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Is It Time For Bots Yet?


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#21 JediPanther

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Posted 10 September 2019 - 12:59 PM

View PostFunky Bacon, on 10 September 2019 - 07:51 AM, said:

Bots? Have you forgotten the "Escort" mode? Tho I would not blame anyone for removing that from memory, but still.

Agree full heartly with this and was thinking exact same thing. That pos weaponless 100 ton paperweight couldn't even go down a path right. I can't descride in words how ****** that mode was as defenders with the attackers having such a huge advantage of defenders as their suicidal dumber than a rock "vip" often walked straight ahead into an enemy fire line or the enemy alpha lance got behind it in a flank and tore it a new a-hole.

And to top it off even if you did somehow manage a win the pay was total ****.

https://imgur.com/gallery/5bCs3

#22 LordNothing

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Posted 10 September 2019 - 03:57 PM

why? there are plenty of potatoes to play against.

Edited by LordNothing, 10 September 2019 - 03:58 PM.


#23 GeminiWolf

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Posted 10 September 2019 - 04:30 PM

View PostVellron2005, on 09 September 2019 - 11:02 PM, said:

So, seeing as player population is low, group queue is hard to get into...

Is it time for A.I bots yet?

Would you guys like that? Could it save the game?

Direct competitor games like Vox Machinae already use Bots when there are not enough people on..

Why not MWO?

I guess A.I. is something PGI should have mastered by now, when we're just months away from MW5 mercs release..

I think Bots would be a good thing..

I am not confident it would work...can you imagine 4 real players and 8 Escort Bots on your team...the rage would be real.

#24 Davegt27

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Posted 10 September 2019 - 08:28 PM

my name is davegt27 and I am a bot

#25 Anjian

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Posted 10 September 2019 - 09:12 PM

View PostDavegt27, on 10 September 2019 - 08:28 PM, said:

my name is davegt27 and I am a bot



Maybe you are. Usually a name that starts with a first name followed by a number, see David1431, is likely a name of a bot.

#26 Vellron2005

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Posted 10 September 2019 - 11:34 PM

To all the people reminding us of escort and academy A.I...

The point of the post is that PGI is supposed to be much more proficient at coding A.I now that MW5 is near release?

I always hope they take what they learned and apply it elsewhere.. Be it mech modeling skill, A.I coding, or all the ideas they adapted from feature suggestions to MW5..

The idea is that once MW5 is out, they can work on Clan invasion DLC and keep funding development by extending MWO shelflife, until they either make MW5 PVP Solaris DLC, or MWO2..

Bots would surely extend the shelf-life of MWO and could open up new avenues of making existing modes, like Solaris, viable, but also adding PVE content..

MWO need not be PVP exclusively..

Edited by Vellron2005, 10 September 2019 - 11:34 PM.


#27 GeminiWolf

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 01:56 AM

AI with a completely different game engine...they don't have anyone left who know how to use the MWO engine....so again it would be a bunch of Escort AI on your team

#28 Kotzi

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 02:10 AM

Well TTK would be awesome at least.

#29 TWIAFU

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 05:11 AM

Most players are not smart nor good enough to play and win against BOTS.

#30 Sjorpha

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 09:10 AM

View PostVellron2005, on 10 September 2019 - 11:34 PM, said:

To all the people reminding us of escort and academy A.I...

The point of the post is that PGI is supposed to be much more proficient at coding A.I now that MW5 is near release?

I always hope they take what they learned and apply it elsewhere.. Be it mech modeling skill, A.I coding, or all the ideas they adapted from feature suggestions to MW5..

The idea is that once MW5 is out, they can work on Clan invasion DLC and keep funding development by extending MWO shelflife, until they either make MW5 PVP Solaris DLC, or MWO2..

Bots would surely extend the shelf-life of MWO and could open up new avenues of making existing modes, like Solaris, viable, but also adding PVE content..

MWO need not be PVP exclusively..


That's assuming a lot, first that PGI has managed to make the AI in MW5 so good that it could plausibly mix in with humans in a pvp setting. I really doubt that, there isn't really such a thing as good AI in games yet when it comes to completely unscripted behavior. Most of the time the sequences in games that are perceived to have convincing AI are where the AI is carefully scripted to the environment, for example in Alien isolation etc.

I would be extremely surprised if MW5 had AI worth a damn, even by single player standards. Now I do hope I'm wrong here, but there are almost no games with convincing AI as I said, it is the biggest missing thing in the game industry IMO as everything else has reached a high level but AI is still crap. Now maybe we'll see neural networks becoming commonplace in consumer products in a couple years and maybe then they will take over in games too and we might have a shift towards actually convincing AI. I hope so.

But let's assume MW5 AI is good enough to fill out teams against human players, and let's also assume the transfer and implementation of MW5 AI into MWO is trivial and cheap enough, and that MWO has a long enough predicted lifespan for PGI to bother doing it.

Let's assume all that for the sake of argument and the question still remains when would you actually pull that AI into matches? At what point of waiting time is it actually preferable to add a bot over waiting for another player to fill the match? 5 minutes? 10 minutes? Matches are still firing way faster than that so I'm not sure how there is even a need for AI. And if we get to a point where it is actually difficult to put a match together that would also mean the population is so low that it wouldn't make much sense to keep the game going anyways.

I suppose you could let AI take over disconnected mechs, that's honestly the only realistic place for AI in MWO that I can see.

You're not going to see any serious PvE content for MWO like missions or even training scenarios vs bots, even if that would be nice it's a major investment beyond what can reasonably be expected. You'll see stuff that can be done with XML edits and that's it, possibly new mechs, that has already been true for a year and development is winding down not ramping up.

#31 Sarsaparilla Kid

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 10:51 AM

As I suggested in another thread, how about a variable size for group drops? If the MM can't make up a 12-man on each side within so many minutes, then start counting down from there to see if it can make 2 11-mans or 2 10-mans, etc., down to 4v4 if necessary. Other games have this implemented when population sizes are low during off-peak times, such as World of Tanks/Warships.

#32 Prototelis

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 12:00 PM

The issue isn't whether or not the developer is proficient at something. Proficiency is something you can buy.

Consider this;

1. Their license to the engine; IE the version they got, may not have the provisions necessary for AI or bots complicated enough for the gameplay
2. None of their maps contain the provisions necessary for bots. (there are, as far as I can tell, no nodes for bots to path over)
3. The overhead on even simple bots is pretty ******* intense
4. It was never a design goal to have functioning AI/bots

What does that all mean? It means they'd have to spend a **** ton of money on a game without a guaranteed return. They aren't going to do it.

This whole game has been crowdfunding and asset development for another game; MW5

Edited by Prototelis, 11 September 2019 - 12:01 PM.


#33 LowSubmarino

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 03:08 PM

Which bots you talking about. The skynet level escort bot or the massively improved mw5 bots that aimlessly tumble about in front of the player?

Which one is it?

#34 Imperius

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 06:57 PM

View PostVellron2005, on 10 September 2019 - 11:34 PM, said:

To all the people reminding us of escort and academy A.I... The point of the post is that PGI is supposed to be much more proficient at coding A.I now that MW5 is near release? I always hope they take what they learned and apply it elsewhere.. Be it mech modeling skill, A.I coding, or all the ideas they adapted from feature suggestions to MW5.. The idea is that once MW5 is out, they can work on Clan invasion DLC and keep funding development by extending MWO shelflife, until they either make MW5 PVP Solaris DLC, or MWO2.. Bots would surely extend the shelf-life of MWO and could open up new avenues of making existing modes, like Solaris, viable, but also adding PVE content.. MWO need not be PVP exclusively..
PGI really didn't have to code AI in for Unreal its baked in the engine and they may have to add parameters but it's already done for the most part for them.

View PostTWIAFU, on 11 September 2019 - 05:11 AM, said:

Most players are not smart nor good enough to play and win against BOTS.
This is true because at least the bots would have a decent loadout, heat management, and the ability to not miss.

#35 FRAGTAST1C

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 07:15 PM

View PostSjorpha, on 11 September 2019 - 09:10 AM, said:


That's assuming a lot, first that PGI has managed to make the AI in MW5 so good that it could plausibly mix in with humans in a pvp setting. I really doubt that, there isn't really such a thing as good AI in games yet when it comes to completely unscripted behavior. Most of the time the sequences in games that are perceived to have convincing AI are where the AI is carefully scripted to the environment, for example in Alien isolation etc.


Ehh... F.E.A.R and the first HALO are good e.g., of competent AI on highest difficulty capable of avoiding, engaging and behaving smartly when in combat. Even Return To Castle Wolfenstein had some decent AI behaviours.

Now, I'm not saying that PGI have done something like that for MW5. But there have been games that have had very good AI in FPS.

#36 Sjorpha

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 07:51 PM

View PostFRAGTAST1C, on 11 September 2019 - 07:15 PM, said:


Ehh... F.E.A.R and the first HALO are good e.g., of competent AI on highest difficulty capable of avoiding, engaging and behaving smartly when in combat. Even Return To Castle Wolfenstein had some decent AI behaviours.

Now, I'm not saying that PGI have done something like that for MW5. But there have been games that have had very good AI in FPS.


When enemies in pve games behaves convincingly, it is not the same as being able to behave convincingly as a player replacement in a pvp setting. There are a number of scripted shortcuts and tricks that allow for that seemingly intelligent behavior, but isn't actually adaptive ai but more about clever pathfinding and triggered behavior, especially in linear missions. I didn't find halo 1 ai very smart BTW, it just did its thing no matter what I did, not humanlike at all imo. It is also a huge difference between ai designed to feel like a pvp enemy character (like those halo enemies panicking and running around etc) and ai capable of adapting its behavior towards trying to win as a team member in a competitive setting.

In the same manner convincing ai in mw5 pve would not necessarily translate to functional player replacements in mwo. My guess is mw5 ai will be about as crap as the old Mechwarrior titles, and likely worse because the old titles had linear missions that allowed for clever scripting to boost the impression of the ai while mw5 with its random maps don't have that advantage. But hey let's hope it's great, that would be awesome.

The research done with networks like alphastar shows promise though, as that kind of tech becomes mainstream it'll be a huge game changer. Especially for strategy games as competent AI in strategy games is basically non-existent apart from chess engines and the recent experiments with go, Dota and starcraft. How awesome would it be to have ai that could add actually be difficult to beat without having resource cheats and such in games like civilization, dominions 5, total war and so on.

#37 Mystere

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 07:56 PM

View PostSjorpha, on 11 September 2019 - 07:51 PM, said:

How awesome would it be to have ai that could add actually be difficult to beat without having resource cheats and such in games like civilization, dominions 5, total war and so on.


That would actually be bad for business, really bad. How many players will want to continue losing to a machine?

#38 Sjorpha

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 08:10 PM

View PostMystere, on 11 September 2019 - 07:56 PM, said:


That would actually be bad for business, really bad. How many players will want to continue losing to a machine?


You can easily dial the strength of ai back. For example in the alphastar testing they have added humanlike constraints to the max actions per minute and seconds and limiting its access to information to what it can see on the map and so on, and it's working really well. You can also limit the calculation depth as much as you want, and add random information decay or whatever to introduce humanlike mistakes.

Basically "too strong" ai is a non issue, you can have a completely gradual difficulty setting for the player to choose from. The difference is that instead of giving a stupid ai dumb cheats and extra free resources to simulate strength as those games do currently, you would be constraining a smart ai back down to suit your level of skill, which a completely different experience.

#39 Mystere

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 08:15 PM

View PostSjorpha, on 11 September 2019 - 08:10 PM, said:

You can easily dial the strength of ai back.


Ok then.

However, I was under the impression you meant having an AI free of constraints. Posted Image

#40 FRAGTAST1C

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 09:12 PM

In some games like Crossout, the filler spots are made up of AI. They're not the best but they're ok for the most part. There's also a co-op mode where players fight against waves of AI while completing certain objectives. Surely the second part would be reaching to pull off but just filler-spots type of AI would be enough to keep some people satisfied in private matches at least.





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