118 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

Mystere, on 29 August 2019 - 05:08 PM, said:

Poptarting could have been dealt with by giving jump jets a forward vector -- and only a forward vector. They decided to destroy JJs instead, among other things.

Well all they needed to do back then was link PPC/Gauss for ghost heat. Which they ended up doing anyway. So I see no reason why jumpjets cant be unnerfed now.

[Feral Clown]

Mystere, on 29 August 2019 - 05:01 PM, said:

Just to intercede here ...



QP was originally never meant to be THE GAME. It was merely supposed to be just a filler until the real game -- COMMUNITY WARFARE -- was released.

Well, the rest is history.

PGI is not completely to blame there however.

Turns out most people want quick play, not drop decks and the other parts of what we ended up getting.

[Feral Clown]

Khobai, on 29 August 2019 - 06:24 PM, said:

Well all they needed to do back then was link PPC/Gauss for ghost heat. Which they ended up doing anyway. So I see no reason why jumpjets cant be unnerfed now.

This perfectly highlights your terrible thinking.

You continually want the game dumbed down for lowest common denominator, you want chess to be checkers.

What you should have been focused on and pushing for was a proper PSR system that rated players with limited knowledge and understanding of the game, such as yourself, in an accurate manner so that matchmaker could function correctly.

If players of similar skill were facing off, gauss/ppc wouldn't have been such an issue and the game would be better for it. I mean you can't even properly identify what the counter to it was, other than poptarting back. That's an issue, and these compound and make the game worse and worse the more it is dumbed down.

[Khobai]

Feral Clown, on 29 August 2019 - 06:49 PM, said:

This perfectly highlights your terrible thinking.

No it highlights your inability to understand that 50+ PPFLD alphastrikes from long range dont belong in the game. Theres very good reasons why PPCs/Gauss were linked for ghost heat. And why they will never be unlinked.

Feral Clown, on 29 August 2019 - 06:49 PM, said:

You continually want the game dumbed down for lowest common denominator, you want chess to be checkers.

And theres a reason all video games across the industry have been dumbed down compared to games from the 90s. Gamers used to be a narrow target audience, it was mostly your low-EQ high-HQ antisocial nerd types. So back then you could market intelligent games and do well. But nowadays gaming has become way more mainstream and expanded into almost every social group imaginable. Its not just sweaty nerds anymore. Which has had the effect of dumbing down the audience considerably. Thats why the farmvilles and hello kitty island adventures have done so well.

Appealing to the lowest common denominator has become the defacto key to success in every walk of life whether its business or politics. Because the vast majority of people are part of the lowest common denominator. Your highest chance for success comes from appeasing the widest crossection of players. A lesson PGI failed to heed by not keeping PUGs happy.

The truth you dont want to face is that if PGI dumbed down their game more it would probably still have players. Theres dozens of really dumb games on steam that have way more average players than MWO... MWO chased away most of its player base by being an unbalanced overcomplicated mess that not only lacked appeal for casual gamers but also forced them to play against elite groups/units if they dared to try anything other than quickplay.

Feral Clown, on 29 August 2019 - 06:49 PM, said:

What you should have been focused on and pushing for was a proper PSR system that rated players with limited knowledge and understanding of the game, such as yourself, in an accurate manner so that matchmaker could function correctly.

I have a better understanding of the game than you apparently since you dont even understand why disallowing high damage PPFLD alphastrikes at long range was necessary. Its one thing to allow high PPFLD at short range like dual heavy gauss because its short range incurs high risk. But high damage PPFLD at long range incurs far less risk and being long range makes it far easier to focus fire. Thats why they got rid of it because PGI wanted high PPFLD alphas to come with proper risk/reward.

Feral Clown, on 29 August 2019 - 06:49 PM, said:

If players of similar skill were facing off, gauss/ppc wouldn't have been such an issue

Thats completely false. Poptarting was an issue even at the highest levels of play. It was the dominant meta and it stagnated gameplay because every other way of playing the game was inferior. The best counter to poptarting was to poptart better.

PGI didnt just get rid of poptarting because casuals disliked it. There were elite players that hated it too.

Poptarting is never coming back. You need to get over it.

But again I do think jumpjets should be unnerfed. With PPC/Gauss being linked for ghost heat theres no need for jumpjets to remain suppressed.

Edited by Khobai, 29 August 2019 - 11:11 PM.

[Feral Clown]

Khobai, on 29 August 2019 - 10:22 PM, said:

No it highlights your inability to understand that 50+ PPFLD alphastrikes from long range dont belong in the game. Thats precisely why PPCs/Gauss were linked for ghost heat. And why they will never be unlinked.

I have a better understanding of the game than you apparently since you dont even understand why disallowing high damage PPFLD alphastrikes at long range was necessary.

That is completely false. Poptarting was an issue even at the highest levels of play. It was the dominant meta and it stagnated gameplay because every other way of playing the game was inferior. The best counter to poptarting was to poptart better which made the playstyle even more dominant.

PGI didnt just get rid of poptarting because casuals disliked it. There were elite players that hated it too.

No it doesn't highlight my inability at all, and like I said you continually want the game dumbed down.

In current state of power creep it is absolutely possible that it may return.

You don't get the game, you only feel it was necessary because you lacked the skill and understanding to appreciate or pull off it's counters which you still fail to identify.

You also can't speak to what elite players wanted, especially the majority of them. You also have no clue what was an issue at high levels and comp leagues were free to limit it and with chassis rules and such there were already limits.

Top level guys that I know did take issue with outliers such as dual peeps, dual gauss and no one I know is trying to bring that back. However, people have been on PGI to reverse it and go with a combo of three because despite your lack of understanding this it is far from OP especially in today's game.

You are absolutely not qualified to say what does or doesn't belong in the game. Making this game checkers so you can feel good about yourself ruins the game.

As I stated you absolutely should have been spending your efforts on pushing PGI to fix PSR and matchmaker. Instead you have continually focused on things that you haven't any clue about. Again prime example is you can't even currently identify what the strongest energy weapon in the game even is. The very idea that ermeds are dominant is absurd.

[Kroete]

Feral Clown, on 29 August 2019 - 06:33 PM, said:

PGI is not completely to blame there however.

Turns out most people want quick play, not drop decks and the other parts of what we ended up getting.

Most people dont want to be involved too much in a game.
They just want to login and play a few matches against even enemys.
They just want to have some relaxing and fun after the work.
Getting stoped by organized groups or comp players is not much fun.

QP is the only queue where you dont have groups and the comps blend better in by 12vs12, then in 1vs1 solaris. PGI is to blame for the fail, they dont seperated pugs from groups in cw and the pugs have only one queue where they can play with out beeing tossed against organized groups.

Seems it was a fail for pgi to cater for the small minority and letting the majority out of their plans ...

Edited by Kroete, 30 August 2019 - 01:35 AM.

[Feral Clown]

Kroete, on 30 August 2019 - 01:27 AM, said:

Most people dont want to be involved too much in a game.
They just want to login and play a few matches against even enemys.
They just want to have some relaxing and fun.
Getting stoped by organized groups or comp players is not much fun.

QP is the only queue where you dont have groups and the comps blend better in by 12vs12, then in 1vs1 solaris. PGI is to blame for the fail, they dont seperated pugs from groups and the pugs have only one queue where they can play with out beeing tossed against organized groups.

Seems it was a fail for pgi to cater for the small minority and letting the majority out of their plans ...

Aren't there big MMO's that pretty much cater to guilds and such?

I can't even begin to speak on what PGI's plans or vision was other that seeing what CW was supposed to be on an old video compared to what we actually got.

PGI also didn't cater to the minority. The majority want quick play. They don't want CW how it was implemented on many levels. PGI even tried to make it more pug friendly but the implementation was questionable at best.

CW was also allegedly end game content. Most casuals in games don't dive in or invest that heavy into games.

CW also had a clear focus on units and at times although never the majority of players, had a thriving community. A lot of the changes that dumbed down CW for casuals ended up shooting them in the foot since the majority of casuals don't put the effort into drop decks or even minimal strategy. Just look at the current predominant strategy in quick play as an example of this.

Also no one was left out, quick play due to player demand more than anything has remained the focus of this game and clear the player base is just not the same as other games which have a lot more social aspects and interaction.

[Kroete]

MWO is no mmo, its a mix between shooter, simulation and arcade. Or do you call cod a mmo too?


The very big mojority are casuals, lots of them are old guys, not a few of them are nerds, they just want fun and relaxing, stompy robots and even matches. For them qp are giving more even matches then playing against groups (cw) or comps (solaris).

So you are right they want qp, but only because there is no alternative for them,
but do they realy want it if there is no alternative?


And for a pug friendly cw, a seperated queue all was needed, not that intended fail they tryed to sell us and that killed cw for groups and did nothing for pugs.

Edited by Kroete, 30 August 2019 - 02:19 AM.

[Feral Clown]

Kroete, on 30 August 2019 - 02:07 AM, said:

MWO is no mmo, its a mix between shooter, simulation and arcade. Or do you call cod a mmo too?


The very big mojority are casuals, lots of them are old guys, not a few of them are nerds, they just want fun and relaxing, stompy robots and even matches. For them qp are giving more even matches then playing against groups (cw) or comps (solaris).

So you are right they want qp, but only because there is no alternative for them,
but do they realy want it if there is no alternative?


And for a pug friendly cw, a seperated queue all was needed, not that intended fail they tryed to sell us and that killed cw for groups and did nothing for pugs.

The way the first did it the implementation was awful.

Even then however in the one week it lasted, the solo queue was no where near the numbers quick play had. What you aren't accounting for is not only did pugs not want to face groups (which I can't really blame them) the average player hated the seige maps. Seige maps required coordination especially when attacking and it was very clear most casuals were having none of it.

[Bud Crue]

In re the last several posts about CW...

Speaking as a casual player who just wants to fart around with my nostalgia driven virtual toys with other like minded folks, I think CW was the most casual friendly to the extent it could be casual friendly back during phase 2.

CW was the majority of my play up until phase 4, and I played it a lot. The vast majority of those I played with and against were not particularly good at the game, and yet we still had a blast. If some of the higher level players and their folk were consistently being matched against our drunk terribad selves, we just up and went to another planet to try and find folks that were more on our lower level of play. It was that element of choice (yes, another population dividing bucket) that made the mode work for casual play.

It was still somewhat casual friendly with Phase 3, but the awfulness of Long Tom drove just about everyone away regardless of skill or unit size.

But when they took away the relief valve of being able to select different planets to drop on, that is what killed it for most of the casuals I know/knew; and I think this killed some of the better units as well, since they were then starved of opponents, and so they left too. Certainly, there were many other factors that helped drive the casuals away (the focus on merc play, and the effective elimination of faction identity, which in turn made loyalty pointless, killed the fun for the lorenerds, as one example), but I can say, that NO ONE I actually played with EVER complained about pop-tarting, giant units being OP, Gauss/PPC being the bane of our existence, or high alphas killing the game. Frankly, most of us casuals were unaware that these things were a “problem” and were just as pissed as the competitive minded folks when PGI mucked about with them.

Anyway, most of the folks I played with for years in CW -both my fellow casuals and the more competitive minded folks- have left the game entirely. If the changes PGI made to CW over the years were intended to be attractive to either casuals or comp-minded folks it would seem that they failed.

Edited by Bud Crue, 30 August 2019 - 03:10 AM.

[Khobai]

Feral Clown, on 29 August 2019 - 10:43 PM, said:

You don't get the game, you only feel it was necessary because you lacked the skill and understanding to appreciate or pull off it's counters which you still fail to identify.

Once again the only counter to poptarting was to poptart yourself. That is why it became the dominant meta. There were no other counters to it. If there were other counters PGI wouldnt have had to nerf it.

[K O Z A K]

Khobai, on 30 August 2019 - 08:50 AM, said:

Once again the only counter to poptarting was to poptart yourself. That is why it became the dominant meta. There were no other counters to it. If there were other counters PGI wouldnt have had to nerf it.

lmao

[Khobai]

Hazeclaw, on 30 August 2019 - 10:33 AM, said:

lmao

you laugh but im 100% right. if there were counters to it then there would be absolutely no reason to nerf it. you need to dont nerf things that can be countered. Even PGI doesnt nerf things for no reason, theres always some basis behind it, they just have a bad tendency to overnerf or nerf things in the wrong way.

Also keep in mind im not talking about a single player poptarting. obviously that could be countered. im talking about poptarting as an entire team-based strategy. Where a whole group of mechs would pop up simultaneously and instantly obliterate an enemy mech with multiple coordinated alphastrikes.

The whole problem with long range PPFLD and why PGI had to do something about it is because how easy it makes it for teams to focus fire down enemy mechs. Poptarting made that even worse because it also minimized the exposure time of those mechs. It became the most optimal way of playing the game. It created a meta that wasnt fun for casual players and was absolutely stagnant for competitive play. A lot of times teams would just camp and wouldnt even move out of their deployment zones which eventually led to PGI having to change the competitive gamemode to conquest to prevent all the camping that was going on.

Again Poptarting is gone forever. You people need to get over it.

Edited by Khobai, 30 August 2019 - 11:10 AM.

[K O Z A K]

Khobai, on 30 August 2019 - 10:43 AM, said:

you need to dont nerf things that can be countered

PGI: "hold my beer"

[Ssamout]

Khobai, on 30 August 2019 - 10:43 AM, said:

eventually led to PGI having to change the competitive gamemode to conquest to prevent all the camping that was going on.

Stop speaking out of your arse. YEah, I know, fat chance to that to happen but still.. To claim that PGI had to change competitive gamemode to conquest? Lol.

And that u couldnt counter poptarts does not really surprise anyone. They were not such a problem you are making it sound.

[Feral Clown]

Khobai, on 30 August 2019 - 08:50 AM, said:

Once again the only counter to poptarting was to poptart yourself. That is why it became the dominant meta. There were no other counters to it. If there were other counters PGI wouldnt have had to nerf it.

This is why you should stop trying to talk about things you don't have a grasp on.

There were in fact other counters, and saying that there wasn't and that was PGI's reasoning is abject stupidity.

Again you should have been focusing on being able to play with others at your level, not weapon balance which you have little understanding of.

Khobai, on 30 August 2019 - 10:43 AM, said:

you laugh but im 100% right. if there were counters to it then there would be absolutely no reason to nerf it. you need to dont nerf things that can be countered. Even PGI doesnt nerf things for no reason, theres always some basis behind it, they just have a bad tendency to overnerf or nerf things in the wrong way.

Also keep in mind im not talking about a single player poptarting. obviously that could be countered. im talking about poptarting as an entire team-based strategy. Where a whole group of mechs would pop up simultaneously and instantly obliterate an enemy mech with multiple coordinated alphastrikes.

The whole problem with long range PPFLD and why PGI had to do something about it is because how easy it makes it for teams to focus fire down enemy mechs. Poptarting made that even worse because it also minimized the exposure time of those mechs. It became the most optimal way of playing the game. It created a meta that wasnt fun for casual players and was absolutely stagnant for competitive play. A lot of times teams would just camp and wouldnt even move out of their deployment zones which eventually led to PGI having to change the competitive gamemode to conquest to prevent all the camping that was going on.

Again Poptarting is gone forever. You people need to get over it.

LMAO even harder.

You are 100% right only in your head which is probably a very scary place to live.

Edited by Feral Clown, 30 August 2019 - 01:33 PM.

[PhoenixFire55]

Wow. Just how much butthurt by poptarting one was so he keeps hating it so much 6 years after it disappeared ... lol
One-shotted-by-35-alpha-balance-expert-wannabe ...

[Mystere]

Ssamout, on 30 August 2019 - 11:28 AM, said:

They were not such a problem you are making it sound.

I say it was a problem *enough* to compel PGI deal with it. Unfortunately, their execution was absolutely terrible -- as was the usual whenever they performed nerfs due to an outcry. But then again there was also much rejoicing afterwards from a not so insignificant segment of the player population.

Edited by Mystere, 30 August 2019 - 01:41 PM.

[Alloh]

So I confirmed with a few other units... they no longer can find group games, so they are resorting to SYNC DROP.

A little time ago was uncommon to see players from an unit on both sides. Now it's common...