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Can Someone Explain This Mw 5 Logic To Me Please?

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#21 Prototelis


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Posted 13 December 2019 - 04:28 PM

View PostJackal Noble, on 13 December 2019 - 03:23 PM, said:

Thank you lord Jeebus.
Also, I never said aggressive AI = better.

Oh my bad, so you decided to include an observation that had nothing to do with the point you were trying to make. Cool


#22 Dee Eight


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Posted 13 December 2019 - 04:48 PM

View PostMeiSooHaityu, on 13 December 2019 - 12:55 PM, said:

The Jenner comes with low armor stock. Its just the way the mech is built.

No actually the jenner and a bunch of other mechs got stiffed last year with the usual PGI balancing nonsense of rather than giving structure or armor quirks to mechs with bad side torso hit boxes, they instead moved structure from their arms to the side torsos and thus reduced the armor the arms could carry and increased the armor the side torsos could carry, and that nonsense got carried over into the coding for MW5. On a mech like the cicada who's arms don't contain weapons ever this isn't a bad thing but on mechs like jenners, stalkers and jaggermechs... its not very helpful at all. Fortunately once they deliver the editor, we can go in and change those mechs base structure and armor values back to the same as for other 35, 40. 65 and 85 ton mechs that didn't get ruined by PGI.

The following 'Mechs have had some of their Arm Structure and Max Armor Points re-distributed from their Arm Locations into their Torso locations:
  • Jenner
  • Jenner IIC
  • Cicada
  • Jagermech
  • Stalker"


#23 Jackal Noble


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Posted 13 December 2019 - 05:02 PM

View PostPrototelis, on 13 December 2019 - 04:28 PM, said:

Oh my bad, so you decided to include an observation that had nothing to do with the point you were trying to make. Cool


Make sense.
Do I need to quote you for you to understand that I was addressing multiple comments? didn't think so.

#24 Prototelis


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Posted 13 December 2019 - 05:20 PM


#25 Jackal Noble


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Posted 13 December 2019 - 06:26 PM

I second that opinion.

#26 LordNothing


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Posted 13 December 2019 - 06:34 PM

View PostDarian DelFord, on 13 December 2019 - 11:42 AM, said:

I am piloting the Jenner.... Just my thing.... I put my lance mates in the heavier mechs ( Keeps them alive longer. AI is NOT PGI's strong suit).. My arms are being blow off like crazy. Have not been cored yet. Just ticking me off that my arms only have 14 armor and i am being made damn near weaponless in most matches.

i got me an oxide. srm bombers are really fun in mw5.

found an archer too, that and a couple ppc boats, order them to loiter outside the objective and let them draw the mechs away, while i sneak in in a squirrel and do the objective. really effective for raids and demolition missions. now i just need to find me a narc (lostech? the demo had one).

Edited by LordNothing, 13 December 2019 - 06:38 PM.

#27 5th Fedcom Rat


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Posted 14 December 2019 - 12:16 AM

View PostKoniving, on 13 December 2019 - 02:12 PM, said:

"I definitely think the AI needs to be improved big time."

The fact he threw that single sentence in at the end in passing, rather than devoting any time in the rest of his review to discussing AI and explaining how it could supposedly be improved, tells me the AI actually had no meaningful impact on his enjoyment of the game one way or the other. I suspect he mentioned it because he saw it was a common complaint on MWO forums (among people who have unrealistic expectations of what AI is capable of). The guy relies on his youtube videos as his primary source of income, so of course he's going to read all the forums and make sure he includes every common complaint at least once so he looks like he's on the ball. It's all part of serving his audience exactly what they want to hear so he can maintain his 5.37 million subscribers... even when some of the things he says aren't even his own opinions. Journalists, politicians and entertainers are well acquainted with the art of popular opinion regurgitation.

#28 Koniving

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Posted 14 December 2019 - 12:39 AM

It's possible.

Game Ranx is a group of several people and is owned by Ian Cheong. Jake Baldino has his own channel, but is one of the personalities on GR that goes on video. Another is Falcon. They have multiple journalists pumping out multiple articles a day.

But it wasn't a single sentence.
It's mentioned twice, once much earlier in regards to the ally AI. I confess it'd be nice if they gave specific examples, but that'd actually hurt the desire to purchase the game. Now separately he said he seen complaints about balance, and then said he personally thought the AI could use some improvement.

(AI can also simply refer to, and I quote him, "the NPCs are really stiff, almost as if they are mechs themselves." There's barely a "look at player" for Ryana and she's locked in Idle Animation 5. Fahad says he's gonna fix the Centurion but he stands there with a thousand-yard stare like he's seen some ****. But with the number of vehicles, I saw getting stuck in the first post-tutorial mission, the lack of desire to survive [vehicles are now even less likely to attempt to evade your aim than in the demo; helicopters don't even try to evade your aim anymore].. it does add up. And if he read up on the forums, I doubt the "I'm sure they'll stay on top of it" would never have made it onto that video since the negativity on PGI producing a finished product was/is pretty high.)

#29 Anomalocaris


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Posted 14 December 2019 - 12:56 AM

View PostJackal Noble, on 13 December 2019 - 02:43 PM, said:

Until you can demonstrably create something better, that isn't just turning up the AI aggressiveness or accuracy, I'm not going to take what you say seriously.

The irony in this statement is thick.

#30 KharnZor


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Posted 14 December 2019 - 03:12 AM

View PostAnomalocaris, on 14 December 2019 - 12:56 AM, said:

The irony in this statement is thick.

Everything about this thread is thick.

#31 Koniving

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Posted 14 December 2019 - 05:19 AM

View PostJackal Noble, on 13 December 2019 - 02:43 PM, said:

Until you can demonstrably create something better, that isn't just turning up the AI aggressiveness or accuracy, I'm not going to take what you say seriously.

In terms of close combat hit and run.
Here's an AI that knows to pull away when it can no longer fire (reload/cooldown).
When you reach the Griffin, destroy his PPC.
He has no intelligence to pull away when he can no longer fire, and will not go to LRM range.

Skipping to 2:44
Communicating AI -- and I don't mean saying stuff.
I mean at any given instant, only 2 Combine Soldiers can fire at once, any others fall into cover, reload, etc. Soon as one needs to reload another one jumps in to fire. They immediately return to cover.
They will try to take cover before reloading (i.e. when they cannot shoot anymore), may throw grenades but will try not to shoot each other or throw grenades at each other (just in that alone it demonstrates considerably better intelligence).
They would also try to flank the player if the player is hiding. When flanking they will go around to your side or back.
(The AI in MW5 will just try to close in and either go through cover or pick a path around, and will just go to you. Helicopters will literally fly in front of you before shooting).

If you go further, there's even how the soldiers react to other enemies of other factions, such as specific behaviors against Antlions which are designed to make them lose against Antlions to present those insects as a greater threat. They will not keep their distance.
Meanwhile, the soldiers usually win against zombies, where they will try to keep their distance. Note that the soldiers above are finding firing angles and firing without advancing or going into danger and are quick to find new firing angles when the current one doesn't work.

Here's another example from the same source, a long-range type.

Once the player is detected but out of view, they systematically destroy props to reduce how much cover you have.
Snipers fire ahead of where the target is going rather than directly at the target (leading the target).
After 4 minutes it goes into the weird quirks of what happens when they're spawned out of context.

And here, we have a basic grunt/cop/thug.
From 2:33
"CPS reports to the Overwatch voice, who acts as a dispatcher, relaying orders and information. Officers also talk to each other."
So when they are triggered to act, they report to an HQ. The HQ instructs them on what to do, and relays information to other units so that they can do things like cut you off, flank you, or have others come find you when you try to hide.
7:30, you will notice that unlike Combine soldiers, the CPS have no firing discipline, everyone will fire and they spend their magazines very quickly, leading several to need to reload in very short order and a long gap in fire because of it rather than a constant stream of fire that would otherwise pin you down. They are also considerably less accurate.
7:49, due to the knockback mechanic of the police taser if you're hit by one into an inaccessible area, you'd get "respawned" or teleported away from it to prevent map clipping. (So the AI is literally able to tell when it knocks you out of the map and can teleport you back into the map).
Flaming barrels after 8 minutes don't count; they're scripted sequences.
Will hide behind objects while waiting for the player to approach for ambushes.

CPS/Soldiers report to Overwatch, informing Overwatch of what kind of enemy they are facing, and the last soldier reports the location is overrun. Requests for reinforcements may come before or after the last man standing.

What Overwatch (HQ) does here is the sort of what I would be introducing once I can mess with the AI, directing subordinates and dishing out orders. Except in my case, it'd be a lot more than simply barks (communication lines).
Overall, the humanoid AI of CPS and Soldiers displays teamwork, recognition, and acknowledgment of fellow AI actors in which harm to teammates is avoided by refusing to fire on fellow teammates and refusing to use explosives when a teammate is in proximity of the target. The soldiers coordinate firing roles to keep up a steady level of fire, ensuring that there is no letting up on live fire and no dead periods in which weapons are not firing. Snipers actively work to destroy potential cover when you are using cover. Snipers fire ahead of you rather than at you so that the long range shot will assuredly hit you. CPS may deploy airborne drones to provide support. CPS officers with long-range weapons will actively fire over fellow CPS cops' shoulders in order to hit you while NOT hitting their allies.

This AI is 15 years old. It has many similarities to an older, similar AI that is 21 years old.

What is exhibited by the AI in MW5, would be expected of an Indie game on its first few low budget titles.
It is comparable to the AI of Takedown: Red Sabre. (If reading the metacritic reviews is fun, should read the steam reviews; it's more fun than the actual game.)

The MW5 AI's behavior is similar to Colonial Marines, before fixing "Teather to Tether."

The dance done by the alien at 1:12 was actually performed by a J.Edgar Hoover hovercraft in MW5 as my second encounter with enemy vehicles, when one spawned in a road leading into where I was, and immediately tried to perform a circle of death on me, running into the wall and trying to climb it, before it released it derped, stopped, had to turn in place, come out of the tight space, and then tried to circle of death again until it collided with a building by which time I put an end to its life.

Even with the spelling correction, the Aliens in Aliens Colonial Marines are well, a little better. But it took a mod made by the perosn that discovered the typo (whom says he had been working on his mod for 3 years before discovering the typo). His mod does a few things including increase their speed, and the difference is described as night and day.

What the AI does in MW5, is effectively similar to Pacman. That is to say the AI vehicles and mechs will engage their target and move with respect to that target. If pacman is moving up, a ghost is trying to move to be above Pacman. Another is trying to move to be to the right of Pacman. Another is trying to move to be to the bottom right of Pacman, and the final ghost is trying to move to be to the upper-left of Pacman. This gives the illusion of personalities and intelligence.
For MW5, it is demonstrated with the spider.
Note what happens here

at 0:38 seconds, the AI switches from "Reach target" and that high speed to "Circle of Death"
Despite appearing to be at full stride, it's now going slower than 64 kph.
At 0:51 seconds, I decide to employ an exploit I learned from Beta, trying to cut off the circle.
As I get close, it responds by trying to maintain distance. I was counting on this, and as such I begin steering it into a wall.
Unable to recognize that wall as an obstacle that would prevent further circle of death strategies, it again tries to resume the circle of death behavior tree by moving with respect to my location.
I cause it to again crash into the wall at 1:07 by making course corrections that cause it to steer into the wall again. This is because the AI is unable to determine that it needs to reduce speed in order to make the sharper turn it is trying to do to avoid the wall.
At 1:11, I put it in a situation where I have a severe advantage. The only thing it needs to do is increase speed to get appropriate distance. It cannot because it is not permitted to do so or does not know that it needs to.
At 1:21, I have written off the Spider as a minimal threat and decide instead to engage the FAR MORE THREATENING TANKS...
I ignore the spider.
The spider thought I was retreating, and pulled away to let me escape only turning around to engage me after I turn around... this is not indicative behavior of a raider / pirate.
However, AI is not specific to the faction being played.
1:47, despite the spider's renewed interest I ignore it until this point because I have finally destroyed all serious threats and can now return my attention on the most pathetic target I've faced thus far.

The AI has me targeted with the arm crosshair, but is unable to comprehend that at these angles the torso crosshair cannot properly aim at me up til 2:07 where I finally allow it to get a bead on me. A simple jump in the air and aiming at me would easily have remedied the issue, but AI can't jump.
2:14 the AI is down.
Shortly after I try the cinematic view but to my disappointment, despite using a wired 360 controller the camera does not react to any inputs.

In the past, several people have presented numerous AI comparisons that you simply ignored, so I do not think this will be any different. And every example I gave in the past was FAR more than accuracy or aggressiveness differences. In fact, often the ones I showed are less accurate, but exhibit more intelligence, more states of being, recognize each other's existence as more than an obstacle to destroy, and exhibit other behaviors that show an ability to assess the situation and act accordingly. Showcased in the spider's video, MW5's AI has failed especially in the ability to assess the situation and act accordingly.



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Posted 15 December 2019 - 01:16 PM


Yeah, the Jag is really bad for players.
So much incoming random fire spam from every direction, most of the time both arms are gone while the torsos are still yellow.

Heh, and the Stalker, without high large laser mounts is not exactly a great mech in MW5.

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