights" the more companies walk away.

Microsoft may not be the best example you can pull up. Their primary customer has always been other businesses (And Governments), which they do listen to, and they have bowed to to the consumer on the few big ventures into that space they've made (The XBone probably being the most relevant example).

The fact Microsoft has made several huge screw-ups in the consumer space isn't really an excuse for PGI support. The consumer was not the problem with the Zune.

[Y E O N N E]

Valhakar, on 02 September 2019 - 01:23 PM, said:

Yes such as Microsoft. Huge failure there. Businesses evolve, scrap bad products, and purposely avoid problem customer bases. The more you demand your "rights" the more companies walk away.

Microsoft has had several products fail because people saw no value in using them, i.e. Games for Windows Live and Windows Phone.

Bad example, you have there.

[Bombast]

Y E O N N E, on 02 September 2019 - 01:41 PM, said:

...and Windows Phone.

Bad example, you have there.

I really liked Windows Phone, actually. The HTC 8X was really nice too.

[Y E O N N E]

Bombast, on 02 September 2019 - 02:00 PM, said:

I really liked Windows Phone, actually. The HTC 8X was really nice too.

I did, too. I bought a Samsung Omnia 7 and a Nokia Lumia 925, and both were fantastic. I think the vision they had with 7 was pretty amazing, but it was too little too late.

[Kubernetes]

Nah, screw PGI.

This game could have been so much more. Despite all the talk about how MWO was a labor of love and how they all love Battletech/Mechwarrior, these guys don't even play their own game! Anyone here around during the Mappening? That's when I lost faith. That's when I realized that these guys are looking at numbers on a chart instead of actually playing.

[Mystere]

Valhakar, on 02 September 2019 - 12:37 PM, said:

I work on Wall Street.

Somehow I don't believe you ...

Valhakar, on 02 September 2019 - 01:23 PM, said:

Yes such as Microsoft.

... because when people say they work there, they're referring to brokerage firms, investment banks, hedge funds, etc.

Unless of course you meant you work in "facilities".

[Feral Clown]

Mystere, on 02 September 2019 - 08:16 PM, said:

Somehow I don't believe you ...



... because when people say they work there, they're referring to brokerage firms, investment banks, hedge funds, etc.

Unless of course you meant you work in "facilities".

Hey but I worked on Bay St!!! (Toronto, Canada's equivalent)

Not in facilities though, just as a tech (database admin/crm specialist).

[Mystere]

Feral Clown, on 02 September 2019 - 08:33 PM, said:

Hey but I worked on Bay St!!! (Toronto, Canada's equivalent)

Not in facilities though, just as a tech (database admin/crm specialist).

Just off Bay St. along Temperance is a nice oyster house named John & Sons.

[Feral Clown]

Mystere, on 02 September 2019 - 08:52 PM, said:

Just off Bay St. along Temperance is a nice oyster house named John & Sons.

LOL yes there is. Temperance is looking nicer and nicer these days.

[Anjian]

Bombast, on 02 September 2019 - 04:51 AM, said:

That looks like someone's grandma prostituting herself.

Edited by Anjian, 02 September 2019 - 11:46 PM.

[Anjian]

Nesutizale, on 02 September 2019 - 04:47 AM, said:

What you are proposing is basicly a new game centered around the singleplayer idea and lots of it is hopefully in MW5 but I fear it will not be.

You seem to have a short memory. That is exactly what Mechwarrior 1, 2, 3, and 4 with all their expansions were.

MWO failed to capture the RPG aspect of the franchise, the very struggle of building and maintaining a team of mechwarriors as you hop from one contract to another. HBS Battletech is trying to do that, but on a strategy perspective.

Quote

What I was talking about is how to get a bit more out of MWO from the core promise of beeing a skill based mech-arena-shooter. So I think we are talking a bit past each other.

I think you need to relearn the history of Mechwarrior games to know it didn't start as a skill based mech arena shooter. Its an RPG with a shooting element.

Furthermore I must add, the arena shooter game genre is pretty tapped out, and the audience is still massively in love with battle royale games. BRs are very hard to beat in terms of the quality of game play you can produce from it. The problem of arena games is that they are very game mode sensitive. Team Death Match is still a heavily flawed concept --- its always about balance, balance and balance. Balance the weapons, balance the teams, balance here and that. The end result is a dog chasing its tail, and spending its entire energies on it till it dies. It traps you in a spiral where the developers consume their energy in balancing than creating content.

That's exactly why linear campaign driven games with coop are making a large resurgence. That is also why the arena game is dying --- replaced by guess what --- the Battle Royale.

Quote

When we talk about makeing a new, more story focused game, yes we can or better should do much of the stuff you mentioned.

About the abstract pilot abilities. I think there are three kinds of people. Those who take it as is, those who don't like it but keep quite and those who refuse it.
Sure its 2/3 majority of players that you can get away with as a designer but I think when its possible to have a system that is logical in its gameworld and give you whatever you seek on the game designing side you should definitly take the route.

For Battletech you could still have pilots without abstract abilities. For example reduced screenshake, better aim or when you have NPCs with you, you could have something like inspiration so that they fight better. Getting better contracts as a merc could also be a softskill of a pilot. I bet when you think about it you could find more skills that are fitting to what a person can do better that dosn't involve breaking the physics of your world.

You can also bind softskills into the narration of the story. Maybe that pilot knows some contacts where you go next so you have better intel on the next mission.

Just because people except abstract values/connections dosn't mean you shouldn't at least try to make your game mechanics and world building fit to each other.

You can do all sorts of soft skills and all that. The pilots should be done with good art work, and hopefully nicely voiced. Its little touches like this that makes the mechwarrior player feel he's creating a virtual family of his own with his team of pilots and mechs, to essentially feel making a dropship like his home.

[Feral Clown]

Anjian, on 02 September 2019 - 11:57 PM, said:

You seem to have a short memory. That is exactly what Mechwarrior 1, 2, 3, and 4 with all their expansions were.

MWO failed to capture the RPG aspect of the franchise, the very struggle of building and maintaining a team of mechwarriors as you hop from one contract to another. HBS Battletech is trying to do that, but on a strategy perspective.

I think you need to relearn the history of Mechwarrior games to know it didn't start as a skill based mech arena shooter. Its an RPG with a shooting element.

You guys are having a pretty interesting conversation.

Was wondering though, about the above. I came to the franchise through MW3 and then MW4 Mercs (which I actually still have original CD's and Box/manuals).

Those games to me didn't feel like RPGs at all. Linear stories outside two paths in MW4? Felt very much like a first person shooter with robots to me. Good story, better than Call of Duty type series, but not really all that deep. I mean it certainly didn't really dive deep enough to actually give me much of lore history lesson or anything like that.

Just my take and I could be wrong and didn't pay enough attention I guess to the story but still it got me feeling like I was Spectre and not a full RPG where I created a character or really shaped one.

[Anjian]

Feral Clown, on 03 September 2019 - 12:39 AM, said:

You guys are having a pretty interesting conversation.

Was wondering though, about the above. I came to the franchise through MW3 and then MW4 Mercs (which I actually still have original CD's and Box/manuals).

Those games to me didn't feel like RPGs at all. Linear stories outside two paths in MW4? Felt very much like a first person shooter with robots to me. Good story, better than Call of Duty type series, but not really all that deep. I mean it certainly didn't really dive deep enough to actually give me much of lore history lesson or anything like that.

Just my take and I could be wrong and didn't pay enough attention I guess to the story but still it got me feeling like I was Spectre and not a full RPG where I created a character or really shaped one.

MW3 and 4 certainly had stories, where MWO had none at all. I would consider a game a bit of an RPG where there is an economic and technical progression through acquisition via ingame currency.

MW4 had things like AI wingmen which you can send commands to, and yes there is a single player campaign.

I still have the boxes of these games even the manual for MW1. There is a strong story setting around the game, and that's the tried and true formula of a packaged game today.

The online element on MW4 seems like a peer to peer (no central server) network. There is no matchmaking, everyone finds a lobby with a running game and jumps in. Many games are set with infinite respawns so the match lobby can run as long as it can as long as players are willing to jump into it. Multiplayer isn't a craft but an afterthought to the rest of the game.

MW4 was coming at an age where true dedicated multiplayer games and MMOs were starting to take off. In fact, I left MW4 after a period of time which I was already experiencing a shrinking lobby then so I can play EVE Online. In just those years it was the midst of a revolution.

Looking in hindsight, the most successful mecha games in that era and decade was actually Armored Core. It was single player and story driven, with the later games adding coop and PvP. Such awesome music too. What that company learned from making Armored Core was golden when they applied their talents into Dark Souls. FromSoft, along with Hideo Kojima (who also did mech games once) are now among the leading proponents of single player story driven games today, going back to the core belief and that reminder, that a game is still and must be a work of art.

Edited by Anjian, 03 September 2019 - 01:26 AM.

[Pain G0D]

GeminiWolf, on 19 August 2019 - 06:21 PM, said:

I have no sympathy for the people who preordered, You were warned by the community and there was a track record the warning came from.

Go back to that thread and take a good long look and make a few math calculations at the overall value . What Preorder ? I paid for MC . I scored one jackpot of an MC bonus .......plus some funny game later on .

I have no sympathy for all the people who lost out on all that MWO content . If they demanded a refund ......Literally Free Content .

MW5 Preorder or Refund does not change the fact it was the best deal of this year . As someone holding onto my preorder , I have no regrets .

Edited by Pain G0D, 03 September 2019 - 02:11 AM.