126 replies to this topic

[Monkey Lover]

Kroete, on 11 September 2019 - 12:46 AM, said:

Defense will allways work against nascar, if the team would work together and build a fireline.
Nascar works because you dont need any teamwork, its like dogs chasing the slowest rabbid,
no thinking or tactic involved, just pure instinct.

Old and still matching:

First off this isn't comp Q so talking about comp level skills doesnt matter. Comp level control of the map is what matters.



In pug and group Q most the time the fast moving team "nascar" to the flanks of the defense and before the defense at the ends can react the attacked side is dead and the middle is almost dead. Not like anyone is talking over voip about how they should be pulling and pushing.

Most of these "nascar" teams have a lance dead before the defense is even setup.


Aggressive teams win the match 9 out of 10.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 11 September 2019 - 01:49 AM.

[justcallme A S H]

Curccu, on 11 September 2019 - 01:37 AM, said:

But doesn't that mean he learned the lesson?

Hhahaha well we both know the answer is...

Of course not.

Kroete, on 11 September 2019 - 12:46 AM, said:

Defense will allways work against nascar, if the team would work together and build a fireline.
Nascar works because you dont need any teamwork, its like dogs chasing the slowest rabbid,
no thinking or tactic involved, just pure instinct.

Yep, exactly.

When I can be bothered to get on comms and get our team to setup a firing line - which is rare these days - it's a fairly certain win because the dummies on the other team are just going to rotate into you one by one.

Monkey Lover, on 11 September 2019 - 01:41 AM, said:

Most of these "nascar" teams have a lance dead before the defense is even setup.

Aggressive teams win the match 9 out of 10.

Ah what? You setup a line to receive the NASCAR with Assaults. So it does not take any time at all as you move TO Assaults. And thus the "aggressive" team that wants to mindlessly rotate - loses.

I mean I won something like 50-2 when I just ran a bunch of games using comms. Wasn't hard, just had to constantly tell at least 4-5 people to NOT rotate constantly and of course deal with "experts" telling me I was wrong.

12-0 stomps spoke for themselves however.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 11 September 2019 - 03:55 AM.

[Bud Crue]

For some reason I feel like adding my two cents:

Here is what I see when I am forced to play QP:
Lights immediately take off. Typically to the right. Then nearly the entire team (I use that word colloquially in the sense that the “team” is just a bunch of randos on the same side) proceeds to follow the lights. Often, one or two mechs, usually assaults, just stand in place at the DZ for a good minute. The lights who took off at the beginning, encounter the enemy and either quickly get dropped or run back to the main body tailing them. Either way the rest of both teams now all proceed to NASCAR against the other side because they did the complementary actions on their side. If the two schmucks who held back at the beginning haven’t yet been killed off by a stealth Flea (etc.), they come lumbering in (single file of course) after every other friendly is dead or nearly so, only to be quickly focused down by the remaining enemies, who, with their armor sharing advantage, are still very much alive.
12-4 loss

The alternative is the HPG occurrence: Game starts, everyone moves in and goes toward the assaults. So far so good. Someone (me) mutters, with a tone of depressed inevitability tinged with irrational hope and longing: “I’m taking the top, please, please come with me and hold it.” Everyone who is willing to speak, responds with their version of “affirmative”. We all make it to the mid level. I and those nearest to me hit the ramp, we get to the top...and then I look at the minimap and see roughly 9 mechs going around to the right side. 12-3 loss

In GQ (when we can get matches), we all tend to blob up, midrange exchange for a bit, with strikes galore, and then someone gets impatient (me) and we end up in a brawl. Alternative here, is that if a well known top tier player/group is in the match folks tend to be a bit hesitant and try and follow their lead (which is hard because most of these guys seem to go coms silent outside of their TS or Discord fellows), and so many times the match is a long range peak and poke that evolves into several smaller localized scrums, and only a final collective brawl/push once one side has a clear deficit. Some well known groups will do goofy stuff like take HPG basement and pop out the side to flank/die, or always drop in lights to go wolf pack, or like these lovely people (/s) last week running 3 LRM Awsomes and hanging in the back.

So yeah bad behavior all around just different kinds of bad. But I’ll take GQ bad, over QP bad any day. And believe me I know bad behavior.

[Kubernetes]

justcallme A S H, on 10 September 2019 - 09:38 PM, said:

Running away from the enemy and getting shot in the back / running around the same fixture on the map game after game / letting assaults get picked by lights is.......

A tactic that... Works?

And that ladies an gentlemen, is why NASCAR is a thing - people actually think it works

It does work 50% of the time, which ain't bad.

Nascar is simply the default in SQ when there is no communication, because there's no team cohesion or trust. It isn't great, but it beats no plan at all.

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

Kubernetes, on 11 September 2019 - 07:15 AM, said:

It does work 50% of the time, which ain't bad.

Nascar is simply the default in SQ when there is no communication, because there's no team cohesion or trust. It isn't great, but it beats no plan at all.

true. sadly, it's not a satisfying game-experience, either.

[General Solo]

justcallme A S H, on 11 September 2019 - 12:30 AM, said:

That is exactly the reason it is at fault though. You just spelled it out.

You have 100T mechs running 48km/h. "We nascar coz of dead weight"...
You have 80T mechs running 65-70km/h.

It's only dead weight (literally) because said slower mech with ALL the gunz needs support.
The reality is that the faster Assaults leave the slower ones behind and meanwhile the support lights only running 97km/h and Meds are somehow at the front rather than supporting the rear/flanks like they should be because they cannot win a light fight outright.

All because of your exact attitude "its not the nascars fault". It is the single cause and reason. Look at the maps...

Mining. Everyone just charges the centre and then runs around it.
Canyon. Everyone just charges the low ground and then runs around the Theta/Centre
Tourmaline. Everyone again arounds around the centre spire
Caustic. Almost always a rotation around the single rock that is 100m wide in D5.
Grim. Just a rotation fest around the centre buildings.
The ONLY map that really doesn't have this issue is Terra Therma simply because you cannot. I mean, low skill users still try and do it via G8 and inevitably lose.

Anyone tries to take up a power / control position in the game, 9/10 times, they get left behind mindbogglingly dumb rotations away from said positions.


This is all due to a massive lack of knowledge and skill of MWO Gameplay from a lot of players in the game and to many lower skill players rising to Higher Tiers simply because they mass 20,000 games. Not because they are any good.

Games never used to be this much of a rotation fest. But then then the overall skill was higher circa 18/24 months ago and you'd often get 3-4 good players able to work together.

Now that's extremely rare.

You misunderstand what I mean by dead weight.

Dead weight is not the slower mechs

Its the useless slower mechs

Its a charlie lance that splits up to the four winds and get sub 100 damage
Its charlie lance consisting of 4 assault mechs that cant shoot and kill a target under 2 minutes
A charlie lance that takes 30 seconds to move from the start

Slow has nothing to do with my definition of dead weight

(Edit: takes less than a minute to ascertain that so then u decide, to nascar or to focus fire)

Edited by OZHomerOZ, 12 September 2019 - 02:04 AM.

[Omniseed]

Kroete, on 11 September 2019 - 12:46 AM, said:

Defense will allways work against nascar, if the team would work together and build a fireline.
Nascar works because you dont need any teamwork, its like dogs chasing the slowest rabbid,
no thinking or tactic involved, just pure instinct.

Old and still matching:

Yeah, NASCAR only 'wins' when both teams do it rather than when one team tries it and the other just shoots them for their trouble.

Seriously, in 90% of pug matches that don't go well, the one and only thing that needed to happen was the team needed to be shooting back instead of waddling off into the sunset like Samwise and Frodo.

[K O Z A K]

If you click that qp button you will play nascar and you will like it, qp is the racing game portion of mwo

If you want to play robots fighting you have to play fp or comp

Don't show up to a racing circuit with a tank and get mad you don't get to shoot, there's a reason everyone else has race cars. Winning conditions in qp are not who kills the other team, its who does more circles, that is all

[Ikester]

Yeah, when my pug group decided to nascar I tried to protect the flank. (Tried is the operative word.) If you can't change the groups mentality about nascar...I fall to the old saying...When in Rome ..............
LOL
Now, which Mech should I take down to the bikini mech wash....

Wishing everyone well.

[LowSubmarino]

Its bad assault and heavy pilots that are the biggest problem. I can easily check right side for reds slow and potential stragglers and come back if that wont work cause red team wont do those basic mistakes in a fast skirmisher. Slow mechs that stretch or move to any position are ez targets and once they decide on a certain position - individually most of the time sadly - they cant really alter that plan. They usually underestimate speed on a massive scale. Most of them stoically 'follow'. In ultra slow mechs. Instead of building a core formation of several assaults and heavies. They wanne play assaults and heavies like lights and mediums. Which just doesnt work. Once enemy engages them they cannot disengage anymore.

Their fight iq is usually weak as well. Like...bad to say it diplomatically. If I trade in center for instance, in a slow mech, in any mech, and one or more guys and and girls trade from a bit further back on our left side (reds main nascar route) and I then decide to randomly break of that central front...

Those mechs that provided suppression and crossfire....are all dead. Dead as in terninated. Most players I see never see those things and randomly move without a brain.

Canyon network. I hammer entire approaching assault and heavy lance almost right from start with double gauss/ppc. Preventing the initial rather timid attempt to push around the center in a standard nascar move. I know ill prolly die there after maybe three mins. The position is juicy though. I can land alpha after alpha. 2 mech have orange and red torsos 1 min into the game. Our boys in center can trade in the center with no fear of big mechs charging their left flank via ramp or the narrow path right arounr the center. Because 5 + mechs are being suppressed and block each other as the 1 - 2 front mechs push a bit again and again only to twist and tumble backwards ss they get double gauss in their faces again and again.

Any pilot with an iq of 25 would immediately see that the night gyr suppresses the entire left rotation attempt. And that I will be dead of they shift the front because without their los cover (maybe 300 - 400 meters away) my survival probability will drop dramstically
I didnt even expect that my team would identify and understand the massive advantage of reacting to friendly and enemy positioning. And im way, waaayyy too lazy to constsntly state the obvious:

See that pilot? See those mechs?

They all dead if you all break formation at this time. They all dead and who you think will be next when they dead?

Most mwo pilots are cowards like ive rarely seen in any game. They see one lone catapult and 4 big mechs start the slowest snd dumbest chase in the history of dumb and slow mech and man hunts. Ever so slowly but derermined they stomp stomp stomp towards one mech thats far away. All the while their supporting crossfiring or suppressing flank collapses. You see, team red saw all of that with thirsty eyes and you hear hollering and battle cries. Some of the more brainy red pilots smell bloof.

Absolut mayham, death screams and the smell og erupting engines and burning flesh floods the godless battlefield. Its disgusting. Brutal and over mercifully quicly.

And then I smile a bit as I read:

'Great match maker....gj pgi, another stomp'.

Those very ppl do the same mistakes over and over again. They wouldnt understand if theit lifes depended on it. Theres also a considerable fraction that 'sees' immediately what seems appropriate and what seems like the dumbest possible mistake. They immediately use such formations (eg. crossfire scenario) to preserve your mechs and to pressure reds formation or nascar attempt. Od say 70 % doesnt 'see' **** and 30 % thinks before moving. Majority wanders about aimlessly. Thats why I rarely ever play slow mechs but in turn play mechs and builds that are designed to massively exploit this....playstyle.

I hunt abandoned and isolated slow mechs that make major positioning mistakes or are left for dead by a dumb team. Its prolly not special but that strat that doesnt require best aim or skills gave me place 200 - 300 in jarls for a number of seasons. Not too bad I think. If Id push it and only played my best builds and tried hard I believe I could push into the the range of top 100 - 150 with that pathetically ez strat.

Thats how ez it is to farm ppl that make those mistakes in literally every single match. Qp match I mean. And no, im not joking. In literally every ! Single match.

It is by far the easiest strat to win the stats so often that you realize you start telling yourself youre a ruthless demon that devours mechwarri....errr....mechpilots.

Dont fool yourself though.

Try not to get arrogant.

Any toddler could pull that off.

[Monkey Lover]

justcallme A S H, on 11 September 2019 - 03:52 AM, said:

Hhahaha well we both know the answer is...

Of course not.



Yep, exactly.

When I can be bothered to get on comms and get our team to setup a firing line - which is rare these days - it's a fairly certain win because the dummies on the other team are just going to rotate into you one by one.



Ah what? You setup a line to receive the NASCAR with Assaults. So it does not take any time at all as you move TO Assaults. And thus the "aggressive" team that wants to mindlessly rotate - loses.

I mean I won something like 50-2 when I just ran a bunch of games using comms. Wasn't hard, just had to constantly tell at least 4-5 people to NOT rotate constantly and of course deal with "experts" telling me I was wrong.

12-0 stomps spoke for themselves however.

At the same time I have seen you run a pack of srm mechs into assaults and wipe them out. You're in a different skill level.

When you don't have a team half+ full of comp players with a drop caller being Aggressive wins.

[justcallme A S H]

LowSubmarino, on 11 September 2019 - 02:00 PM, said:

Its bad assault and heavy pilots that are the biggest problem. I can easily check right side for reds slow and potential stragglers and come back if that wont work cause red team wont do those basic mistakes in a fast skirmisher. Slow mechs that stretch or move to any position are ez targets and once they decide on a certain position - individually most of the time sadly - they cant really alter that plan. They usually underestimate speed on a massive scale. Most of them stoically 'follow'. In ultra slow mechs. Instead of building a core formation of several assaults and heavies. They wanne play assaults and heavies like lights and mediums. Which just doesnt work. Once enemy engages them they cannot disengage anymore.

The Assaults and (occassionally) slow heavies are forced to follow because they have been left alone game after game. The hive mind has well and truly taken over. Thus Assaults spend more time walking than shooting because they have no support.

No or limited support becuase their friendly mechs are "flanking" or "getting an angle" means they are constantly eaten up by light mechs that dikhug them to death without any support from Lights/Meds and similarly mobile mechs.

It is chicken and egg. In this case the Med/Lights running off YOLO Flanks is what is causing the problem.
If support lights, supported. This whole problem would be gone as Assaults wouldn't need to spend 3/4 the game @ 100% throttle.

[Dauntless Blint]

It used to be (before the skill-tree update) That a dakka assault could smash the tip of the enemy spear in a rotation, stall and even stop it if supported by even one guy.

Now that damage and heat have been nerfed since those days assaults just get broken by rotation.

People aren't afraid of them any more. They are sitting ducks.

The whole point of an assaults ability to survive is it's firepower. Armor is secondary to position and firepower always has been and nascar proves it especially with assaults.
Nascar + some maps break assaults so badly people Alt+F4 or just afk on a regular. It wasn't like this years ago.

I fell in love with the KGC a long time ago and it's relatively garbage now. I just play it for nostalgia.

As an old assault main this game is in the worst position it's ever been.
No one cares about faction play or Solaris 7.
Why they couldn't just make procedural generated maps with all that resource is unfathomable.(It's infinite content)
Imagine never having to play the same map ever? It would at least be consolation for them not being able to balance their game.
I could never take faction play seriously because one side has inferior firepower and movement and even arguably geometry on average across the board.
The board game is designed off of asymmetrical factions, which is fine on TT but in an evenly numbered match of mechs piloted (1 for 1) it's straight garbage balance wise because one side is missing a whole lance of asymmetric value on the field.

What assaults generally can't do: Nascar, poptart, poke, jink/serpentine, which each equal a measure of invulnerability of which their armor values will never match.
That is why their sustained firepower is the only thing that keeps them alive. They can barely roll/twist off damage these days too, making armor even less valuable and smart players just wait as the defensive movement is so slow it's always predictive.

Itelics: Understanding Assault mechs 101. They are not tanks. They are glass cannon's (worst hit boxes) that need to force an over-match to survive.

[justcallme A S H]

Monkey Lover, on 11 September 2019 - 04:23 PM, said:

At the same time I have seen you run a pack of srm mechs into assaults and wipe them out. You're in a different skill level. When you don't have a team half+ full of comp players with a drop caller being Aggressive wins.

I am not talking about GroupQ here.

In GroupQ its almost a certain win if you simply put 4 decent players into a team these days.

Again - due to the mass exodus of overall skilled players leaving over the past 12/18months.

Dauntless Blint, on 11 September 2019 - 05:42 PM, said:

It used to be (before the skill-tree update) That a dakka assault could smash the tip of the enemy spear in a rotation, stall and even stop it if supported by even one guy. Now that damage and heat have been nerfed since those days assaults just get broken by rotation.

Except Dakka right now is the META and extremely strong because of the heat buffs to dakka equipped mechs?

[L057FUNC710N]

Nascar is not really the underlying issue.

The real issue is the general skill level is so low and people don't understand when to hold a good position, or when to turn and fight because you are being overrun.

But what can you really expect when the bottom third of the population performance wise easily make it into tier one?

[justcallme A S H]

Kol Koontz, on 11 September 2019 - 06:01 PM, said:

Nascar is not really the underlying issue.

The real issue is the general skill level is so low and people don't understand when to hold a good position, or when to turn and fight because you are being overrun.

But what can you really expect when the bottom third of the population performance wise easily make it into tier one?

Exactly.

[GeminiWolf]

I wonder how much of a "player skill" increase you get when you have a ping under 50, great computer hardware, a extreme gaming mouse, and a giant monitor which allows you to see a spec of a mech in the distance without having to zoom. Im sure, like my Son who is an ace with any shooter I've ever seen him play, there are players who don't need those things. But I am curious how many of the top players, or the players that consider themselves "Skilled" actually have those things. Also I am curious if they are "skilled" at any other games or are they called Potato's like they refer to others here. Just a random thought that popped into my head. Because I do have a good gaming rig and such which makes my performance way better than it should be, and honestly that's not saying much based on my Jarl's list LOL....can you imagine if I didn't have a good RIG, OMG I probably would be last on that list Ha!

[Dauntless Blint]

justcallme A S H, on 11 September 2019 - 05:50 PM, said:

I am not talking about GroupQ here.

In GroupQ its almost a certain win if you simply put 4 decent players into a team these days.

Again - due to the mass exodus of overall skilled players leaving over the past 12/18months.



Except Dakka right now is the META and extremely strong because of the heat buffs to dakka equipped mechs?

How many Assaults do you see breaking a rotation these days? I'm not arguing with the meta, just where it is from where it was. Effective arty plus a dakka fatty used to be able to stall an enemy rotaion and force your own nascar bois into a running skirmish early because they had already caught the tail. You even sometimes got a counter nascar charge out of your assault guys. I seldom see something like that in Q.P. today.

[Dauntless Blint]

There are misconceptions about player skill too. The guys you sync drop with, the tool you use, the build you choose, your ping, hit reg, and internet quality effect this game horrendously. Being a big fish in a small pond syndrome.

[Kubernetes]

GeminiWolf, on 11 September 2019 - 06:15 PM, said:

I wonder how much of a "player skill" increase you get when you have a ping under 50, great computer hardware, a extreme gaming mouse, and a giant monitor which allows you to see a spec of a mech in the distance without having to zoom. Im sure, like my Son who is an ace with any shooter I've ever seen him play, there are players who don't need those things. But I am curious how many of the top players, or the players that consider themselves "Skilled" actually have those things. Also I am curious if they are "skilled" at any other games or are they called Potato's like they refer to others here. Just a random thought that popped into my head. Because I do have a good gaming rig and such which makes my performance way better than it should be, and honestly that's not saying much based on my Jarl's list LOL....can you imagine if I didn't have a good RIG, OMG I probably would be last on that list Ha!

I played for years on an old laptop and thought I was an okay player. Upgraded to a decent desktop rig and realized I was a lot better than I thought. Getting decent frame rates and being able to see enemies clearly makes a big difference.