104 replies to this topic

[Feral Clown]

Aidan Crenshaw, on 22 August 2019 - 10:21 PM, said:

I think he means the lock-cone reduction, so that you now have to hold the reticule onto the actual mech instead of somewhere in that red brackets.

That reduction was so minor it had to be pointed out to me that it was even done. I run streaks in CW a lot.

[Aidan Crenshaw]

I know, I know. Just trying to clear thing up.

[Warning incoming Humble Dexterer]

Ok... so much ignorance about the history of LRM nerfs, that I'll mostly address my main point : Lock time nerfs, including both direct and indirect LOS nerfs :

So LRMs started out with an initial lock time of 100 (can I get away with this one ? ), which could be reduced 50% by narcs, and 50% by TAG, which stacked for a total lock time reduction to 25 (100 x 50% x 50% = 25).

That reduction to 25 was available even if someone else was using TAGs and Narcs for you from 1000m away, without you having to use direct LOS.

Although typically any and every direct LOS LRM user would just use his own TAG with no narc available (due to limited missile mounts), with that TAG being the reason for him actively going for direct LOS. And that was enough to reduce the direct LOS lock time to 50 (100 x 50% = 50).

So : The minimum lock time I've been talking about (direct or indirect LOS) was 25, but even without narcs you could and would use your own 1T TAG (or anyone else's TAG) to keep it at 50.


The multiple stacks of LRM nerfs included :
- Reducing the TAG lock time reduction bonus from 50% to 0%.
- Reducing the NARC lock time reduction bonus from 50% to 0%.
- Compensating that 75% universal lock time reduction with a direct-LOS-only 20% reduction : From 100 to 80.
- Increasing indirect LOS lock time : From 110 to... over 1000 ?

So what does that really mean :
If there's an AFK enemy mech standing in the open, that all 12 players from your team including yourself stand 10m around it, that all 12 are using a TAG, release an UAV, and shoot their own Narc into it... The direct LOS lock time is then : 80

That absolute minimum of 80 compares to the 25 you could get before, using indirect LOS, from over 1000m away.

And the extent of that nerf for the minimum short range direct LOS locks is : 80 / 25 = 3.2x longer.

And that 3.2X "increase" for the minimum short range direct LOS lock time, is what PGI is calling "a boost".

Because as for the long range indirect lock time nerfs : They've become impractical by design, which does make a 3.2x nerf kind of look like "a boost"... or more precisely qualifies as "a lesser nerf".


And again the usual notes :
- AMS range has been increased by over 15% : From 165m to 190m.
- LRM20 missile health was reduced by 30% : At which point missiles were exploding all over the cockpit inside the mech, because they couldn't even exit their launch tube (true story, there's probably youtube videos about it).
- To fix the cockpit fireworks, LRM20 missile health was reduced by 20% instead of 30% : So missiles could exit their launch tubes before being shot down.
- The 15% AMS range increase and 20% LRM20 health decrease stack together.
- PGI quadrupled the amount of AMS an IS assault can carry over a Clan assault (because...hello balance patch...).
- Do I need to mention that AMS can shoot missiles through walls ? No, because it's obvious enough that even LRM-haters gave up on denying the fact (for once).

Again, not a single trace of a "boost" anywhere : The only positives are just there to "reduce" (not even compensate) the extent of the nerfs, and once you add a nerf to it's partial compensation, what you get are some "partially reduced nerfs", which still amounts to nerfs.

Anyway on practical terms, that means I've thrown out my 0% lock time reduction TAGs, my average direct lock time has increased from 50 to 80, and Narcs can no longer reduce it down to 25... And that part of the LRM balance patch, is what PGI calls a "direct LOS boost" (PGI has it's own sense of humor), that is meant to compensate for the massive indirect LOS nerfs, and encourage LRM players to go get themselves a slower then ever before direct LOS lock...

I'll skip the part about the direct LOS low arc "boost" being more dangerous to your teammates then to enemy mechs... You can read forum threads here about those teammates complaining about it.

And finally : Stop throwing more empty wind at me, and start throwing me some numbers back instead, because my windmill is about to fly off.

Edited by Humble Dexter, 23 August 2019 - 07:55 AM.

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

[Warning incoming Humble Dexterer]

Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, on 23 August 2019 - 07:42 AM, said:

Ok here's the short version for you :
- Direct lock time has been nerfed from 25-100 to 80-80
- Indirect lock time has been nerfed from 25-100 to 110-1000+
- A 80-80 lock time takes long enough to get yourself headshot from over 800m away.

[Prototelis]

That all made zero sense lol.

Lock times are fine. Lrms are fine.

Stop using ATMS as ER-LRMs, you'll have better results.

[Feral Clown]

Humble Dexter, on 23 August 2019 - 07:22 AM, said:

Ok... so much ignorance about the history of LRM nerfs, that I'll mostly address my main point : Lock time nerfs, including both direct and indirect LOS nerfs :

So LRMs started out with an initial lock time of 100 (can I get away with this one ? ), which could be reduced 50% by narcs, and 50% by TAG, which stacked for a total lock time reduction to 25 (100 x 50% x 50% = 25).

That reduction to 25 was available even if someone else was using TAGs and Narcs for you from 1000m away, without you having to use direct LOS.

Although typically any and every direct LOS LRM user would just use his own TAG with no narc available (due to limited missile mounts), with that TAG being the reason for him actively going for direct LOS. And that was enough to reduce the direct LOS lock time to 50 (100 x 50% = 50).

So : The minimum lock time I've been talking about (direct or indirect LOS) was 25, but even without narcs you could and would use your own 1T TAG (or anyone else's TAG) to keep it at 50.


The multiple stacks of LRM nerfs included :
- Reducing the TAG lock time reduction bonus from 50% to 0%.
- Reducing the NARC lock time reduction bonus from 50% to 0%.
- Compensating that 75% universal lock time reduction with a direct-LOS-only 20% reduction : From 100 to 80.
- Increasing indirect LOS lock time : From 110 to... over 1000 ?

So what does that really mean :
If there's an AFK enemy mech standing in the open, that all 12 players from your team including yourself stand 10m around it, that all 12 are using a TAG, release an UAV, and shoot their own Narc into it... The direct LOS lock time is then : 80

That absolute minimum of 80 compares to the 25 you could get before, using indirect LOS, from over 1000m away.

And the extent of that nerf for the minimum short range direct LOS locks is : 80 / 25 = 3.2x longer.

And that 3.2X "increase" for the minimum short range direct LOS lock time, is what PGI is calling "a boost".

Because as for the long range indirect lock time nerfs : They've become impractical by design, which does make a 3.2x nerf kind of look like "a boost"... or more precisely qualifies as "a lesser nerf".


And again the usual notes :
- AMS range has been increased by over 15% : From 165m to 190m.
- LRM20 missile health was reduced by 30% : At which point missiles were exploding all over the cockpit inside the mech, because they couldn't even exit their launch tube (true story, there's probably youtube videos about it).
- To fix the cockpit fireworks, LRM20 missile health was reduced by 20% instead of 30% : So missiles could exit their launch tubes before being shot down.
- The 15% AMS range increase and 20% LRM20 health decrease stack together.
- PGI quadrupled the amount of AMS an IS assault can carry over a Clan assault (because...hello balance patch...).
- Do I need to mention that AMS can shoot missiles through walls ? No, because it's obvious enough that even LRM-haters gave up on denying the fact (for once).

Again, not a single trace of a "boost" anywhere : The only positives are just there to "reduce" (not even compensate) the extent of the nerfs, and once you add a nerf to it's partial compensation, what you get are some "partially reduced nerfs", which still amounts to nerfs.

Anyway on practical terms, that means I've thrown out my 0% lock time reduction TAGs, my average direct lock time has increased from 50 to 80, and Narcs can no longer reduce it down to 25... And that part of the LRM balance patch, is what PGI calls a "direct LOS boost" (PGI has it's own sense of humor), that is meant to compensate for the massive indirect LOS nerfs, and encourage LRM players to go get themselves a slower then ever before direct LOS lock...

I'll skip the part about the direct LOS low arc "boost" being more dangerous to your teammates then to enemy mechs... You can read forum threads here about those teammates complaining about it.

And finally : Stop throwing more empty wind at me, and start throwing me some numbers back instead, because my windmill is about to fly off.

I posted the patch notes previously.

Everything you are experiencing is user error. Only you and one other guy has complained on the forums, the rest of the player base is dealing with it. There is still a large amount of people fielding lurms in quick play and CW, so they are no where near as gimped as you are finding them and again other people have figured it out, it's really not that hard.

Either adjust and learn to play lurms with it's new mechanics, play other weapons and finally learn what positioning is, or play another game.

[Warning incoming Humble Dexterer]

Humble Dexter, on 23 August 2019 - 07:22 AM, said:

Stop throwing more empty wind at me, and start throwing me some numbers back instead, because my windmill is about to fly off.

Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, on 23 August 2019 - 07:42 AM, said:

wind

Prototelis, on 23 August 2019 - 04:27 PM, said:

wind

Feral Clown, on 23 August 2019 - 04:45 PM, said:

wind

I asked for numbers to contradict mine, and got more empty wind instead...

There you've done it : My windmill flew off !

[Feral Clown]

Humble Dexter, on 25 August 2019 - 12:54 AM, said:

I asked for numbers to contradict mine, and got more empty wind instead...

There you've done it : My windmill flew off !

That's because you're talking out your butt again.

The universal bonus of that 20% means that for 100% of the time, lock time is reduced. Narc and tag used to stack but the in game situations where that actually was practiced is no where near the amount of time that 100% is...do you follow that?

Then you go on and on about the utter nonsense of missiles blowing up before they left their launchers, which could only happen if that mech was in 190m.... for crying out loud no competent lrm user is going to want a target so close to their min range cutoff. You say they there must be videos of this, well how about finding one.

Boated lrms absolutely smoke through AMS. Unless you have a team of Cosair's and I mean who would even do that? The thing is a novelty and doesn't protect an entire team, and if talking about CW people who are organised and skilled have no problems defeating a couple of them on the field. I am quite sure though that you are unhappy your old inflated scores are down because of more people running AMS. Thing is, it's not overpowered and previously it was useless. The most effected weapon by it is ATM's which are cancer so no one cares.

You also continually skip the part that line of sight also reduces spread (by 20%? I forget but in the patch notes I posted earlier). The new arc with current velocity values means that lurms are deadly if you are not fast and caught in the 400m sweetspot.

Again this boils down to how you were using lurms and your lack of understanding the game (I even gave you that 100 cause I can't find the official timing numbers).

So the wind is coming from your end...literally and it smells.

Edited by Feral Clown, 25 August 2019 - 01:17 AM.

[Prototelis]

P. sure tag and narc never stacked dude.

Either way, the tag lock on bonus has been rolled into los locks. Tag or narc on a mech in IDF is treated as a LOS lock.

Edited by Prototelis, 25 August 2019 - 01:21 AM.

[Feral Clown]

Prototelis, on 25 August 2019 - 01:21 AM, said:

P. sure tag and narc never stacked dude.

Either way, the tag lock on bonus has been rolled into los locks. Tag or narc on a mech in IDF is treated as a LOS lock.

Oh he's going to lose it on you because indirect lock is not sped up in any way by friendly tag or narc any more. It's based on distance with indirect now. And after all he is quite practiced on not having line of sight so he definitely knows that one.

*both tag and narc still give spread bonus in idf though but not even sure as PGI has not spelled it out implicitly if the current los spread bonus stacks with those and currently doesn't really look like it does.

Edited by Feral Clown, 25 August 2019 - 01:28 AM.

[Prototelis]

https://mwomercs.com...41980-19mar2019
TAG Changes:

• Weapon Lock-on speed booster removed
  
• Targets that are being painted by TAG are treated as if they are in direct LOS for the purposes of Weapon Lock-On time and Missile spread.

Am I interpreting that wrong? I dunno. I don't use people to get locks for me that often. My skill eagle has tag to bust REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEcm.

[Feral Clown]

Prototelis, on 25 August 2019 - 01:34 AM, said:

https://mwomercs.com...41980-19mar2019
TAG Changes:

• Weapon Lock-on speed booster removed
  
• Targets that are being painted by TAG are treated as if they are in direct LOS for the purposes of Weapon Lock-On time and Missile spread.

Am I interpreting that wrong? I dunno. I don't use people to get locks for me that often. My skill eagle has tag to bust REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEcm.

Dunno...you've been PGI'd maybe?

https://mwomercs.com...atch-notes/2251

• Attempting a weapon lock in direct LOS will see a 20% reduction in weapon lock-on time over the previous universal lock-on base time.
  
• This rate is a flat rate that applies equally across all ranges provided you have direct LOS to the target. Furthermore, this value cannot be augmented in any way.

Functionally a narc'd target 800m away perhaps takes the same time a los from that distance, but it is definitely increased over how the weapon previously worked. Before when a target was narc'd if you were running the 8R at 1100m you would get a lock almost instant, now you have to wait a bit.

[Prototelis]

Well, in those patch notes it says narc only gives a spread bonus, and doesn't turn a leech lock into a DF lock.

[Feral Clown]

Prototelis, on 25 August 2019 - 02:17 AM, said:

Well, in those patch notes it says narc only gives a spread bonus, and doesn't turn a leech lock into a DF lock.

Yeah it also describes los as not being 'debuffed' at any range by ecm...

"Pushing players to counterplay around these drawbacks through direct LOS locks, which are not impeded at any range, nor get any lock-on time debuff from ECM, or coordinating with team mates in a number of ways to either counter, subvert, or brute force your way through the drawbacks now associated with indirect lock-ons"

That would be a nerf to ecm for direct fire los no? Not really seeing it behave as described above though.

[Prototelis]

I dunno dude. Getting LOS locks is pretty easy and brainless.

[Mystere]

Humble Dexter, on 25 August 2019 - 12:54 AM, said:

There you've done it : My windmill flew off !

Thanks for the laugh!

<now back to your regularly scheduled catfights >

[Kroete]

Humble Dexter, on 23 August 2019 - 07:22 AM, said:

The multiple stacks of LRM nerfs included :
- Reducing the TAG lock time reduction bonus from 50% to 0%.
- Reducing the NARC lock time reduction bonus from 50% to 0%.
- Compensating that 75% universal lock time reduction with a direct-LOS-only 20% reduction : From 100 to 80.
- Increasing indirect LOS lock time : From 110 to... over 1000 ?

So what does that really mean :
If there's an AFK enemy mech standing in the open, that all 12 players from your team including yourself stand 10m around it, that all 12 are using a TAG, release an UAV, and shoot their own Narc into it... The direct LOS lock time is then : 80

You missed artemis locktime reduction and direct fire.

Direct was nerfed a lot by this, the low arc helps, sometimes, but the time you need to stare, even with los is much worse. The faster traveltime does not compensate the longer locktimes for direct fire.

If you try to trade you get 2 for 1, because the time you need to lock now, before it was one on one but you spread your damage, now you spread a little less but get 2 in return. And if you can manage to get a second salvo out, it will often hit terrain because the enemy was in los on fire but paddles back and you hit terrain with the low arc.

Hitting terrain more often with the new arc, then the new arc helped in hitting an enemy which i would not have hit with the old arc with direct fire. A weapon where you need to break los sometimes if you need to hit someone is stupid!


For indiret it doesnt matter much, if you want to stay back and fire indirect, you just need a little more to wait until you can shoot. If you where raining with 15 or 20 over some time indirect before, just fire lrm60-80 indirect until the lock is lost or you need to cool down and wait for the next lock and you also get better ams penetrating. Not much changed here ...

Edited by Kroete, 25 August 2019 - 03:56 AM.

[OmniFail]

Feral Clown, on 20 August 2019 - 10:32 PM, said:

....oh gees don't tell me you can't figure out how to work the new mechanic either???

Hmmm...

No, no, I'm a noob. Could you explain to me the new mechanic and the proper play style? Please show me a appropriate LRM build, along with skill node allocation, and a brief summary of LRM play style and strategy for driving wins with an LRM build.

Edit: Removed useless words and cleaned up statement

Edited by OmniFail, 25 August 2019 - 02:47 PM.

[Feral Clown]

OmniFail, on 25 August 2019 - 02:43 PM, said:

Hmmm...

No, no, I'm a noob. Could you explain to me the new mechanic and the proper play style? Please show me a appropriate LRM build, along with skill node allocation, and a brief summary of LRM play style and strategy for driving wins with an LRM build.

Edit: Removed useless words and cleaned up statement

No.

You made false claims previously about being better than some twenty odd thousand players, and consider yourself an 'edge lord', made a troll thread about not sharing armor displaying ego without understanding and success to back it, and clearly the above is dripping with sarcasm as somehow like Dex you've convinced yourself that you are good.

So not going to waste my time on a noob that doesn't fully appreciate that he is in fact a noob. (hate the term noob by the way, I am old and it is silly)