406 replies to this topic

[thievingmagpi]

please never compare mwo to Hallway Runner ™

[Tesunie]

Horseman, on 05 November 2019 - 09:08 AM, said:

In-game skill levels do not indicate the value of someone as a person, true.

You'd be surprised how many people bash others (on a personal level), because X stat is at Y level, when it should be Z.

Too many people have tried to use stats as a "If you aren't X good, don't bother posting", which is arguably wrong. That's all I'm really getting at. I don't mind people gauging advise based upon a player's average performance, but at the same time don't be too quick to "dismiss" a lower skilled person's advise.


I've also had people use my general stats to refute a point I'm trying to make, rather than looking at the specific build with mech stats being provided which are more relevant to the conversation at hand. Some people do act like your general stats show how you run with a specific weapon/build/loadout/mech like you run that mech exclusively...

You name it, I've seen stats used to try and bring that person down and prove them wrong, even when stats have nothing to do with it. "Tag works like this." "You are wrong, it works like this." "Your stats are bad, so you are wrong." "Wait... what?" (Also seen PSR tier used like this as well...)

thievingmagpi, on 05 November 2019 - 09:21 AM, said:

please never compare mwo to Hallway Runner ™

....
?

I'm a little lost and confused here...

[MTier Slayed Up]

GuardDogg, on 05 November 2019 - 05:10 AM, said:

^^^
Man, then they say I have problems in the forums. Look who writes a whole page. Better off writing a book in trying to explain. You are just as bad (actually worse) as I am when it comes to the forums. Maybe you should be in the same Tier as me in MWO. Same Tier, but up further in the bar. Hey!..I looked up your stats. LMAO!! Not laughing at your stats or any ones. Just pointing out a obvious problem. ;-)

Instead of tackling your hypocrisy you basically just pass it off that everyone else is the problem?

No wonder you still suck.

[CFC Conky]

Tesunie, on 05 November 2019 - 09:31 AM, said:

You'd be surprised how many people bash others (on a personal level), because X stat is at Y level, when it should be Z.

Too many people have tried to use stats as a "If you aren't X good, don't bother posting", which is arguably wrong. That's all I'm really getting at. I don't mind people gauging advise based upon a player's average performance, but at the same time don't be too quick to "dismiss" a lower skilled person's advise.


I've also had people use my general stats to refute a point I'm trying to make, rather than looking at the specific build with mech stats being provided which are more relevant to the conversation at hand. Some people do act like your general stats show how you run with a specific weapon/build/loadout/mech like you run that mech exclusively...

You name it, I've seen stats used to try and bring that person down and prove them wrong, even when stats have nothing to do with it. "Tag works like this." "You are wrong, it works like this." "Your stats are bad, so you are wrong." "Wait... what?" (Also seen PSR tier used like this as well...)



....
?

I'm a little lost and confused here...

Good point.

I have no doubt some players have an excellent grasp of the subtleties of this game even though they might not have the best stats. The best coaches are not always good athletes and good military historians/tactics instructors, etc might not be Red Barons/Micheal Wittmans/*insert your favourite ace here*.

That said, it’s sometimes hard to separate the wheat from the chaff around here.

Good hunting,
CFC Conky

Edited by CFC Conky, 05 November 2019 - 09:47 AM.

[thievingmagpi]

Tesunie, on 05 November 2019 - 09:31 AM, said:

You'd be surprised how many people bash others (on a personal level), because X stat is at Y level, when it should be Z.

Too many people have tried to use stats as a "If you aren't X good, don't bother posting", which is arguably wrong. That's all I'm really getting at. I don't mind people gauging advise based upon a player's average performance, but at the same time don't be too quick to "dismiss" a lower skilled person's advise.


I've also had people use my general stats to refute a point I'm trying to make, rather than looking at the specific build with mech stats being provided which are more relevant to the conversation at hand. Some people do act like your general stats show how you run with a specific weapon/build/loadout/mech like you run that mech exclusively...

You name it, I've seen stats used to try and bring that person down and prove them wrong, even when stats have nothing to do with it. "Tag works like this." "You are wrong, it works like this." "Your stats are bad, so you are wrong." "Wait... what?" (Also seen PSR tier used like this as well...)



....
?

I'm a little lost and confused here...

Hallway Runner aka Warframe

Edited by thievingmagpi, 05 November 2019 - 09:46 AM.

[Tesunie]

thievingmagpi, on 05 November 2019 - 09:45 AM, said:

Hallway Runner aka Warframe

I was kinda thinking that, but wanted to be certain.

You may not like Warframe, but that doesn't mean some aspects of the game where done well. (Then again, you may call it Hallway Runner and still like the game... I guess.) I'd also point out how well that game seems to be doing, and how long it seems to have been around.

[Dee Eight]

Tesunie, on 05 November 2019 - 07:50 AM, said:

When a Yian Kut Ku went from being this deadly prey to, even with the same old gear on, a minor nuisance you can easily beat because you know how it now moves... that really adds to the sense of accomplishment.

T A E K W O N V in the six AC/2 KCG... deadly until you learn he only uses it with an XL engine and is usually alone at the back of his team and thus to always shoot the shoulder to kill him faster, preferably using a piranha standing behind him.

As to the matchmaker subject, at this stage given how small the player pool has become they might as well throw it out completely and just go with random teams where the only balance is weight classes of mechs on each side.

Edited by Dee Eight, 05 November 2019 - 10:10 AM.

[dario03]

Vxheous, on 05 November 2019 - 07:03 AM, said:

What the "matchmaker" has been observed to be actually doing is poor matching being made worse as unskilled players eventually filter into Tier 1 over time. That makes for a poor matchmaker. If the system cannot differentiate between a player of Bows3r's caliber, and a player of GuardDogg's caliber, and assume they're equal (they're not, regardless of what the Tier 1 badge says) then you are going to have unbalanced matches, over and over. Which is what we have now.

The PSR system is Garbage In, Garbage Out, which is why quick play games are such Garbage. Right now, the PSR system can throw 5 EmP players onto team 1, maybe another EmP player on team 2, along with names like GuardDogg, Khobai, Dee Eight, Dimento Graven (I'm choosing players listed as Tier 1 in this thread, not name and shaming, this also assumes I can actually get 4-5 players from EmP to actually want to play quick play at this point). Team 1 will roll Team 2 99 times out of 100 games, even with the most basic of comms. That is inherently inbalanced as a matchmaker, yet even last one of the players is listed as Tier 1 and the matchmaker assumes every player listed is the same skill level.

Instead, if we actually had proper metrics to place players into proper skill tiers, then the above scenario wouldn't happen. Assume all 6 EmP players in queue remained Tier 1, and the other players named were marked Tier 2 (just for easy maths). All of a sudden, the matchmaker ends up throwing 3 EmP caliber players onto each side, and splits the others 2 per side. Now you actually have a balanced match because the relative skill level across both teams is roughly equal.

I'm making an extreme example using EmP as a metric, I'm not saying that only players that are on EmP's level should be Tier 1 (that would make for an extremely small Tier 1 group). What I'm saying is that there should have better metrics to sort players into appropriate Tiers so that the matchmaker can make properly BALANCED teams for quick play purposes.

Outside of the getting 6 in qp this isn't actually even an impossible example. I have actually had something similar to this happen. I remember once years ago when qp population was pretty good I had a match that without even trying to sync drop put me with 4 or 5 of my comp team and the enemy got either 1 or 0 from mine and don't think they had any from another team either. And yeah the match was lopsided.

Edited by dario03, 05 November 2019 - 10:23 AM.

[Tesunie]

Dee Eight, on 05 November 2019 - 10:06 AM, said:

As to the matchmaker subject, at this stage given how small the player pool has become they might as well throw it out completely and just go with random teams where the only balance is weight classes of mechs on each side.

As far as my understanding (and experience) goes for current MM, the queue times for solo play are not an issue. It's often still easy to find solo QP matches. The issues are more so:
- PSR doesn't appear to be ranking players by actual skill performance (or Player Skill Ranking...).
- MM tends to place people of vast disparity of actual performance together.
- Group Queue/play has a long waiting time due to a lack of population (since the announcement of a stopping of serious work on MW:O, at least till MW5 is finished).

So, what needs correction doesn't seem to be MM itself (nor it's removal), but how the game determines PSR scores and it's increase/decrease from actual performance. I say this as solo QP seems to be operating well enough at the moment.

[GuardDogg]

DrtyDshSoap, on 05 November 2019 - 09:35 AM, said:

Instead of tackling your hypocrisy you basically just pass it off that everyone else is the problem?

No wonder you still suck.

LMAO!...I proved a point, what I been saying all along. "You still suck"
You walked into that one. The one who calls other hypocrisy. The Tier System made you salty.

Edited by GuardDogg, 05 November 2019 - 11:46 AM.

[Tesunie]

GuardDogg, on 05 November 2019 - 11:24 AM, said:

LMAO!...I proved a point, what I been saying. "You still suck"
You walked into that one.

Ummm... pestering people until someone says the line you've been "setting them up for" is not exactly proving a point. You've been decrying negative language when, honestly, I've seen very little negativity towards you in this thread (as a whole)... It's not surprising when someone gets tired of what you are saying (which is rather slightly off topic) and do exactly what you've sent out to do...

PSR ranking is not an indicator on the value of a person. It's not suppose to be an insult nor slight towards a player. Not even statistics are an indication of the person themselves, only how they operate as an average within the game.

If someone gets insulted because their PSR level is low... That's on them. If people are insulting another player ONLY because their PSR level (or stats, or...) is low, that's called harassment at that point. However, you've basically been painting a giant bullseye on your forehead in this thread and been daring for anyone to take a shot. When someone does, you "act" shocked about it and that you did nothing wrong...? No.

I've given you a lot of leniency in my dealings with you here. I figured maybe other people were not understanding what you were talking about. Instead, you seem to be in this thread to be a martyr.

Maybe in the next thread we crash into each other, things will be different. But this thread? I'm sorry. I can't believe you anymore...

[GuardDogg]

Tesunie, on 05 November 2019 - 11:49 AM, said:

Ummm... pestering people until someone says the line you've been "setting them up for" is not exactly proving a point. You've been decrying negative language when, honestly, I've seen very little negativity towards you in this thread (as a whole)... It's not surprising when someone gets tired of what you are saying (which is rather slightly off topic) and do exactly what you've sent out to do...

PSR ranking is not an indicator on the value of a person. It's not suppose to be an insult nor slight towards a player. Not even statistics are an indication of the person themselves, only how they operate as an average within the game.

If someone gets insulted because their PSR level is low... That's on them. If people are insulting another player ONLY because their PSR level (or stats, or...) is low, that's called harassment at that point. However, you've basically been painting a giant bullseye on your forehead in this thread and been daring for anyone to take a shot. When someone does, you "act" shocked about it and that you did nothing wrong...? No.

I've given you a lot of leniency in my dealings with you here. I figured maybe other people were not understanding what you were talking about. Instead, you seem to be in this thread to be a martyr.

Maybe in the next thread we crash into each other, things will be different. But this thread? I'm sorry. I can't believe you anymore...

You like me, or you wouldn't call me back in a reply. Lots like me here, and then I was called a troll. Hypocrites. LMAO!! :-)

Their is two types of people on this thread. The real smart (educated) ones, who stay on topic of the thread and do not reply with my quotes, they stay away. Then the the low brains who like to reply under my quotes or use other words regarding myself (Him, the other guy, etc with my info). They like me, enjoy my presence keep pulling me back for more they say, stupid information.

Edited by GuardDogg, 05 November 2019 - 12:23 PM.

[Tesunie]

GuardDogg, on 05 November 2019 - 11:51 AM, said:

You like me, or you wouldn't call me back in a reply. Lots like me here, and then I was called a troll. Hypocrites. LMAO!! :-)

I think you confuse "trying to understand someone else's point of view" and "being polite" with "like you" and "I agree with you".

Right now, I'm seeing you running around with a victim persona. This attitude is what is discrediting you here, not your PSR ranking, your stats nor how they interact with each other. IF you are T1, congrats. So am I. However, T1 doesn't exactly mean we are masters of this game.

PSR T1 is nothing more than a MM category to help build better matches. I'll comment that, despite being T1 and being there for a long while (and yes, according to the current PSR system, I did earn that rank), doesn't mean I'm the same equal in game playing skill as someone like Ash, or maybe even Horseman. Maybe on a good day with my best builds... but on average I am not.

This fact is not an insult to me. It's a fact. This fact, though, does not invalidate what I say on these forums as advice, opinion or statements on the technical functions of an aspect of the game.


I have to agree with Ash that, most likely, I probably should be in T2 by my average game performance, and not T1. This doesn't mean I shouldn't have days where I may be classified as a T1 pilot, just that, as an average, I am not. This, also, does not mean I did not earn my current rank of T1 within the current PSR system... because I obviously have. However, it also does not mean I may not actually "belong" in T1... but without any improvements to PSR there is honestly no way to actually know.

Going by statistics, I've just looked at your Jarl's list. This is something I normally don't do... but I feel it's a must here.
A quick overview of your listing:
- You've never broken above 50%.
- Your average match score is typically under 200. HOWEVER, I will make note that your most recent seasons (last 5 recorded) have seen average match scores above 200. This likely indicates growth.
- You've played a LOT of matches. PSR currently has more ways up and fewer ways down... so match saturation can increase PSR ranking. Not always, but it can.

Now, these are facts on your "average" play. I have a bit of a challenge for you, if you are interested. Take a full month (or even half a month), and play more "serious". Take what you feel are your best performing mechs, and just use them. Do as well as you can. Go for higher match scores. Then, check your stats for that season. I'd hope to see a massive jump in your performance if you take this challenge.

As I mentioned, though stats can be fun to look at, I don't think they are the end all and be all of a player. Many of us don't play serious. I can understand players being able to perform better than their displayed "average". I also will never discredit what a player says simply because of their average stats.

However, and this shouldn't be an insult, you appear to be in much the same situation I am in. You, most likely, should not be in T1 (if you are, as I don't actually know). You should likely be counted in T2. This isn't suppose to be a slight. It's suppose to help pitch you against opponents of more equal skill than you. It's intent is to make matches challenging for each individual player and to enhance fun.

Remember, I've admitted myself that I also probably don't belong in T1, but I am. There is no slight with this. I have earned (with the current PSR system) T1 status. That doesn't mean I want to always face teams of "Ash" level pilots all the time (though, I seem to do alright despite coming into contact with players of his skill level... so there is that which should be said.)

[GuardDogg]

Tesunie, on 05 November 2019 - 12:29 PM, said:

I think you confuse "trying to understand someone else's point of view" and "being polite" with "like you" and "I agree with you".

Right now, I'm seeing you running around with a victim persona. This attitude is what is discrediting you here, not your PSR ranking, your stats nor how they interact with each other. IF you are T1, congrats. So am I. However, T1 doesn't exactly mean we are masters of this game.

PSR T1 is nothing more than a MM category to help build better matches. I'll comment that, despite being T1 and being there for a long while (and yes, according to the current PSR system, I did earn that rank), doesn't mean I'm the same equal in game playing skill as someone like Ash, or maybe even Horseman. Maybe on a good day with my best builds... but on average I am not.

This fact is not an insult to me. It's a fact. This fact, though, does not invalidate what I say on these forums as advice, opinion or statements on the technical functions of an aspect of the game.


I have to agree with Ash that, most likely, I probably should be in T2 by my average game performance, and not T1. This doesn't mean I shouldn't have days where I may be classified as a T1 pilot, just that, as an average, I am not. This, also, does not mean I did not earn my current rank of T1 within the current PSR system... because I obviously have. However, it also does not mean I may not actually "belong" in T1... but without any improvements to PSR there is honestly no way to actually know.

Going by statistics, I've just looked at your Jarl's list. This is something I normally don't do... but I feel it's a must here.
A quick overview of your listing:
- You've never broken above 50%.
- Your average match score is typically under 200. HOWEVER, I will make note that your most recent seasons (last 5 recorded) have seen average match scores above 200. This likely indicates growth.
- You've played a LOT of matches. PSR currently has more ways up and fewer ways down... so match saturation can increase PSR ranking. Not always, but it can.

Now, these are facts on your "average" play. I have a bit of a challenge for you, if you are interested. Take a full month (or even half a month), and play more "serious". Take what you feel are your best performing mechs, and just use them. Do as well as you can. Go for higher match scores. Then, check your stats for that season. I'd hope to see a massive jump in your performance if you take this challenge.

As I mentioned, though stats can be fun to look at, I don't think they are the end all and be all of a player. Many of us don't play serious. I can understand players being able to perform better than their displayed "average". I also will never discredit what a player says simply because of their average stats.

However, and this shouldn't be an insult, you appear to be in much the same situation I am in. You, most likely, should not be in T1 (if you are, as I don't actually know). You should likely be counted in T2. This isn't suppose to be a slight. It's suppose to help pitch you against opponents of more equal skill than you. It's intent is to make matches challenging for each individual player and to enhance fun.

Remember, I've admitted myself that I also probably don't belong in T1, but I am. There is no slight with this. I have earned (with the current PSR system) T1 status. That doesn't mean I want to always face teams of "Ash" level pilots all the time (though, I seem to do alright despite coming into contact with players of his skill level... so there is that which should be said.)

Nicely written, best reply. You wrote everything just right what I been saying. Thank-You. :-)



No one is a loser, no one sucks. Just having bad days, or yet struggling. Some just want to be as they are. No better, no worse. And some who stride to be better, than others.

*

Edited by GuardDogg, 05 November 2019 - 01:24 PM.

[thievingmagpi]

yeah that's cool. I just don't want those people who are having thousands of bad days reaching back 5 + years to be continuously dropped into matches with people who "stride (sic) to be better than others"

[justcallme A S H]

15 pages of GuardDogg trying to justify why he should be in Tier 1 and that PSR is fine.

Amazing.

[K O Z A K]

justcallme A S H, on 05 November 2019 - 01:51 PM, said:

15 pages of GuardDogg trying to justify why he should be in Tier 1 and that PSR is fine.

Amazing.

At this point in the thread I'm pretty sure he's just screwing with you guys, and you all keep taking him seriously

[GuardDogg]

justcallme A S H, on 05 November 2019 - 01:51 PM, said:

15 pages of GuardDogg trying to justify why he should be in Tier 1 and that PSR is fine.

Amazing.

Be nice. Thought you were the smart one. Guess you have joined the others (now bow to them in joining the group). Tesunie said it best and has the last word. It speaks for many. Not just me. You may not see it. But the message is inside the reply. Just leave it.

Edited by GuardDogg, 05 November 2019 - 02:15 PM.

[Gagis]

My every-five-pages reminder that truth does not change simply because you try to get the last word in. That is not how reality works, nor how arguments, debates, discussions or conversations work. You are behaving badly towards others and harming the overall usefulness of the forums and should stop.

Also, I'd like to discuss moderation, but unfortunately I cannot. A certain person's toxic behaviour and bad netiquette might require some policy enforcement action at this point.

[GuardDogg]

Gagis, on 05 November 2019 - 02:26 PM, said:

My every-five-pages reminder that truth does not change simply because you try to get the last word in. That is not how reality works, nor how arguments, debates, discussions or conversations work. You are behaving badly towards others and harming the overall usefulness of the forums and should stop.

Also, I'd like to discuss moderation, but unfortunately I cannot. A certain person's toxic behaviour and bad netiquette might require some policy enforcement action at this point.

Now, you are one of those guys who like to argue (Salt and a troll) of nothing. Write about the main topic, instead of wasting more pages. I have made my point. Tesunie made the last word, and leaving it there.