265 replies to this topic

[Jackal Noble]

You're not listening, mang
You are saying 'your theory' of what it is.
You're not actually saying anything of technical significance.
Understandably your 'theory crafting' sounds made up, esp when cross referenced with a bunch of videos from other unrelated franchises or referencing outdated technology that is 18 years old like that's somehow supposed to validate one as an Expert or a knowledgeable source on all things A.I. and the Unreal Engine. That's quite some breadth there.

Let it go.

[The pessimistic optimist]

FupDup, on 02 December 2019 - 07:30 PM, said:

Bruh, please. People are gonna pretty quickly figure out the objectively strongest mechs/guns/strats just like they did in TT, HBS-BT, and every MW game. I dunno how you think that never having patches will prevent some guns or robots from being the "meta."

As it stands now LBX 10 slug is just plain better then normal AC 10

[Ilfi]

I'd just like to say I've very much enjoyed some of the replies to this thread.

[Koniving]

Bah the page changed, check back for the pic while facing 17 tons of steel.

Btw how do I get into the floaty cam without Ansel? The alt f2 thing does nothing at all. That would really help in demonstrating what they do with the player not near them.

Edited by Koniving, 04 December 2019 - 08:48 PM.

[Xaat Xuun]

Jackal Noble, on 04 December 2019 - 07:00 PM, said:

A quick 5 min showing of Ansel paired with the Dev tool (controlled via Xboxone controller)
This is pretty fun to mess with.

why didn't the drop ship leaving destroyed the trees ?

[Jackal Noble]

Koniving, on 04 December 2019 - 08:39 PM, said:

Bah the page changed, check back for the pic while facing 17 tons of steel.

Btw how do I get into the floaty cam without Ansel? The alt f2 thing does nothing at all. That would really help in demonstrating what they do with the player not near them.

CTRL+SHIFT+V
You need a PC gamepad to actually control camera movement and axis. Otherwise you will be able to open the dev cam, just not move anywhere without a controller.
I linked the doc that PGI put out for the camera controls.
It says to use the Xbox360 controller.
My XboxOne controller works great, just grabbed a micro USB cord and plugged it in to my PC. I've told you this earlier in post. The game also works with a game pad btw.

Edited by Jackal Noble, 04 December 2019 - 08:55 PM.

[Burning2nd]

Jyi, on 04 December 2019 - 03:47 PM, said:

I started only at 93ish, but hey, me too!

I didn't want to see MW5 fail, and I'm still holding very little hope it won't. But if this AI issue isn't resolved, it's not going to be pretty.

there is a silver lining....

once the mod team get there hands on it... It could be better

[Koniving]

Jackal Noble, on 04 December 2019 - 08:26 PM, said:

You are saying 'your theory' of what it is.

Spoiler

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You're welcome to read it. Never said it'd be pretty to give the technical side.

Given that the demo is locked, all I can do is go through, get information and edit little variables to put them back in (some lock). Just can't open it in a pretty interface.

This said..


Overall, in JYI's recent video with the Atlas, you can see this at work.
The AI can detect being hit, but closer target instantly takes priority so after "AssignAttacker_CombatTarget_C'
It is always running "RunEQSQuery InTargetRangeCone Assign_CombatTarget_C"
due to higher level tree behavior overriding this sub-tree and damaged tree reference.

MovetoWithRespectTo_CombatTarget_C has a specified range bool of the ideal range based on equipment. Ideal is defined as a maximum of the longest possible and a minimum of the shortest "long range" of the equipment.

The closest target takes the overriding priority as the AI can only deal with a single target at a time.
The actual behavior is a combination of multiple trees, but the tree dictating how to actually select a target is 11 words long.

The fact that it is locked and all I can do are notepad edits to values is actually why the only thing I've done with the AI is double the engagement range by telling it 2x the result of the range it queries for, which also apparently establishes the detection cone outside of line of sight. There was something else I did but I can't remember it now, ultimately it didn't work out though.

I could give you all kinds of spoilers, such as the exact number of vehicles, unused factions (WordOfBlake????), etc..

But isn't it more fun to learn that in game? Afterall I kinda spoiled the opening sequence in my discoveries and the ending.

Edit -- just tacking this on.
Side note: Despite there being a hit and run, I've only seen the Jackal run the mech's version. TheLocust instead engages in a circle of death with respect to combattarget_C's location and it drops that tactic once it collides with another object or structure, gradually shifting to the Mobile Tactic after a defined wait time that in my opinion is a bit too long.

Vehicle versions are running pretty often.

Edited by Koniving, 05 December 2019 - 01:16 PM.

[Koniving]

Now, on a fair note...
I found today that there is a superior AI within the game called MechCon2018 Boss.
This is definitely much better, and I suspect this may be (obviously) what the MechCon players went up against.

It is possible they might use this AI in game for heroes, but Russ while he teased heroes, he also said the game didn't have a concept of keeping track of an entity after the battle, but that doesn't mean that a boss couldn't show up. A "Hero mech" would certainly fit the bill.


Find fire position is part of what makes this AI smarter than most, as the only other AI to do this is the Indirect tactic, and it is more complicated than "in range" and no obstacle in path, it makes considerations for elevation.

In general the boss AI is more akin to what I expected of the basic mech AI.
The issue I have however is that the Boss can't handle being dropped into a random level, and is exclusively defined to attack the player and the "mechasquad" (really?), so it has no concept of engaging anything else beyond scripted set pieces.

Spoiler

(Couldn't take the AI as it is and plop it into a generated level as it's calls and queries getting no answers would neuter its intelligence, and can't expect it to be capable of attacking other doritos [CombatTarget_C] as it does not have a single combattarget call, it specifically calls out the player and the player allies as targets. So dropping a boss and having it tear up the "OTHER" bad guys couldn't happen without rewriting chunks of it.)

Gotta get ready for work.

Edited by Koniving, 05 December 2019 - 01:26 PM.

[Koniving]

Jackal Noble, on 04 December 2019 - 08:53 PM, said:

CTRL+SHIFT+V
You need a PC gamepad to actually control camera movement and axis. Otherwise you will be able to open the dev cam, just not move anywhere without a controller.
I linked the doc that PGI put out for the camera controls.
It says to use the Xbox360 controller.
My XboxOne controller works great, just grabbed a micro USB cord and plugged it in to my PC. I've told you this earlier in post. The game also works with a game pad btw.

Thank you. For some reason I had the impression of just pressing things on the controller would do it.

[Jackal Noble]

The coolest little trick I've discovered with the cam is you can lock any entity and track it.
Also, it has two lock/tracking modes for entities- (Hard, Soft) both with the 'Select' Button. It takes some practice to quickly switch between the modes.

X button + Left Shoulder Button controls Day/Night Cycles.

If you pull the camera really far back, and lock on your mech so the camera tracks it reminds me of the Sega Battletech AGOAC Iso-metric title. One can only imagine a really fun isometric that a skilled mod can produce. Or Mech-commander even!
Could utilize the built in command interface and make the whole lance A.I. with a cursor overlay.

Also, if this survives in some form for the launch, it's going to serve as the resource for fan-made scenes with scenarios.



Much better.

Edited by Jackal Noble, 05 December 2019 - 01:27 PM.

[Nesutizale]

Nice finds Konivig. You think you can engineer something from the boss ai that could improve the standart ai or can you even make a new ai?
Also I see tank an vtol down there...do they have a seperate ai or is it the basic ai just for tanks?

Still wish for tanks and vtols to have an ai that takes their special capabilities into account like vtols can move up and down/potard so to speak and that tanks can be much better of driving in formations and concentrating fire.

[Jackal Noble]

It's separate.
VTOLs behave differently than tanks. I haven't noticed if the VTOLs do a lot of vertical movement but when they come in they do drop down in altitude.

The assault tank with 5AC2 will engage at outside of your radar range, which is nice.

[Nesutizale]

The AC2 tanks attack at range is good but they are so spread and irratic in movement. Imagne that 2-4 of them are in formation. That could be some seriouse firepower even for a mech. Also it would look cool seeing the tracer ammo passing by. I think players would then even try to take cover from that? Searching for a better approach vector?

[Maddermax]

SirSmokes said:

1575520033[/url]' post='6305005']
As it stands now LBX 10 slug is just plain better then normal AC 10

Which is as it should be. The LBX 10 was simply a better and more versatile star-league era version of an AC10, per Battletech lore. IIRC, the other LBX versions (2, 5, 20) were simply imperfect knockoffs of the LBX 10 in different sizes, which is why they were never quite as good, weight and slot wise, as the LBX 10.

The thing is, in a game where you might get one or two LBX as high level weapons, the balance is that they are rare and you’re unlikely to find one early game, and when you do, they’ll be competing with higher quality ACs which might give them a run for their money.

Basically, because it’s a progressive game, you get bigger mechs with more powerful weapons as you go along, rather than light and assault mechs, or LBX and ACs having to be balanced, some things can just be better, available as late game content.

Those things have to be balanced in MWO, because you have access to everything, and there’s no point in even having an inferior weapon in the game, but MW5 is going to be a very different kettle of fish.

Edited by Maddermax, 05 December 2019 - 04:48 PM.

[Koniving]

Nesutizale, on 05 December 2019 - 01:40 PM, said:

Nice finds Konivig. You think you can engineer something from the boss ai that could improve the standart ai or can you even make a new ai?
Also I see tank an vtol down there...do they have a seperate ai or is it the basic ai just for tanks?

Still wish for tanks and vtols to have an ai that takes their special capabilities into account like vtols can move up and down/potard so to speak and that tanks can be much better of driving in formations and concentrating fire.

Until getting the "full game" (beta has most if not the whole game including every tutorial clip there is, the in-game cinematics, the intro and at least one ending [didn't have much time to dig through that]), I can't do anything but tweak variables. Need to be able to properly open it. I think this "beta" demo was released this way because if you had the pre-release demo then got a refund, well you'd have the whole game. Technically we do but without the encryption key we can't go in and disable the demo mode.

I haven't had enough time to look through the boss AI, I just know it has more AI and it's seeking a firing position is more robust. Appears to be more cover fire oriented. MechCon goers, was there a "boss" or was it just enemies? There's enough to suggest a boss could be any weight class and still make decisions ideal for the load out.

Really though some of the AI can be improved by very minor tweaks. For example proximity trumps the AISense_Damage call to change targets. Since the ai unit is permitted a single target and the call to mark the closest enemy is higher on the over hierarchy than the very hidden damage sense call, the AI makes the switch to attack the attacker and as soon as the Wait command ends it reevaluates the tree and shoves itself to Target the closest enemy rather than continuing to focus the attacker.

I haven't had time to really sort through what's going on (notepadfing the scripts is...not the ideal way to look at a tree since the script jumps back and forth between different ones with references to others it's made to work as a unit of scripts not a single piece). But it could be as simple as a misplaced child node or an incorrect order or most likely it is always rechecking proximity and thus the AI could be smarter than we seen but because of one little mistake we get the derpy dance.

Seen aliens colonial Marines? A single A in a .ini file made the AI unable to tether to the environment and as such the aliens were effectively blind and unable to recognize their environment. Someone put "Teather" in a single line.

[Koniving]

Each "type" has separate ai. The tanks and helicopters don't have the issues that mechs do when it comes to picking a target. They are quite deliberate in their functions, though simpler. Interestingly with their simplicity the AI for the vehicles came across as smarter because they didn't behave unexpectedly, they didn't 'break'.

There is a generic blueprint for vehicles and VTOL to be able to add in new vehicles and VTOL which is good because the total vehicle count is a lot lower than I expected. (Seems it is true the model sharing with HBS was one way. These are new in models and the limited number of them...yeah.)

There's no concept of "we" or "others like me" in the game so there is no teamwork whatsoever. That would have to be put in. Any other "decorator" in the world whether trees, buildings, tanks, missiles, etc are classified as either structure or object. That other AI mech is an object. That tree is an object. That part of a building is indestructible so it is an object. My enemy is an object until registered as CombatTarget_C, now it's a target and I attack targets.

Uh oh an object is in my way. I should go around it.
This object is still in my way. Roll die.
Snake-eyes, *****, I got permission to destroy the object to progress to my target!
Else, try to go around object again.

Now for group tactics, many tanks could run similar packages and fool you but the spawn points don't spawn them close to each other and in too few numbers to create the illusion.

As for could I do that, with the toolkit I bought, and with MW5 unlocked, yes. But any changes I make would have to be given to your friends too in order to play together.

So if I make a mod and you use it and it changes ai behavior or weapons, they'd need it too. If it's like old unreal games it should download and use them automatically but I don't know how that would work here as those did that if the server was using them. Here you are the server.

Edited by Koniving, 05 December 2019 - 07:23 PM.

[Koniving]

Nesutizale, on 05 December 2019 - 02:02 PM, said:

The AC2 tanks attack at range is good but they are so spread and irratic in movement. Imagne that 2-4 of them are in formation. That could be some seriouse firepower even for a mech. Also it would look cool seeing the tracer ammo passing by. I think players would then even try to take cover from that? Searching for a better approach vector?

Tracers are a simple weapon effect. If you like the idea of shining tracers in the dark I can tack that on my list to have one of every so many shots give off a tracer. Army standard when I was in was something like 1 out of every 4 or 5 shots. A simple random chance may work too.

It's worth mentioning pgi had an issue with player butchering, so a lot seems to have gone into not slaughtering you.
That's a tough thing to balance. Increasing miss chances may help bring the thrill without outright slaughtering you.

[Koniving]

Yay it's gonna be a short work day. Following up on tracers, sarna up Tracer ammo. It's a normal ammo available.

I can just make sure there is a tracer ammo type and have long range vehicles use it rather than "everything" firing tracers.

Gonna mess with AI and see if I can cook up any ideas.
Need to give my findings to PGI on the target selection issue to see if they'd kindly tweak it.

Edited by Koniving, 05 December 2019 - 07:31 PM.

[Jackal Noble]

Koniving, on 05 December 2019 - 07:27 PM, said:

Yay it's gonna be a short work day. Following up on tracers, sarna up Tracer ammo. It's a normal ammo available.

I can just make sure there is a tracer ammo type and have long range vehicles use it rather than "everything" firing tracers.

Gonna mess with AI and see if I can cook up any ideas.
Need to give my findings to PGI on the target selection issue to see if they'd kindly tweak it.

Some of these hypothetical 'improvements' you describe require some extensive work (modeling, sound, triggers, animation, programming, rigging etc) and would require serious ability to just whip up.

Have you started working on any of these ideas? If you have any 3d models that would be cool to see. ahem.