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Can Someone Explain This Mw 5 Logic To Me Please?


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#1 Darian DelFord

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Posted 13 December 2019 - 11:14 AM

So I finally started playing it today. I saw a vid with The B33F on it and his reaction to no charge Gauss. Funny as usual when it comes to him, so I'm thinking OK will try it.


Get my Jenner D and WTH still only 14 points of armor on the Arms. Seriously? I am losing my arms like crazy....

The Jenner Discrimination has now gone to far.

Can someone please explain this logic to me?

#2 Koniving

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Posted 13 December 2019 - 11:18 AM

The logic of 14 armor on your arms?
Or the logic of the no charge gauss rifle?
Or the logic of Jenner discrimination?

(For the record, the Jenner on my team has lost its head twice, lost a leg once, and lost its CT multiple times... Lost an ST once and as a result the arm came off.. But has not just lost its arms prior to losing the ST. Also for some reason my Jenner likes to face-hug Hunchbacks for insta-death.)

#3 Darian DelFord

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Posted 13 December 2019 - 11:42 AM

I am piloting the Jenner.... Just my thing.... I put my lance mates in the heavier mechs ( Keeps them alive longer. AI is NOT PGI's strong suit).. My arms are being blow off like crazy. Have not been cored yet. Just ticking me off that my arms only have 14 armor and i am being made damn near weaponless in most matches.

#4 MeiSooHaityu

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Posted 13 December 2019 - 12:55 PM

View PostDarian DelFord, on 13 December 2019 - 11:42 AM, said:

I am piloting the Jenner.... Just my thing.... I put my lance mates in the heavier mechs ( Keeps them alive longer. AI is NOT PGI's strong suit).. My arms are being blow off like crazy. Have not been cored yet. Just ticking me off that my arms only have 14 armor and i am being made damn near weaponless in most matches.


The Jenner comes with low armor stock. Its just the way the mech is built.

To deal with this (In MW5 and HBS Battletech) I remove the SRM4 and ammo, and use the free'd up tonnage for armor. You can do this in the 'Detail' section of the Mechlab. If you want the AI lancemates to use it, I would remove the Jump Jets instead for armor and keep the SRM4. AI doesn't seem to use Jump Jets, so you might as well remove them for armor.

Edited by MeiSooHaityu, 13 December 2019 - 12:57 PM.


#5 Verilligo

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Posted 13 December 2019 - 01:07 PM

View PostMeiSooHaityu, on 13 December 2019 - 12:55 PM, said:

The Jenner comes with low armor stock. Its just the way the mech is built.

To deal with this (In MW5 and HBS Battletech) I remove the SRM4 and ammo, and use the free'd up tonnage for armor. You can do this in the 'Detail' section of the Mechlab. If you want the AI lancemates to use it, I would remove the Jump Jets instead for armor and keep the SRM4. AI doesn't seem to use Jump Jets, so you might as well remove them for armor.

He's not complaining that the armor is low stock. He's complaining that the Jenner has lower max possible armor on its arms than any other light mech. In exchange, it has more max possible armor on its STs. The same "buff" it was given in MWO, alongside the Jagermech, Stalker, and some other mech if memory serves. Sadly, all it actually ends up doing is nerfing the mechs harder, particularly in a world where the arms contain MOST of the guns and we don't have to worry about XL checks.

#6 MeiSooHaityu

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Posted 13 December 2019 - 01:18 PM

View PostVerilligo, on 13 December 2019 - 01:07 PM, said:

He's not complaining that the armor is low stock. He's complaining that the Jenner has lower max possible armor on its arms than any other light mech. In exchange, it has more max possible armor on its STs. The same "buff" it was given in MWO, alongside the Jagermech, Stalker, and some other mech if memory serves. Sadly, all it actually ends up doing is nerfing the mechs harder, particularly in a world where the arms contain MOST of the guns and we don't have to worry about XL checks.


This sounds like it might be more of a BT armor build rule thing than a MW5 thing. I'd double check, but it isn't easy to find things like this without really hunting for it.

#7 Darian DelFord

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Posted 13 December 2019 - 01:20 PM

View PostVerilligo, on 13 December 2019 - 01:07 PM, said:

He's not complaining that the armor is low stock. He's complaining that the Jenner has lower max possible armor on its arms than any other light mech. In exchange, it has more max possible armor on its STs. The same "buff" it was given in MWO, alongside the Jagermech, Stalker, and some other mech if memory serves. Sadly, all it actually ends up doing is nerfing the mechs harder, particularly in a world where the arms contain MOST of the guns and we don't have to worry about XL checks.


Yup

I just don't understand if this was intentional or just an oversight. I am hoping for an oversight.

View PostMeiSooHaityu, on 13 December 2019 - 01:18 PM, said:

This sounds like it might be more of a BT armor build rule thing than a MW5 thing. I'd double check, but it isn't easy to find things like this without really hunting for it.


NO this is how it was done in MWO to "Help" the Jenner. All it did was make it nigh unplayable.

#8 Jackal Noble

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Posted 13 December 2019 - 01:42 PM

View PostDarian DelFord, on 13 December 2019 - 11:42 AM, said:

I am piloting the Jenner.... Just my thing.... I put my lance mates in the heavier mechs ( Keeps them alive longer. AI is NOT PGI's strong suit).. My arms are being blow off like crazy. Have not been cored yet. Just ticking me off that my arms only have 14 armor and i am being made damn near weaponless in most matches.

Please for the sake of clarity, explain what the AI does not do? Or how is the AI not sufficient?

I find that this game actually has some very nice AI, with a variety of AI models based on the unit type. Go up on a cliff or drop down a multi-tiered face and watch your lance mates move in a way that echoes intelligent pathing.
Take a jump jet mech and go up a mountain, have a lancemate also with jjs, watch how well it paths.

The AI in this game is good. What do you honestly have to compare it to?

It's not an oversight.
Next time, maybe don't bring a knife to a gunfight.

#9 Koniving

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Posted 13 December 2019 - 01:46 PM

View PostMeiSooHaityu, on 13 December 2019 - 01:18 PM, said:

This sounds like it might be more of a BT armor build rule thing than a MW5 thing. I'd double check, but it isn't easy to find things like this without really hunting for it.


It's not.
It's a PGI thing due to the sheer size of the side hitboxes on the Jenner...which had to be done to reduce the oversized CT 'shaft' between the Jenner's head and body (something the actual Jenner doesn't have, because the actual Jenner doesn't have torso twist and its legs are hooked up just beside the arms).

All 35 tonners have universal max limits to armor in BT.

All mechs within any specified tonnage have universally identical max armor as well..

In MWO and MW5, this isn't the case for the Jenner and the Jagermech specifically.

Also, install "Mech Factory" on your phone.
Excellent Battletech source for vehicles, mechs, infantry, starships, etc.
It's like Sarna.net...
except accurate and word for word.
Also handy for exact stats and finding lore info on weapons mounted on them.
Spoiler

Edited by Koniving, 13 December 2019 - 01:56 PM.


#10 Koniving

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Posted 13 December 2019 - 02:12 PM

View PostJackal Noble, on 13 December 2019 - 01:42 PM, said:

Please for the sake of clarity, explain what the AI does not do? Or how is the AI not sufficient?



Reviewing games for a living, and I found this to be a very fair review.
Surprised Falcon from gameranx isn't the one reviewing, but that probably would've been more biased.

They're very on point with many of their reviews and I've bought games I thought I'd pass on based on their reviews and got exactly what they told me I would.

"Sometimes you have allies to which you can give commands, they're honestly kind of dumb sometimes.
"It can use some tweaks here and there which I think the developers will definitely keep up on." "I definitely think the AI needs to be improved big time."

Don't get me wrong, it's serviceable.
But the first mech I encountered I found an exploit in under a minute, and even gave it a chance by turning away to deal with what I deemed to be a greater threat, two vehicles, and the AI didn't take advantage of it.


To solve this situation, all it needed to do was switch to the Hit and Run strategy, go full speed from "Run" and outpace me, then go back into hit and run.
It couldn't think of doing it. It wasn't given instructions on what to do for the situation so it kept trying circle of death. And since I didn't outright become an obstacle for circle of death, it couldn't "derp" and then change strategies, instead I made it run into walls and even then it couldn't "derp and change." It had a singular mindset that it must do circle of death. When it finally did change its mind for hit and run, I was ignoring it and when my attention turned to it again, the thing immediately went back to circle of death.

Problem is during circle of death, it has a hard speed cap of below 64.8 kph which is why I kept up with it so easily. If it didn't have the speed cap we might even think it had a brain or maybe it could've pulled off some trick. But it's got a hard limit. It isn't so much that the AI is stupid, the AI is poorly set up.

A situation in the first mission after the tutorial makes another good case. AI spawns in cramped space, gets stuck on terrain. This is less specifically for the AI and more in how the spawn/navmesh was set up, but could be from the AI trying to do circle of death without a check to see if the area was clear enough for this tactic. (Running into non-building obstacles when engaging in combat in a cramped space is a frequent issue). J. Edgar Hoover hovercraft think they're tanks. 183 kph? Nope more like 20 kph.

Another clip I'll have uploaded later is the Griffin, which made me had to think about how to handle it due to my health condition and not knowing about the repair bay.
The praise I'll give it; prioritizing me when I get aggressive.
Destroying the generator instead of just engaging turrets individually.
The bashing I'll give it:
Griffin dude your PPC is broken, STOP trying to use it and get some distance, opt to retreat, or have an option to surrender, you are ******.
Why you no use your jumpjets?

Edited by Koniving, 13 December 2019 - 02:28 PM.


#11 justcallme A S H

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Posted 13 December 2019 - 02:36 PM

View PostMeiSooHaityu, on 13 December 2019 - 12:55 PM, said:


The Jenner comes with low armor stock. Its just the way the mech is built.


No.

The Jenner comes with the absolutely pants on head stupid balance decision made to armour values from MWO by the balance people that have no idea what they are doing. Other mechs have the same issue.


#12 Jackal Noble

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Posted 13 December 2019 - 02:43 PM

Kon,
no offense, you seem intelligent enough.
You are looking at singular instances of a system that is designed to function over many and various situations.
There is a serious flaw in that logic, you do realize that right?
It's a system that is meant to be a cumulative experience where a player can effectively play and enjoy a journey across the inner sphere and level their mechs and pilots up. It does that quite well.

It's not meant to be an experience where you start a game and are dead after two encounters. No one will enjoy that. That's not hard to do either.

Or if someone wants that, make an UBER-DEATHCORE mode then.

Your 'solutions' are creative and they sound neat, but to implement them is an entirely different matter.



Until you can demonstrably create something better, that isn't just turning up the AI aggressiveness or accuracy, I'm not going to take what you say seriously.

Edited by Jackal Noble, 13 December 2019 - 03:01 PM.


#13 Jackal Noble

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Posted 13 December 2019 - 02:57 PM

Further, AI becomes more aggressive as you get further along. A kitted medium lance in a 36 difficulty will have a much harder time than say 21.

#14 Prototelis

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Posted 13 December 2019 - 03:09 PM

Aggressive != good

The ai is bad.

The majority of the reviews on the game levy this complaint.

You are wrong.

#15 Jackal Noble

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Posted 13 December 2019 - 03:15 PM

View PostPrototelis, on 13 December 2019 - 03:09 PM, said:

Aggressive != good

The ai is bad.

The majority of the reviews on the game levy this complaint.

You are wrong.

There she is.
I can see the job market has treated you well.

Edited by Jackal Noble, 13 December 2019 - 03:16 PM.


#16 Unleashed3k

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Posted 13 December 2019 - 03:19 PM

View PostPrototelis, on 13 December 2019 - 03:09 PM, said:

Aggressive != good

The ai is bad.

The majority of the reviews on the game levy this complaint.

You are wrong.

Most people that review stuff are dumber then the AI, so ofc they can Judge about it....?
Reviews say… who cares.

If you don't like it, don't play it, or wait for Kon's Uber-AI, very simple....

First playthrough was so much fun and now playing the campaign in coop is even better!

And I don't know how much you played, but I don't think many people would like a better AI on the last 3 missions ^^

#17 CMDR Sunset Shimmer

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Posted 13 December 2019 - 03:20 PM

I'd have to say the AI is "Serviceable" It's not the worst AI I've seen by a long shot, but it has some room for improvement.

#18 Jackal Noble

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Posted 13 December 2019 - 03:23 PM

View PostUnleashed3k, on 13 December 2019 - 03:19 PM, said:

Most people that review stuff are dumber then the AI, so ofc they can Judge about it....?
Reviews say… who cares.

If you don't like it, don't play it, or wait for Kon's Uber-AI, very simple....

First playthrough was so much fun and now playing the campaign in coop is even better!

And I don't know how much you played, but I don't think many people would like a better AI on the last 3 missions ^^

Thank you lord Jeebus.
Also, I never said aggressive AI = better. I said the AI becomes more aggressive as you progress, which is how it should be.

#19 JediPanther

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Posted 13 December 2019 - 03:56 PM

Looks like my first mods if they arn't done before I make them are:

1.Small lights. **** RESCALE.
2. Armor back the 35ts. Double or more for the once-king of lights jenners.

It sucks *** they left on that dam 14 armor to arms nerf from mwo. ******* pgi man. Guess they went back to larger is better for mw5. Anything under 100t is cannon folder.

#20 justcallme A S H

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Posted 13 December 2019 - 04:03 PM

View PostUnleashed3k, on 13 December 2019 - 03:19 PM, said:

Most people that review stuff are dumber then the AI, so ofc they can Judge about it....?



Well you're not exactly smart either...

View PostUnleashed3k, on 22 November 2019 - 03:20 PM, said:


I remember you from the past, haven't played much last year, but I bet YOUR FRIENDLIST is nearly all PINK...
So I guess your words about such things have depth.... ^^

Posted Image



Accusing my friends of hacking - when they don't. Laughable intellect.





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