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Mw5: My Less Than Stellar Opinion


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#1 Jyi

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Posted 27 November 2019 - 11:01 AM

Warning: this will be a VERY critical look at the demo, but I will also give credit where credit is due. So if any kind of criticism towards this game triggers you, do not read further.

I will start with the general feel of the UI and options: they do their jobs, but it'd be nice to have some extended graphics options and explanations on what they do. There's no "restrict mouse cursor to window" -option for example (for us with more than one screen), even though moving and clicking outside of the window doesn't seem to do anything. So... adequate, I guess? Generally, all graphics and audio options are lackluster, but probably just enough to not be an issue for most. The look of the menus is decent enough. But the music! That's amazing starting right from the main menu. Good job on that!

Moving on to the mission selection and mech lab. They feel unfinished. I don't know how well these reflect the final product on release, but seeing as there's only a couple weeks left to that, I'm not very hopeful. The logic of the pre-mission menus is sometimes incomprehensible.

For example, you save a loadout from the "edit loadout" -menu, but then there's no "load"-button. "What? Where's the load button? You can save the loadouts but can't load them? What's the point... oooh, there's a tab in the mech SELECTION menu called "saved" and that's where they are." So, why can't there be a "load" -button in the "edit loadout" -menu also?

The same weird logic is also available when editing the loadout of a mech. There are tabs called "filter ballistic weapons" "filter energy weapons" and "filter missile weapons"... and then there's "filter ams weapons" and "filter equipment". You put all the PPC's, lasers, pulse lasers etc. under a single filter, not to mention heat sinks, jump jets and all different kinds of ammunition and probably even more unique stuff under "equipment", but you think the like 2 different AMS -options that even exist in the universe deserve their own filter? WHAT?

And there are a couple more things as well. For example, when you are in the pre-mission menu, there's a "back" -button at the lower left corner. When you're in the "edit loadout" -menu, there's a "back" -button at the lower left corner. Even in the "paint mech" -menu, that same "back" -button exists. But when you're in mech selection -menu, there's no "back" -button, there's only a small cross in the upper right corner. This is confusing and breaks the flow. Then, when you select a mech, but decide you want another mech instead, the mech selection -menu doesn't remember what you filtered last time. If, for example, you were looking at assault mechs on page 3, the menu has reset to all mechs and page 1. If you were looking at Annihilator -chassis, the menu has reset to all mechs and page 1. It can get annoying if you were trying to compare different variants of a single chassis.

Now, some of these things are nitpicking, I acknowledge that. But I think bringing attention to them serves to demonstrate the weird logic - or the complete lack of it - that plagues the menus of MW5. This reminds me of the early beta of MWO and its menus, and the evolution those underwent, from barebones and lackluster to the convoluted mess they are today. Thankfully, at least the MW5 menus don't lag (except for some reason sometimes when they are trying to load the paper doll of some mechs).
---

Now, lets move on to the real meat of the game: the gameplay. There's a lot to love and lot to think about here. Firstly, I love the graphics. When I first entered the canyon of the assassination -mission, I gasped. And the sound effects and music here, they are amazing. The stomps of the mechs, the chatter on voice comms, the explosions, weapon sounds and everything is spot on.

The feeling of piloting something heavy is mostly there - except when you get hit. Because there's almost no knockback or any kind of heavy "CLONG!" -sounds. In MWO, when you get hit, you feel it. In MW5, when you lose an arm or half your torso, you don't even notice until you realize you can't shoot half your weapons. Or if you look at the damage you've taken on paper doll.

Talking about damage: the enemy barely does any. I have completed most missions solo. I think most players have by now. Missions that say "difficulty: extreme". And that's not all. I've completed them without even trying while going down the list of mechs towards the lighter end. I've completed some missions with a lance of 3 light mechs. Most of them could probably be done with 1 if you actually tried. Heck, there's even a video of someone completing the raid -mission with Anansi (with stock loadout I think) - and it looks like he was half-assing it while talking with his friends on Discord.

I can't emphasize enough how bad the AI is currently. This is the biggest obstacle for this game to become a great game instead of a mess. Because right now, no matter how beautiful the explosions, no matter how fun the base mechanics or how great the music and sounds are, if the game FEELS hollow and gets old in 30 minutes because you can abuse the AI by accident, it's not going to be a success.

There's no point in bringing your friends for co-op missions if you can't employ any kind of strategy. Or more precisely: if there's no need for strategy to defeat anything. And right now, to me it feels like there isn't.

Talking of strategy and friends, the game lacks some very basic things for co-op to be fun. Enemy targets don't have designations. There's no "target alpha" or "target beta". How is it possible that you have overlooked SUCH A BASIC THING? This is going to be horrible in co-op. It's going to go down like this: "Shoot at the Locust." "Which one?" "The one on the left... no, sorry, now it's on the right." "Left? Right? From which direction?" "My left. Where are you?" "I'm.. over this one ridge here." "Oh, okay, nevermind. I killed the Locust like a minute ago."

Seems like there isn't even an option to reconnect to a co-op game if you get disconnected. What. The. F?

The map can barely be called a map. There are no coordinates of any kind. No "grid C4" or anything. There's ZERO map interaction. You can't even select nav points on your screen. Ordering the AI "to go there" means you need to look at the point where you want them to go. Which is a horrible idea. This was supposed to be a less arcadey, less "twitch fpsy" and more brainy Mechwarrior. And then it doesn't even have some of the most simple, most fondly remembered options from earlier Mechwarriors made over two decades ago. Come on. I really hope this is NOT indicative of how the final product will be.

We want... no, we NEED a rudimentary map with coordinates. And it'd be nice to have some sort of map interaction where you can mark your own waypoints or strategic targets. Best would of course be if you could draw some simple attack patterns there too. I don't think it would be hard to implement, and I still can't understand how it has been so overlooked.
---

But lets get back to the AI. It has about two to three "tactics", which consist of:

1) Awkwardly and slowly waddling from behind one building to another while presenting it's full front and trying to shoot at the player with one or two weapons instead of them all.
2) Hysterically twitching its torso while trying to decide whether to shoot at the player behind them or the AI lancemate in front of them.
3) Waddling straight towards the player, then standing completely still and getting headshotted.

There seems to be zero teamwork between enemy AI - at least in most cases. There was this one time when my lance encountered like 5-6 enemies at the same time, and the enemy lights started flanking and circling us. But I'm not sure if that was a fluke or not. Other than that, the enemy generally tends to run towards the player as soon the player shoots at them. It's funny, because if you don't shoot at them, they will happily present their backs while shooting at a random building. Especially in the defense -mission.

Then, other times the enemy AI will go full aggro on the player straight from the get go, for absolutely no reason, and just ignore anyone else shooting at them.

By the way, it's not exactly encouraging when enemies just pop right into existence in front of your eyes after you happen to cross some invisible checkpoint. That means you can't outsmart the enemy by maneuvering to high ground or taking the long route around, because the enemy doesn't even exist before you go where you're supposed to go. I really hope this isn't how the "random generated" missions in the final release are going to work, because it throws any hope of fun co-op strategies out of the window.
---

All in all, I'd like to end this on a positive note, as I can clearly see the makings of an excellent Mechwarrior game somewhere in there... but I can't until you fix the AI and give us a decent map IN THE LEAST.

Edited by Jyi, 27 November 2019 - 11:09 AM.


#2 CFC Conky

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Posted 27 November 2019 - 11:53 AM

Ummmm, cuz it’s a beta?

#3 Corbon Zackery

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Posted 27 November 2019 - 12:19 PM

Yea this is basically a 20gb teaser. Its not the full project. Really we were looking for a Prologue Mission that set up the campaign.

So the AI issue was one that I brought up, and I know I commented on it during the play through Russ did. When you watch the video it looked like the AI was suicide charging, or getting confused by the number of targets.

One of the big issues was because each map had a fixed numbers of turrets, tanks, V-tols. early tests found that everything was swarming in at once just obliterating the lance.

So AI coding was suppose to fix that. V-tols would stay at range to provide spots for LRM. Tanks would fall back and regroup. Ground tanks would be super aggressive if other enemy mechs were around.

I played one match with super light medium lance random skill pilots. I got taken out in my Jenner.
2nd match I beef up with a Wolverine, and had no issues.

Everything else feels smooth. AI's don't complain if you abuse them.

Edited by Corbon Zackery, 27 November 2019 - 12:22 PM.


#4 MW Waldorf Statler

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Posted 27 November 2019 - 12:27 PM

View PostCFC Conky, on 27 November 2019 - 11:53 AM, said:

Ummmm, cuz it’s a beta?

oh yes thats was the winged Word for MWO ...and after the BETA , its was not better

#5 Vorpal Puppy

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Posted 27 November 2019 - 12:29 PM

View PostCFC Conky, on 27 November 2019 - 11:53 AM, said:

Ummmm, cuz it’s a beta?


They call this a 'demo' not a Beta. Calling it a Beta would suggest development occurring between now and the release - which is only 2 weeks away. Doubt they would do much more that simple tweaks and cosmetic stuff in that short a window. Other than turning on the career/campaign mode, I think this is what we are getting.


#6 Davegt27

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Posted 27 November 2019 - 12:35 PM

lol " VERY critical"

yeah no kidding

#7 Spheroid

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Posted 27 November 2019 - 12:36 PM

Is HTAL enabled? The damage display method seems to be the same one that frustrates current color blind individuals in MWO.

#8 Dee Eight

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Posted 27 November 2019 - 12:50 PM

I just cannot be bothered to more than skim the review of someone who hasn't played THIS game in 2 1/2 years and even then barely at all before that.

#9 Jyi

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Posted 27 November 2019 - 12:51 PM

View PostCFC Conky, on 27 November 2019 - 11:53 AM, said:

Ummmm, cuz it’s a beta?

This is a bad argument that ALWAYS gets thrown in when trying to defend a subpar product. Firstly, it's not really a beta anymore, it's a demo. The launch is 2 weeks away (actually, about 1 week and 6 days now). Unless this demo is of a version that is months behind the release version, it's not going to change drastically. Sadly.

Secondly, it wouldn't matter even if it was beta. Beta is the time to criticize things that don't work, because then there's hope they can still be changed. In this case, I'm not holding much hope for release, but perhaps there's yet hope for a post-release patch that improves AI.

I really don't get what it is with people accepting broken features in betas. "Oh, it'll be fine. It's just beta. They'll fix it." Guess what: they won't fix things that they don't know are broken. If you've been developing a game for years, you get used to what it is as it is. You become blind to issues that are glaringly obvious to someone else. Or you just think that's not the most important thing. This is why it'd been a good idea for PGI to give us a REAL beta, so we could've commented on these things way earlier.

#10 Koniving

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Posted 27 November 2019 - 12:51 PM

View PostCorbon Zackery, on 27 November 2019 - 12:19 PM, said:

Yea this is basically a 20gb teaser. Its not the full project. Really we were looking for a Prologue Mission that set up the campaign.


Mine was 48.6 gigabytes.

Also, considering it's 2 weeks before the main game and the features were locked 3 months ago...
even as a dumbed down version, the full base game, mech classes and AI script is already here...

#11 Prototelis

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Posted 27 November 2019 - 12:53 PM

View PostDee Eight, on 27 November 2019 - 12:50 PM, said:

I just cannot be bothered to more than skim the review of someone who hasn't played THIS game in 2 1/2 years and even then barely at all before that.


lol

What does that have to do with reviewing MW5?

#12 Koniving

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Posted 27 November 2019 - 12:55 PM

View PostDee Eight, on 27 November 2019 - 12:50 PM, said:

I just cannot be bothered to more than skim the review of someone who hasn't played THIS game in 2 1/2 years and even then barely at all before that.

I read it in its entirety. And I gotta say I agree with it. It's mostly critics about the UI's issues of complete inconsistency, absolutely weird logic of being able to load a loadout from a "Saved mechs" on mech selection before getting into the mechlab but once in the mechlab you can't load a previously saved loadout even though from there you can save one.

Issues where lots of pages have back buttons, but then certain pages suddenly don't have back buttons but instead have windows like "X"s instead.

And the AI being extremely easy to trick and largely incompetent without any teamwork... though he goes on to mention that once with 6 enemies there was something that might've been teamwork but seemed more like a fluke.

#13 Jyi

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Posted 27 November 2019 - 12:56 PM

View PostDee Eight, on 27 November 2019 - 12:50 PM, said:

I just cannot be bothered to more than skim the review of someone who hasn't played THIS game in 2 1/2 years and even then barely at all before that.

Elitist much?

I really don't see what me playing MWO has to do with opinions about MW5. But hey, if you're happy with the state of the game (or both of the games), good for you. I for one am not. Have you considered that maybe I quit MWO because I didn't think it was worth my time? I can assure you, I played thousands of games during beta before they reset those statistics. That's when MWO had potential. Then they screwed up things one after another, and then it just became a guilty pleasure for me. And eventually I got bored and didn't touch it until very recently, because I needed my mech combat fix while waiting for MW5.

I bet you put salt in your coffee in the morning.

#14 Novakaine

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Posted 27 November 2019 - 03:41 PM

Some people just want to see everything burn.

#15 Mystere

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Posted 27 November 2019 - 03:52 PM

View PostNovakaine, on 27 November 2019 - 03:41 PM, said:

Some people just want to see everything burn.


Did someone call? Posted Image

#16 General Solo

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Posted 27 November 2019 - 04:52 PM

TLDR

#17 Willard Phule

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Posted 27 November 2019 - 04:54 PM

Just curious, based on the discussion of the AI.

I remember the "AI" of pretty much all of the previous incarnations of the "MechWarrior" franchise 1 player games. Loved all of them, even the Sega version. Looking back, I realize I was stupid in my youth, but that's another matter.

Here's my question, since I didn't preorder or anything....with what anyone has witnessed about the AI's abilities, would it be more dangerous with a "non standard" loadout as opposed to stock?

Just putting that out there as a thought. Having the ability to save a variant of a 'mech and then assign it to the Opfor kinda changes the challenge rating.

#18 Koniving

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Posted 27 November 2019 - 05:16 PM

View PostWillard Phule, on 27 November 2019 - 04:54 PM, said:

Just curious, based on the discussion of the AI.

I remember the "AI" of pretty much all of the previous incarnations of the "MechWarrior" franchise 1 player games. Loved all of them, even the Sega version. Looking back, I realize I was stupid in my youth, but that's another matter.

Here's my question, since I didn't preorder or anything....with what anyone has witnessed about the AI's abilities, would it be more dangerous with a "non standard" loadout as opposed to stock?

Just putting that out there as a thought. Having the ability to save a variant of a 'mech and then assign it to the Opfor kinda changes the challenge rating.


Probably not.
As far as I can tell the AI doesn't have the same rules as the player. Rather than actually dealing with a heat bar, the mech's are forced to fire no more than 3 weapons at once and to alternate between them with seemingly abitrary restrictions in how quickly they can fire (the player can fire almost a third times more often than the AI with the same loadout). Also I've given the AI allies different loadouts and played as a swarm of Panthers armed with Streaks and Machine guns lay waste to five enemy mechs (mostly mediums with a light and a heavyas well as multiple turrets and other things firing) in under 2 minutes without losing a single mech until after the last enemy mech was down.

Sporting only one AI ally seems to have some marked improvement in the enemy performance though. With fewer targets to decide between they seemed more competent, particularly in seeming to evade aim rather than standing still like idiots sniping from around the corner of buildings that were already destroyed.

So far if you go without the escort, the AI seems tougher, but I've still laid waste to 7 mechs (5 of which of 10 to 45 tons superior to myself) while going at 64.8 kph with only AC/2s.

Speaking of, mixing AC/2 and AC/2 BF can trigger a glitch that locks the AC/2 BF into constantly firing. Seemed to happen when I was hit while firing while in the air.

#19 Koniving

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Posted 27 November 2019 - 05:19 PM

Another thing I've noticed is that the fewer the enemies are in the field, the deadlier (or rather more aggressive) they actually seem to be. It's like they're deliberately holding back when there's a bunch. There's also something that seems to have them intentionally miss the player under certain conditions (particularly when either retreating, which can be a cool effect, and when running by without attacking them). Despite having lined up shots perfectly as can be seen from the third person view, they suddenly and expressly jolt their aim somewhere nearby (almost like an aimbot intended to miss) and fire.

Edited by Koniving, 27 November 2019 - 05:21 PM.


#20 Koniving

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Posted 27 November 2019 - 05:30 PM

AI also seems to favor distances from the target based on its weight class and primary weapon.

A Locust armed with an AC/2 keeps the "run around people" philosphy when told they can freely attack a target (this is required to get them to leave formation otherwise they'll just stupidly follow you), but will circle them from around 400 to 600 meters. Armed with small lasers and they'll get right up to 90 meters and run circles (or try, they actually fail at this a lot when so close). Medium lasers and you get a pretty cool MWO-light harassment strategy play before your eyes. Unfortunately, they don't pre-plan their evasion so when a building comes up they aren't already thinking about it so this causes them to suddenly stop, turn and make a course correction after which the Locust was instantly gibbed with a backshot.

They are also seemingly very UNaware of each other. With a team of two Centurions armed with different weapon variants, they got into a situation where the damaged one appeared to be using the healthier one as a shield. I was actually pretty impressed at first. Then I realize what's going on is both of them are trying to follow a similar if not identical path node around some complex geometry, and since both of them are trying to use it and shoot the same enemy, they formed a double rail in which the rear weaker Centurion could shoot the arm gun around the other one... but while that looked awesome and intended, it'd also use the lasers and SRMs into the other's back...killing it after the third time where I get some comment about taking too much damage and ejecting. Ultimately the two Centurions were basically copying each other right down to the order of their fire.

Edited by Koniving, 27 November 2019 - 05:32 PM.






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