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Mw5: Back To Its Roots!


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#61 MischiefSC

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Posted 03 December 2019 - 03:07 PM

View PostYueFei, on 03 December 2019 - 10:28 AM, said:


I have to agree with this. You don't even necessarily need explicit difficulty settings. Wing Commander 2 is an example of a game where the AI dynamically adjusted itself based on the player's actions. For fun, you could of course still hard-set the difficulty, just to see what would happen if the game didn't "hold your hands", so to speak, and when you did that, a single AI fighter was dangerous enough to kill you in a single burst of fire whilst pulling a skidded attack, and you'd have to work your butt off to evade and counter.

If a game made in 1991 can sense a player's competency and dynamically adjust the AI, why can't a game made in 2019?


It's got a difficulty slider and settings.

That's turned off in the demo.

Probably because it not only impacts AI skill but what tier of gear the AI brings. So on Hard difficulty the AI is using T3 weapons/mech gear, in addition to focusing damaged locations. Having the AI focus fire is certainly possible but introduces a huge difficulty spike. Creating a hill and eating 9 PPCs from 3 awesomes to the face is what we're used to in MWO playing at a higherskill level PvP, it's not what you'd call a standard PvE solo gaming experience, especially when your teammates can accidentally turn a corner before you and get deleted in one exchange.



#62 Carpenocturn

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Posted 03 December 2019 - 04:14 PM

I don't have the game, I haven't played it.

From the video's I have seen it is disappointing.

It's great looking, great sounding, but an arcade version of both the tabletop game and MWOnline and that makes it a no for me.

I want a game where my contribution to the team requires me to work at being a better player. Not a game where I have to be the fastest at hitting the pop up heads.

I really cannot see the AI offering anything more in difficulty than straight forward adjustments to how it shoots. It won't bait and switch, it won't dodge or splash damage like a champion, it won't surprise and it will not adjust to what you do.
It's an AI.

This will very likely ruin what little is left of MWOnline but not in the "good" way haters are expecting. Sooner rather than later, when MW5 loses it's shine* we'll have nothing to go back to.

*True it will be years, but I believe it will be less than half as long as MWOnline has lasted at it's worst.

#63 Koniving

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Posted 03 December 2019 - 05:29 PM

View PostCarpenocturn, on 03 December 2019 - 04:14 PM, said:

I don't have the game, I haven't played it.
From the video's I have seen it is disappointing.

It's great looking, great sounding, but an arcade version of both the tabletop game and MWOnline and that makes it a no for me.

I want a game where my contribution to the team requires me to work at being a better player. Not a game where I have to be the fastest at hitting the pop up heads.


While it is true that some of us are fussing about the ai because it is about braindead, we are not in the early 2000s where it's accept what is given or move on. We are in an age I only dreamed of when I first became a modder, where I can simply select "if this, then do that" and be able to completely build a fun ai from the ground up by completing statements in English without having to know a lick of coding.

I've actually started tweaking the ai (which is also how I know what the ai sees it's allies as), and I have already changed it to identify friendly positions when engaging "red Doritos". At the moment it now stops shooting if a blue Dorito is in the way, but it's a first step and it took me less than two hours (with no knowledge of how to use the interface to figuring out how to do it and a test). Though it has to be done to each "class" respectively. Each class determines an engagement strategy and has a separate package.

So fixing it won't be hard at all... But why are we fixing it and not pgi? It has nothing to do with how smart the ai is just a basic "I should not kill my team mates or treat them like obstacles beep boop".

So how come pgi couldn't do it?

#64 lazorbeamz

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Posted 03 December 2019 - 05:41 PM

Cant wait to play the game.

#65 Koniving

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Posted 03 December 2019 - 05:43 PM

I have actually just discovered some neat **** in the RTS toolkit for unreal engine 4, including premade Command AI (which I can use as a base for mw5's HQ) as well as premade squad ai that treats multiple bodies as a single unit, i.e. a squad of infantry that can act and tax the system as a single ai unit. So, if I use some lower poly but well-textured models I could put infantry on the ground and have them orchestrate to set up support guns and provide possible attacks from on or near buildings, as well as utilize a premade apc script to have them be able to board and disembark from vehicles ...

All for just 5 bucks to be able to use in my own games or modding. As you can imagine I already bought it.

#66 Jackal Noble

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Posted 03 December 2019 - 06:28 PM

Yo koniving, I know you said you couldn't get the nvidia ansel working because amd gpu.
The dev cam should work for you however - you need a game controller linked via usb - the sheet(link in op) says xbox 360, but a xbone works the same. With it you can pan over the entire map and look individual enemy units etc, without issue given that you don't start the mission right off the bat. Also change time of day with x button + right bumper.

here's a night shot.

Posted Image

Edited by Jackal Noble, 03 December 2019 - 06:29 PM.


#67 FRAGTAST1C

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Posted 03 December 2019 - 07:28 PM

View PostKoniving, on 03 December 2019 - 05:29 PM, said:

So fixing it won't be hard at all... But why are we fixing it and not pgi? It has nothing to do with how smart the ai is just a basic "I should not kill my team mates or treat them like obstacles beep boop".

So how come pgi couldn't do it?


It might probably be a design choice. "Let's have some war crimes in the game".

#68 Jyi

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Posted 03 December 2019 - 08:21 PM

View PostFRAGTAST1C, on 03 December 2019 - 07:28 PM, said:


It might probably be a design choice. "Let's have some war crimes in the game".

Here, let me laugh at you:

HAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Seriously? You're not joking?

You think AI so abysmally bad that it doesn't realize there's a friend in its firing line is a conscious "design choice"? How deluded are you?

Really? How long are you people going to keep defending PGI for bad decisions?

#69 FRAGTAST1C

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Posted 03 December 2019 - 08:25 PM

View PostJyi, on 03 December 2019 - 08:21 PM, said:

Here, let me laugh at you:

HAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Seriously? You're not joking?

You think AI so abysmally bad that it doesn't realize there's a friend in its firing line is a conscious "design choice"? How deluded are you?

Really? How long are you people going to keep defending PGI for bad decisions?


If you weren't so high on your excrement, you'd realize that I was being sarcastic. The quoted statement should've been evident enough.

#70 Ilfi

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Posted 03 December 2019 - 08:34 PM

This forum for the past week:

Quote


Quote


Which one is it, lads?

Also, on what grounds is "soon to be very popular opinion" founded upon? Everyone I talk to outside of the Old Gold MWO forums and Outreach HPG is outright ****ting on both the game and PGI for their long and sordid history of poor business decisions and slap-shod game design -- and honestly, I see a lot of salty buggers in here as well. What's worse is I've started seeing users advocating piracy on the sole fact that MW5 is an EGS exclusive, but that's another story entirely...

Sometimes I feel like the only people left here are shills, victims of Stockholm syndrome and angry MechWarrior fans -- which makes sense given the location, but is a bit heart-breaking.

Edited by Ilfi, 03 December 2019 - 08:38 PM.


#71 Valdarion Silarius

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Posted 03 December 2019 - 08:41 PM

From what I've seen game play wise from Baradul and TTB, it looks really fun. I hope the story is developed and we get some clan DLCs down the road. I wonder if mod support is going to allow for some unofficial clan add ons and/or PGI allows clan customization for modders. That's the biggest aspect that I'm looking forwards in MW:5 Mercs.

#72 Jyi

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Posted 03 December 2019 - 08:43 PM

View PostMischiefSC, on 03 December 2019 - 03:01 PM, said:

Your assumption about game design for the majority of consumers for the product doesn't become valid because you call them "lowest common denominator". Especially for an otherwise niche product accessibility makes or breaks you.

Mech dads are not the "majority of consumers". Unless you decide to make a game SPECIFICALLY for them... and then for some reason don't even bother implementing proper joystick support. LMFAO.

There's plenty of people like me who want a good Mechwarrior -game with proper challenge, and more people who didn't know they wanted a good Mechwarrior -game with proper challenge, but could realize they do when such a game is released. Sadly, that probably won't happen now, because PGI truly seems to be clueless.

Quote

Your assumptions about game AI are totally divorced from reality. Of COURSE it's possible to design an AI to do whatever. The issue with game AI is *always* 3 things. Investment of time/available resources (coders), game resource cost (every single decision or call an AI makes reduces your ability to improve graphics and/or total number of AI in play, allied and enemy, at any given moment) and flexibility (does the AI require hand placement and map design resources to work, adding effort and cost to level design and hurting modability or are they just spawn and go, also for MWO with each mech having variable range, speed, JJs, weapon ranges, heat profiles, how flexible is it for the individual mob).

Divorced from reality? Because I want an AI that's not braindead? Seriously? :D

Also, graphics and AI are generally done by different people or departments. You don't hire a code monkey to do graphics - or vice versa. Thus, graphics are generally not affected by AI design. However, I'm not certain how much procedurally generated maps require coding. If they'd skipped doing their stupid and pointless procedural maps and gone for a more rudimentary system, they might've had time to develop a better AI. Or they could've hired some extra people to work on the AI. Seeing as AI is one of the core aspects of ANY game.

Also, they could've concentrated on AI design for release and for example worked mod support in in a post-release patch - not the other way around.

Quote

MW5 has destructible assets and widely variable terrain and it's a shooter. Every other game out there has AI about like MW5. Most make it look better by tricks with level design (DOOM is a corridor shooter that doesn't feel like a corridor shooter) or by tweaking the mobs in ways MWO can't - damage/health buffs, weapons/moves the player doesn't have that let them exploit the unique environment they spawn in.

Oh yea, I forgot the stupid and completely irrelevant destructibility. Sure, it looks cool for a whole lot of 5 minutes until you realize how ridicilous it is that you can walk through buildings like they were paper - except some buildings that only have an outer layer of destructible parts and become completely and utterly invincible once you get through that.

Also, no, most games don't have similar level of AI as MW5. They have design that is decades more advanced. And while I detest your ridicilous argument that Doom AI is good only because of level design (I'm assuming you're talking about the new Doom -games, not the original one from -93 - though even that probably has better AI than MW5), PGI could've done that if they'd taken a more handcrafted approach to their design instead of the extravagant procedural generation - which they clearly were incapable of pulling off competently.

Previous Mechwarrior -games had more handcrafted design, and thus they could have appropriately tuned design. But nooooo, not PGI.

Quote

UI is worth criticizing specifically because it IS low hanging fruit. Sure there's room to improve the AI a bit but a stable of the greatest AI designers in the world still won't make it significantly better without a sea change in gaming hardware and/or software platform. Yeas from now the best improvement you can expect are small tweaks that'll help a bit and be very labor intensive to do. The UI however can/should see huge improvements for relatively little effort.

I think anything in the game is worth criticizing, but there are things that should be criticized more and things that should be criticized less. If you think a competent developer couldn't make a competent AI in UE4, you're clueless. I don't want to go to ad hominem -insults, but I don't know how else to say it. You're completely clueless if you think an average developer that actually put some effort into it couldn't make a LEAPS better AI in UE4.

And if the UI is so little effort, you go mod it out. I've criticized the UI since the alpha and beta -videos, but to me it's still comparatively inconsequential if the BASE GAME IS BROKEN.

#73 Jyi

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Posted 03 December 2019 - 08:47 PM

View PostFRAGTAST1C, on 03 December 2019 - 08:25 PM, said:


If you weren't so high on your excrement, you'd realize that I was being sarcastic. The quoted statement should've been evident enough.

I'm not high on MY excrement... If you know what I mean. Posted Image

To be honest, no, at this point I don't know who's being sarcastic and who's not. I'm starting to lose hope in MW-fans. I apologize for laughing at you. Maybe I should laugh at myself for still holding hope for the MW-franchise at this point.

Edited by Jyi, 03 December 2019 - 08:48 PM.


#74 Jyi

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Posted 03 December 2019 - 08:56 PM

View PostIlfi, on 03 December 2019 - 08:34 PM, said:

This forum for the past week:


Which one is it, lads?

Also, on what grounds is "soon to be very popular opinion" founded upon? Everyone I talk to outside of the Old Gold MWO forums and Outreach HPG is outright ****ting on both the game and PGI for their long and sordid history of poor business decisions and slap-shod game design -- and honestly, I see a lot of salty buggers in here as well. What's worse is I've started seeing users advocating piracy on the sole fact that MW5 is an EGS exclusive, but that's another story entirely...

I'll tell you which one it is: it is both.

But the first one will apply to 99% of gamers while the latter one will only apply to die-hard MW-fans.

Most gamers will not hear much about MW5, because PGI doesn't understand how to do marketing either.

Getting publicity for a game is relatively easy. First you make a good game, then you make a post on reddit and send the game to youtubers and twitch-streamers. Then you get free publicity because people will be entranced by a fun game.

Insert that Gru-meme here. PGI would have to make a good game first.

Quote

Sometimes I feel like the only people left here are shills, victims of Stockholm syndrome and angry MechWarrior fans -- which makes sense given the location, but is a bit heart-breaking.

It is heart breaking. When they decided to royally f*ck MWO up, I thought "well, we'll let them have this". Then HBStech came out, and I held a little hope, because while I don't like a lot of things in HBStech, I do like a lot of others. At least it gets some of the feeling of oldschool BT & MW right.

But heck, it's PGI we're talking about here.

PGI and Russ's "low hanging fruits".

#75 Jyi

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Posted 03 December 2019 - 09:05 PM

View PostArnold The Governator, on 03 December 2019 - 08:41 PM, said:

From what I've seen game play wise from Baradul and TTB, it looks really fun. I hope the story is developed and we get some clan DLCs down the road. I wonder if mod support is going to allow for some unofficial clan add ons and/or PGI allows clan customization for modders. That's the biggest aspect that I'm looking forwards in MW:5 Mercs.

It's more a testament to Baradul and TTB's capabilities as content creators than PGI's capabilities as a developer. They really DO make it look like fun. That's like having this rad looking car and a car salesman who slaps the hood, revs the engine and says "listen to how nice the engine sounds", then buying the car and and driving it for 5 minutes until it completely breaks down.

If you haven't bought this game yet, at least wait until it's released and look at a few unbiased reviews.

#76 Jackal Noble

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Posted 03 December 2019 - 09:05 PM

View PostJyi, on 03 December 2019 - 08:21 PM, said:

Here, let me laugh at you:

HAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Seriously? You're not joking?

You think AI so abysmally bad that it doesn't realize there's a friend in its firing line is a conscious "design choice"? How deluded are you?

Really? How long are you people going to keep defending PGI for bad decisions?

I refrained from ******** all over your "MW5 bad!" opinion post, I'd appreciate if you did the same.
(Other than the part where I made fun of your aim in the video, of coursePosted Image


What's the matter?
Too much vitriol in your thread that people lost interest and saw it for what it is - a weird hate letter - so you reckoned you should come over and pop a squat in sunshine land.

It's called a difference of opinion. If you respect anything, respect that.

Edited by Jackal Noble, 03 December 2019 - 09:15 PM.


#77 Valdarion Silarius

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Posted 03 December 2019 - 09:13 PM

View PostJyi, on 03 December 2019 - 09:05 PM, said:

If you haven't bought this game yet, at least wait until it's released and look at a few unbiased reviews.

Oh trust me I'm definitely waiting for at least the steam release. I've learned my lesson the hard way with early access video games awhile ago. I'm too lazy to download the EGS client just for MW:5 unless PGI had their own separate launcher.

#78 Jyi

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Posted 03 December 2019 - 09:14 PM

View PostJackal Noble, on 03 December 2019 - 09:05 PM, said:

I refrained from ******** all over your "MW5 bad!" opinion post, I'd appreciate if you did the same.
(Other than the part where I made fun of your aim in the video, of coursePosted Image

So you didn't refrain from sh*tting on my post, and the only reply you had was an ad hominem -attack instead of... you know, having some sort of retort to my arguments instead. And sure, go ahead and sh*t on my post. Facts are facts, they won't change based on your opinion.

I'd rather have honest discussion and heated arguments than some sort of pretentious "you stay there and I'll stay here" -type of "truce". I don't care or control who replies to a post I started, and neither do you.

From my perspective, the more we talk here, the more PGI will realize how polarized the customer base is. And that MAY still be enough for them to reconsider making some post-release improvements so we'll actually have a fun game for everyone.

#79 Jackal Noble

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Posted 03 December 2019 - 09:37 PM

View PostJyi, on 03 December 2019 - 09:14 PM, said:

So you didn't refrain from sh*tting on my post, and the only reply you had was an ad hominem -attack instead of... you know, having some sort of retort to my arguments instead. And sure, go ahead and sh*t on my post. Facts are facts, they won't change based on your opinion.

I'd rather have honest discussion and heated arguments than some sort of pretentious "you stay there and I'll stay here" -type of "truce". I don't care or control who replies to a post I started, and neither do you.

From my perspective, the more we talk here, the more PGI will realize how polarized the customer base is. And that MAY still be enough for them to reconsider making some post-release improvements so we'll actually have a fun game for everyone.


Oh you are more than welcome to stay, was just letting you know how it looks for appearance sake. You strapped in and did a blitz bomb. In one spot you went on several tangents 4 posts in a row. Dude, chill. Ransacking and derailing a thread for the sake of creating a presence that you think might, probably absolutely not, but might get the attention of said developer of said game literally a week before it launches.

I'd say that ship has sailed bub. Going by your limited forum presence (a whopping 192 posts) I'd say that you were saving all of those pent up post for until the demo dropped and you started making posts about it.

You must have been greatly anticipating this moment, either to **** all over it because you've vowed to never forgive PGI for past mistakes, or you were greatly anticipating MW5 and it was nothing like you thought it would be... Which is totally fine. Some people can like games that others don't. That is okay. I can't stand JRPGs or those Pixel RPGmaker games, just not my cup of tea. It doesn't mean that I think the people that gush all over that stuff are wrong (maybe a little) but that not everything is meant for everyone.

Look, I know you are super hung up about the A.I. in the game, what is your shining example of how giant seeming mechs should interact and move in a destructible - sandbox- environment? I am curious.

Please tell me it's Wing Commander 2

Edited by Jackal Noble, 03 December 2019 - 09:38 PM.


#80 Jackal Noble

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Posted 03 December 2019 - 10:00 PM

View PostIlfi, on 03 December 2019 - 08:34 PM, said:


Also, on what grounds is "soon to be very popular opinion" founded upon? Everyone I talk to outside of the Old Gold MWO forums and Outreach HPG is outright ****ting on both the game and PGI for their long and sordid history of poor business decisions and slap-shod game design -- and honestly, I see a lot of salty buggers in here as well. What's worse is I've started seeing users advocating piracy on the sole fact that MW5 is an EGS exclusive, but that's another story entirely...

Sometimes I feel like the only people left here are shills, victims of Stockholm syndrome and angry MechWarrior fans -- which makes sense given the location, but is a bit heart-breaking.

Oh boy
A literal one, eh? ok.
It's a way of saying that people are going to like the game and not hate it. It's a way to try and build up some positive and let people know that I'm enjoying the game and think others will too.
Yes, I'm aware, very much so of the criticisms(some valid, some opinion) it has received.

here's the short - I liked the game demo and am looking forward to what is a written out campaign, with a budgeting set up ala Bmech where I can do mission, salvage and repair and get enhanced weapons etc.

The glass can be half-full.

Edited by Jackal Noble, 04 December 2019 - 03:14 AM.






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