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Best Ways To Deal Damage?

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#21 John McClintock

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Posted 10 November 2019 - 01:54 PM

I'll post several builds that I think will do well for a new player. Here is a nice RAC2 build. High mount guns so you can keep most of the mech hidden behind a hill.

Since you just started, don't worry so much about shielding, twisting, all that. Focus on NOT MISSING and doing ammo dumps in the ~600 meter range, do full dumps until jam then walk back and hid till you un-jam, and make sure more than one enemy isn't shooting back at you while you do this.

Focus on finding a good hill to hid behind and peak over, keep your legs hidden behind the hill. RAC2s don't jam as fast as rac5s and have a little more range, plus ~50% more dmg/ton on ammo.

When they get close and/or your rac's jam use the medium pulse lasers which have great DPS/ton and relatively low heat/dmg.

Be sure to use skill points for armor and mobility, And get the seismic nodes and uav/airstrike.

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#22 John McClintock

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Posted 10 November 2019 - 02:12 PM

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Had to go with a standard engine to get dual rac5's this will have adequate ammo for a long fight, and 4xsmall pulse for close range and for if you run out of ammo and/or when the rac5's jam at knife fighting range. Small pulse have almost as high dps as medium pulse and low heat generation.
Again, focus on staying below the crest and peaking, use the high ballistic mount to keep your lower half safe, burn up ammo asap. When you jam drop down. You can use ER medium lasers instead of small pulse, it will raise your heat, but let you get more long range damage in.

Edited by John McClintock, 10 November 2019 - 02:13 PM.


#23 John McClintock

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Posted 10 November 2019 - 02:21 PM

Finally got op's mech to load, I would not use that build. ever.

The best way to do damage is high dps weapons, especially the long range ones, especially at lower tiers where there is more sniping.

A single UAC20 not only has low dps/ton it is also short range and prone to jam.

For about the same weight you can have two RAC2s and mroe than double the DPS, plus over twice the useful range. And won't jam for at least 10 seconds or more.

Go to smurfies and check their weapon stats. https://mwo.smurfy-net.de/equipment

#24 Tesunie

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Posted 10 November 2019 - 02:33 PM

View PostJohn McClintock, on 10 November 2019 - 02:21 PM, said:

Finally got op's mech to load, I would not use that build. ever.

The best way to do damage is high dps weapons, especially the long range ones, especially at lower tiers where there is more sniping.

A single UAC20 not only has low dps/ton it is also short range and prone to jam.

For about the same weight you can have two RAC2s and mroe than double the DPS, plus over twice the useful range. And won't jam for at least 10 seconds or more.

Go to smurfies and check their weapon stats. https://mwo.smurfy-net.de/equipment


There are two routes to dealing lots of damage:
- DPS: Stay in combat for as long as can be sustained and deal rapid damage per second engaged. Typically builds for the "long haul".
- Burst: These builds focus on dealing the most amount of damage within a short window of time, even if they require a bit of down time. These are "short term" builds, best for poke and shoot styles of combat, or to just hope to deal a ton of damage within a few seconds before you die.

A DPS build has advantages if it can maintain time focusing on a target. They also tend to be able to outpace other builds because of their longevity designs, running cooler to dish out the damage longer before overheat. However, burst builds (also can be called "Alpha-stirke builds") tend to want to have as low of a window of engagement to reduce enemy reaction times while landing damage quickly.

The OPs build is based more on a burst of damage. A single double tap of the UAC20 can quickly deal 40 damage within short order. Meanwhile, your triple RAC2 build may have better DPS but it can't deal as much damage as an UAC20 can in a single pass...

There is no write nor wrong here. Each path can be used to very good effect, depending upon pilot capabilities and the abilities of the opponents.


This is also why I like my UAC10, two AC2s and quad ML build. It can produce a reasonably large amount of damage quickly with the UAC10 (which can strip armor off), while still dealing reasonable DPS when needed with the AC2s (as well as increased crit changes). The MLs work for a spike of damage as needed, or when ammo runs out (or I lose that right torso). (This is more of an example that there are the extreme sides of the spectrum, as well as many shades in between.)

#25 John McClintock

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Posted 10 November 2019 - 02:54 PM

True, there is no right and wrong, but there is better and worse for a new player.

It's hard enough to hit a target, much less hit a target while twisting back and forth. Plus, it's a slow mech, with no jump jets, you won't be popping in and out from behind corners with it effectively. Better to just step out, do a 8-12 second ammo dump then step back while your guns un-jam.

And there is a lot more sniping at lower tiers.

Since OP already has the 320 light (never use XLs on big slow mechs, despite what "metas" say, lol), I built this up.

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OP, as you get better at heat management and living longer, you can swap heat sinks for more ammo. 5 tons will last a long time, I doubt you will ever run through 7 tons of RAC2 ammo.

#26 Tesunie

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Posted 10 November 2019 - 02:58 PM

As a side note, also consider damage dispersion between the two different style of builds.

DPS builds tend to spray a lot of damage out, but can often get spread across an entire target. Meanwhile, burst styled damage builds often times can deal a larger amount of damage to a single location.

Just, an additional note from my previous post is all.

#27 John McClintock

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Posted 10 November 2019 - 03:02 PM

Never underestimate DPS, burst damage is nice, but there are way too many issues in building a design around torso twisting and stepping behind cover.

There often isn't any cover, what then? And Torso twisting is not some magical thing that will keep you safe.

Far better to out DPS your opponent, and laugh while they torso twist and still die.

Plus when they are getting chewed up by rac2, they won't be able to aim well.

I did this in an unleveled Raven last week.

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Even as an all ammo build I've never ran out of ammo.

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#28 John McClintock

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Posted 10 November 2019 - 03:14 PM

View PostTesunie, on 10 November 2019 - 02:58 PM, said:

As a side note, also consider damage dispersion between the two different style of builds.

DPS builds tend to spray a lot of damage out, but can often get spread across an entire target. Meanwhile, burst styled damage builds often times can deal a larger amount of damage to a single location.

Just, an additional note from my previous post is all.
New players in low tiers (lots more long range sniping) will not be picking off components. Quantity has a quality of it's own. And if the opponent is twisting you'll still chew though their armor.At minimum you will weaken all their armor and leave them vulnerable to someone who can focus.Furthermore, when the end game degenerates into the inevitable furball, DPS is king. Plus RACs are a great suppression weapon, nobody will stand there and take that dmg, they'll run and hide. If they do try and stand there taking it, they won't be able to aim effectively past a few tens of meters, twisting or not.

#29 John McClintock

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Posted 10 November 2019 - 03:33 PM

I rarely blend my Racs, but something like this will burn through an Atlas like butter, at close range, yet still has sufficient long range DPS to be useful in the first 5 minutes. At about 17.5dps ~500 meters, and almost 24dps within 120 meters, it is scary at range and close up.

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#30 Tesunie

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Posted 10 November 2019 - 03:36 PM

View PostJohn McClintock, on 10 November 2019 - 03:14 PM, said:

New players in low tiers (lots more long range sniping) will not be picking off components. Quantity has a quality of it's own. And if the opponent is twisting you'll still chew though their armor.At minimum you will weaken all their armor and leave them vulnerable to someone who can focus.Furthermore, when the end game degenerates into the inevitable furball, DPS is king. Plus RACs are a great suppression weapon, nobody will stand there and take that dmg, they'll run and hide. If they do try and stand there taking it, they won't be able to aim effectively past a few tens of meters, twisting or not.

View PostTesunie, on 10 November 2019 - 02:33 PM, said:

There is no write nor wrong here. Each path can be used to very good effect, depending upon pilot capabilities and the abilities of the opponents.


#31 John McClintock

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Posted 10 November 2019 - 04:20 PM

Just cause there isn't a right and a wrong, doesn't mean there isn't a better and a worse. Yeah, I can make about any build "work" but not every body can, and even if you can make it work, doesn't mean there isn't something better.

OP wants to do more damage.

Doubling or tripling his DPS while increasing his effective range will certainly do that. Since he is new, he probably isn't twisting and poking anyways, so this 5m build will easily double his total dmg.

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Sorry, I just like jump jets too much...

You want burst damage? how about 12 seconds of 20dps (240 damage) bursts. That will nuke most mechs at mid game when they are moderately damaged already. 12 seconds is about how long heat and jamming will allow. If OP can pull off just ~2 of those within 220 meters, that's ~500dmg right there.

Think about how long it takes to

1. expose a heavy mech to take your shot.

Then

2. get back behind cover.

Doing a normal "burst build" he'll be exposed while not firing for a significant amount of time, twisting or not, he'll still be getting hit. With my build he'll get in more (twice as much) damage during that time.

Yes, it will leave him vulnerable to people who can pick off components, but at the same time, they won't be able to easy do that, because of cockpit shake. And the shear factor of nobody will/can stand there and take that punishment. Unless they get lucky they will be far worse off in any exchange.

#32 Void Angel

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Posted 10 November 2019 - 07:20 PM

The crux of your disagreement seems to be what is best for a new player - but I think you should also consider the long-term effect of player skills. If anyone really wants to be their best Mechwarrior, as it were, they do need to know how to destroy components and put rounds on the part of the target they want to hit. On the other hand, if DPS is dominating the meta, then folks need to adopt the meta to be most effective, most times.

Just food for thought.

Edited by Void Angel, 11 November 2019 - 02:29 AM.


#33 John McClintock

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Posted 10 November 2019 - 08:19 PM

Agreed for the most part, although the meta pushes IS XL engines for everything, which is just wrong, IMHO. XL should only be used on lights, or a few rare exceptions with weird hitboxes and profiles, like the rifleman.

#34 Void Angel

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Posted 11 November 2019 - 02:29 AM

I think it's the dps part of the meta that's driving that. If your goal is to just overwhelm the enemy with firepower, then an XL lets you either mount and support more dps, or be more mobile to position that dps where it matters. I prefered LFEs when I was playing regularly, but I haven't been terribly active in a long time.

It could also be a response to Clan 'mechs in the mix. If mobile Omnimechs are performing well on the Clan side, then the Inner Sphere may feel pushed into more mobile builds to keep up with them on the field.

#35 Tesunie

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Posted 11 November 2019 - 07:11 AM

View PostVoid Angel, on 10 November 2019 - 07:20 PM, said:

The crux of your disagreement seems to be what is best for a new player - but I think you should also consider the long-term effect of player skills. If anyone really wants to be their best Mechwarrior, as it were, they do need to know how to destroy components and put rounds on the part of the target they want to hit. On the other hand, if DPS is dominating the meta, then folks need to adopt the meta to be most effective, most times.

Just food for thought.


I actually wasn't in any disagreement with him... despite him being in disagreement with me somehow? All I did was point out the differences between the two styles.

In the end, it's up to the player to decide what they do well in and enjoy more. Each have their place and each can be effective. I will say that there is an advantage to concentrated damage placement, but sometimes just dealing damage is also valuable. This is irrespective of new or older player, as I have builds for both and enjoy them. Newer players can get more out of DPS builds on average because of lower skilled opponents, but even higher skilled players can utilize and enjoy DPS builds.


In relation to this thread, the OP posted a burst style build he "enjoyed greatly". Many of us observed that build and made suggestions or improvements based upon that theme of build. A DPS alternative suggestion is fine, and was never the issue. But then again, I never claimed one path to be "better" than the other... just that they are different from each other and that each have their advantages and disadvantages.

#36 CherokeeRose

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Posted 11 November 2019 - 09:16 AM

I'm not really disagreeing either. There are disadvantages to pure facetime/dps bulds.

But, I've found that the advantages generally outweigh them in most situations.

fwiw I still consider my above build a burst dmg, just has long burst and a long cooldown,

:-P

#37 justcallme A S H

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Posted 11 November 2019 - 09:01 PM

View PostVoid Angel, on 10 November 2019 - 07:20 PM, said:

The crux of your disagreement seems to be what is best for a new player - but I think you should also consider the long-term effect of player skills. If anyone really wants to be their best Mechwarrior, as it were, they do need to know how to destroy components and put rounds on the part of the target they want to hit. On the other hand, if DPS is dominating the meta, then folks need to adopt the meta to be most effective, most times.

Just food for thought.


Best for a new player is ALWAYs aiming for the best, or at least something near it.

So that means builds, play, skill tree etc. If you are going to use under-gunned and poorly thought out builds (mixed ranges) you're going to perform worse every single match, all things being equal.

View PostJohn McClintock, on 10 November 2019 - 01:54 PM, said:

Spoiler


Ah... you only have two RAC2s in that build. You can put 3 on there... Having 2 is pointless for the exposure time. This is a bad suggestion for new players and teaches bad habits.

MAD-3R - That is how you build a RAC2 MAD 3R, or any derivative near/around that by swapping DHS/engine etc around. Running inferior builds means always inferior performance.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 11 November 2019 - 09:01 PM.


#38 justcallme A S H

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Posted 11 November 2019 - 09:08 PM

View PostCherokeeRose, on 11 November 2019 - 09:16 AM, said:

I'm not really disagreeing either. There are disadvantages to pure facetime/dps bulds.

But, I've found that the advantages generally outweigh them in most situations.

fwiw I still consider my above build a burst dmg, just has long burst and a long cooldown,

:-P


Facetime builds for new players is generally a bad idea because they do not understand map positioning/awareness and similar things.

Thus burst and return to cover is the best way to start out.

Once you gain skill, timing and awareness, by all means go and stick your face out for 3-5 seconds and make the most of it because you can. RACs are often not a good choice for beginners because it requires a bit more awareness than just target you are shooting at as there could be many shooting back at you and you need to be then much more attentive due to said facetime.

#39 Void Angel

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Posted 12 November 2019 - 05:50 AM

View Postjustcallme A S H, on 11 November 2019 - 09:01 PM, said:


Best for a new player is ALWAYs aiming for the best, or at least something near it.


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#40 Mr Andersson

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Posted 12 November 2019 - 10:07 AM

View Postjustcallme A S H, on 25 October 2019 - 01:20 PM, said:

As for dealing damage - it is mostly about awareness.
  • Where are enemies?
  • Where are friendlies?
This.

If you are going to learn anything from this thread, make it this.

Situational awareness is hugely important. I cannot stress this enough. It is the main reason why a lot of players struggle to become good. Perfect aim and well constructed mechs can only get you so far.

I would also add a third to the above bullet points, and that is "How is the terrain around you?"





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