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If Pgi Released I.s Omnimechs How Should They Be Implemented To Avoid Being Too Weak/powerful?


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#1 Armored Yokai

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Posted 19 August 2019 - 06:55 AM

My suggestion would be to give the I.S Omnimechs a special quirk that gives them XL survivability, but they do not get the super bonuses as standard battlemechs and get very little to nothing like the clans. Every Omnimech comes with double heatsinks that can be removed to compensate for the lack of criticals, but their skeleton and armor cannot be changed.











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#2 Nightbird

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Posted 19 August 2019 - 07:08 AM

Just sufficient agility to spread damage is enough, with standard IS survival quirks.

#3 FLG 01

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Posted 19 August 2019 - 07:09 AM

Just stay away from the trash like the Avatar, and take the good ones like the Raptor, Men Shen and Black Hawk-KU. No special quirks needed, just the regular quirks IS Mechs usually (should) get.

#4 Snowhawk

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Posted 19 August 2019 - 07:47 AM

If Pgi Released I.s Omnimechs How Should They Be Implemented To Avoid Being Too Weak/powerful?

I corrected it for you…. Posted Image Posted Image

#5 Armored Yokai

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Posted 19 August 2019 - 07:50 AM

View PostFLG 01, on 19 August 2019 - 07:09 AM, said:

Just stay away from the trash like the Avatar, and take the good ones like the Raptor, Men Shen and Black Hawk-KU. No special quirks needed, just the regular quirks IS Mechs usually (should) get.

Personally I'd go with this Mechpack release if it was possible
Sunder, Black Hawk, Firestarter(Omni), Raptor
These mechs offer a huge amount of hard points and will be devastating in fighting clan mechs
if they get the XL survivability.

#6 FRAGTAST1C

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Posted 19 August 2019 - 07:51 AM

As long as they can accelerate and decelerate based on their actual top speed and have good agility in the torso department, then they will be good. Don't make them like the Warhammer IIC and the Kodiak currently are.

#7 Armored Yokai

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Posted 19 August 2019 - 07:54 AM

View PostFRAGTAST1C, on 19 August 2019 - 07:51 AM, said:

As long as they can accelerate and decelerate based on their actual top speed and have good agility in the torso department, then they will be good.

I like the Idea of giving the Sunder the torso speed of a fully skilled Locust, but that would be way too strong.

#8 Willard Phule

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Posted 19 August 2019 - 08:03 AM

View PostFRAGTAST1C, on 19 August 2019 - 07:51 AM, said:

As long as they can accelerate and decelerate based on their actual top speed and have good agility in the torso department, then they will be good. Don't make them like the Warhammer IIC and the Kodiak currently are.


No worries. The Warhammer IIC and Kodiak are Clan battlemechs and therefore deserving of the nerf hammer. IS omnis won't have that problem.

#9 FLG 01

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Posted 19 August 2019 - 08:08 AM

View PostArmored Yokai, on 19 August 2019 - 07:50 AM, said:

Sunder, Black Hawk, Firestarter(Omni), Raptor

Firestarter Omni is not the worst, but it has limitations like two fixed flamers.

The Men Shen without using MASC is just as fast as the Firestarter, faster with MASC, and it has more podspace (14t vs 12t, with 100% armour) despite its fixed equipment (BAP and MASC). So it is faster and has greater firepower. I would say the Men Shen also has far better geometry judging from the Firestarter in game, and better hardpoint placement.

I mean, I would take the Firestarter especially as I am a Lyran fan, and it is not terribly bad, but objectively speaking if you want the best... that is the Men Shen.

#10 Prototelis

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Posted 19 August 2019 - 08:17 AM

I dunno, locked XL and FF sounds like garbage to me.

#11 Armored Yokai

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Posted 19 August 2019 - 09:20 AM

View PostFLG 01, on 19 August 2019 - 08:08 AM, said:

Firestarter Omni is not the worst, but it has limitations like two fixed flamers.
I mean, I would take the Firestarter especially as I am a Lyran fan, and it is not terribly bad, but objectively speaking if you want the best... that is the Men Shen.

I don't really see much in the Men Shen tbh
Firestarter will be able to remove the center weapons like the Garygolyle & Adder and will also be able to change armor values.
The LMG Men shen sounds nice but I'm getting the Idea it will end up like the Black Lanner, fast but very big.
For me the Firestarter should be the size ranging from Wolfhound to Hunchback and will at least have some fast torso twisting and reverse speeds.

MenShen 9 Energy at max locked Masc 0 jump
Firestarter 11 Energy at max nothing is locked 70.2m in MWO jump distance

Men Shen =Obese Black Lanner
Omnistarter = Irritating peekaboo roach that spams 11 Spl/7ML1LL3ERSL/x2 ERPPC/7MPL and is strong in cover scattered areas like cities or hibernal rift

#12 MechaBattler

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Posted 19 August 2019 - 09:36 AM

Can the Omnistarter even cool 11 energy weapons fast enough to be worth it?

#13 Verilligo

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Posted 19 August 2019 - 09:56 AM

View PostArmored Yokai, on 19 August 2019 - 09:20 AM, said:

I don't really see much in the Men Shen tbh
Firestarter will be able to remove the center weapons like the Garygolyle & Adder and will also be able to change armor values.
The LMG Men shen sounds nice but I'm getting the Idea it will end up like the Black Lanner, fast but very big.
For me the Firestarter should be the size ranging from Wolfhound to Hunchback and will at least have some fast torso twisting and reverse speeds.

MenShen 9 Energy at max locked Masc 0 jump
Firestarter 11 Energy at max nothing is locked 70.2m in MWO jump distance

Men Shen =Obese Black Lanner
Omnistarter = Irritating peekaboo roach that spams 11 Spl/7ML1LL3ERSL/x2 ERPPC/7MPL and is strong in cover scattered areas like cities or hibernal rift

The Omnistarter can't peek for crap compared to the Men Shen, though. All of the Omnistarter's guns are fairly far below cockpit level, whereas the Men Shen has its weapons at cockpit height or above. Even if you don't force the Omnistarter to keep its flamers, it has 3 tons of JJs and 2 additional tons of DHS that are all locked. The Men Shen is just the better mech. Though I'll admit I have difficulty putting any faith in either of them, being as you're looking at likely some heavy focus on energy and IS DHS are so large you may have trouble stuffing enough cooling in them.

#14 FupDup

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Posted 19 August 2019 - 10:48 AM

First wave should be Raptor, Men Shen, Black Hawk KU, and Hauptmann because they're less dependent on quirks than the other stuff (and with this game on life support now, expecting PGI to quirk things is even more futile than it was before).

#15 Armored Yokai

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Posted 19 August 2019 - 10:54 AM

View PostVerilligo, on 19 August 2019 - 09:56 AM, said:

The Omnistarter can't peek for crap compared to the Men Shen, though.

Men Shen will be larger and while the high mounts make it "good" it gets ruined by the huge body it possesses and it's above the cockpit, you are a masochist to even want to trade with that thing. With the Omnistarter you wont be much bigger than a Wolfhound and that will help tremendously with a 53 damage build! Men shen wont be able to jump to avoid attacks and will most likely get popped by an Atlas whereas a Omnistarter will just jump onto buildings or just outright avoid fire!
The fast peekaboo traders like the Wolfhound are not very fun to deal with and mechs large like the Black Lanner but have high burst aren't as problematic.
/ [ # ] \
Men Shen = 0[ ooo ]0
-----------
|| ||
{-}
Omnistarter = l[ ]l
o --- o
|| ||

Crap formatting...

Edited by Armored Yokai, 19 August 2019 - 10:55 AM.


#16 FupDup

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Posted 19 August 2019 - 10:59 AM

Omnistarter spreadsheet:
Posted Image

Men Shen spreadsheet:
Posted Image

The Omnistarter's advantage is having JJs. Otherwise Men Shen gets more pod space, critslots, horizontal mobility and mounting height. Men Shen's max hardpoint capability is a bit higher (10 vs. 8) but this is variant dependent for both of them.

The profile thing is debatable since some bullet-nose mechs are tanky and others are not while some humanoids are tanky and others are not.

I'd put my money on the Men Shen.

Edited by FupDup, 19 August 2019 - 05:47 PM.


#17 Armored Yokai

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Posted 19 August 2019 - 11:24 AM

View PostFupDup, on 19 August 2019 - 10:59 AM, said:

Bulletnose

Yeah, I do not see a bullet nose. Thing is flat and large like a deformed cardboard box!
The legs do not have a waist and Alex will probably give it one like the King Crab. Let's not forget the 3D modeling of MWO,
the body just may be as big as the dropship on River City. I don't see the Men Shen performing better than the Bushwhacker either...

Only one I have faith in doing well is the Omnistarter if the variants and models are done right. Then it will be the best 45 tonner you can get your hands! Posted Image (no need for a Komodo)

#18 FLG 01

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Posted 19 August 2019 - 04:07 PM

View PostMechaBattler, on 19 August 2019 - 09:36 AM, said:

Can the Omnistarter even cool 11 energy weapons fast enough to be worth it?

That is easy to calculate.

If you were to use all 11 energy HP, you can carry no more than 13 DHS. How much cooling can 13 DHS do with 11 energy weapons?

The thing is, the Firestarter-O has an XL engine, taking up three crits in each ST. And it also has three jump jets per side torso. Now if you mount that energy hardpoint in the side torso, too, you are limited to one (1) DHS per side torso.
You can ignore the torso hardpoints and get two DHS per ST, but that is still not effective, because then your limit is fourteen (14) DHS. Worse, fixed ES crits, especially in the LT, further ruin your day.

Just run the numbers. Do a 7 MPL build for example: you can run 14 DHS at max, and even that only by dropping your armour significantly. ...more than I would be willing to.

Yes, the number of energy hardpoints looks tempting at first. But fixed equipment and ES quickly puts an end to the energy boat fantasies.
When choosing an IS OmniMech one has to be extra careful, and do the math first.


View PostArmored Yokai, on 19 August 2019 - 09:20 AM, said:

For me the Firestarter should be the size ranging from Wolfhound to Hunchback and will at least have some fast torso twisting and reverse speeds.

We have 45t humanoid Mechs in game, so we can safely infer its size: it will be easy to hit. And seeing the Firestarter, I do not put any faith in its geometry.

The Men Shen on the other hand has a smaller frontal profile and its components will be harder to single out thanks to its pod-shaped torso. It will be easier to hit from the sides, of course, but I prefer pod-shaped designs any time.
It also can mount more tonnage for weapons than the Black Lanner, while being the same weight. Both are fast 55t Mechs, but the Men Shen is neither as ridicolously fast nor as short on podspace as the Black Lanner. That comparison seems very strange to me, and frankly aimed at belittling the potential of the Men Shen rather than actually analyzing it.
(Funny enough, when I told people the Black Lanner would not be good in MWO, I was confronted with a lot of denial...).

See, I know you rarely play mediums. That's fine. I do play mediums a lot. And I have played many 55t Mechs with this kind of engine. I have also played a number of 45t Mechs as energy boats. Your builds are either ineffective or, more often, will simply overheat. (see above).
You also don't need to trust me. Just take 30min to calculate the numbers correctly and in detail, including fixed crits and how many DHS you can actually mount.

-

Edited by FLG 01, 19 August 2019 - 04:08 PM.


#19 Kiran Yagami

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Posted 19 August 2019 - 04:15 PM

"Too powerful" is highly unlikely. Clan omnimechs are the weakest of the clan mechs. Clan battlemechs outshine omnimechs in all aspects. Clan omnimechs outshine IS battlemechs. Imagine how garbage IS omnis would be.

#20 LordNothing

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Posted 19 August 2019 - 04:23 PM

well you can start by getting rid of the hardpoint cap that is has that clans can usually completely circumvent. being able to use >11 medium lasers or stack absurd machine gun numbers (like the piranha).

compensate with strong base stats. like boost torso speed when you have to deal with a locked xl engine. free armor (ala bushwacker) for std locked mechs.

reduce crit requirements for forced upgrades.

and of course quirks.

Edited by LordNothing, 19 August 2019 - 04:23 PM.






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