228 replies to this topic

[Prototelis]

If someone has a big win rate and a low average match score they're obviously being carried lol.

[PhoenixFire55]

VonBruinwald, on 29 December 2019 - 12:19 PM, said:

*Fixed.

Whatever really. You anti-team and anti-friends agenda is well known here for years. Cry about someone farming stats and sync-dropping all you want, because in the end of the day I'm not the one who is afraid of a 1v1 challenge. I got facts, stats and actual skill behind my words. You got nothing. Because we both know that in a fair fight you supposedly crave so much I will easily wipe the floor with both you and D8. I dare you to prove me wrong, which of course you won't.

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

Fight, fight, fight, fight, fight, fight, fight, fight, fight, fight, fight, fight, fight, fight, fight, fight!

eh.. I meant drink, ofc

the heck, just do both

Edited by Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, 30 December 2019 - 03:58 AM.

[Prototelis]

Mang, the one and only time I took a forum challenge it went down in Solaris and everyone dove the ******* Q after the first match.

Literally fighting all of the dumbest **** in a fle.

[VonBruinwald]

PhoenixFire55, on 30 December 2019 - 02:34 AM, said:

Whatever really. You anti-team and anti-friends agenda is well known here for years. Cry about someone farming stats and sync-dropping all you want, because in the end of the day I'm not the one who is afraid of a 1v1 challenge. I got facts, stats and actual skill behind my words. You got nothing. Because we both know that in a fair fight you supposedly crave so much I will easily wipe the floor with both you and D8. I dare you to prove me wrong, which of course you won't.

Living the PUGlife I'm entitled to whine about try-hards farming stats by synch-dropping QP, IT'S MY PRIVILEGE!

And I got nothing against teamplay and playing with friends, just keep it in Group play, FW and 2v2 S7 where it belongs.

As for the whole "1v1 me bro", I'm down. Next time we drop together give me a shout out, hell, give me a grid ref away from the main conflict and I'll come whatever I'm rolling in, although it might take a while to get there if I'm Urbing it up. You, me and a couple of Stock (unquirked) Thunderbolt-9s' on River City; if you're going to tutor me on the basics, let's do as the honourable Captain Adams intended.

I'm always down for a 1v1 and will happily challenge people when I spot 'em in quickplay. Next time I see you, I'll holla.

[MischiefSC]

Vxheous, on 24 December 2019 - 07:16 AM, said:

Yup, when he started talking about a Centurian, and 50 armour, my first thought was wtf. So I went and looked at my Yen Lo Wang:


The reason why assaults don't push first is because once an assault commits, it's in for the duration of the fight. There is low chance for an assault to disengage, and any assault that "pushes" will get immediately deleted by a firing line if opposition is actually competent and smart (lolz in today's nascar age). Heavies and fast (like 100+ kph) mediums make the best pushers because they can actually 1. close distance, and 2. Shoot and duck/rotate into cover/each other to prevent getting massacred by the firing line. There is more to mechwarrior than simply "sharing armour, starting with who has the most armour", there is also the concept of sharing aggro. The best trade is when you can hold the attention of the enemy, do damage, and take no damage of your own (as in shoot, have opponents looking towards your lane of fire, but unable to hit you due to terrain, etc.) This is usually best exemplified in comp play since it's most organized style of play (I'm not really talking about comp play here), but works in basically all forms of play (quick play, faction play depending on mode, group queue RIP) even in the age of nascar.

It's also been mentioned that "why push" when you don't have to, which is totally true. There was mention about needing to "push" to your home cap in assault if you're getting capped out, if you're in that situation, and you have to rely on an 50-65 kph assault to "get to the cap", you have bigger problems in your game.

You're correct, but we're several years too late to get people dead set in making bad choices to change their minds.

The absolute best 'guy to lead the push' is one light who gets 3 enemy heavy/assaults to turn and take their guns off the line.

KCom dominated the 'W key is Win key' meta for many years and that wasn't done with slow assaults, it was 12 LBKs because for brawling SPEED is 99% of the time better than ARMOR. Wasted enemy shots are wasted heat. It's not just about the damage you take or don't take right now it's about the damage they CAN'T do later because they're heatcapped. Also about total number of times the enemy can shoot before you've pushed them out of their position and nobody has any cover. 12 LBKs scooting up at 100+ kips for 70+ damage snuggles overwhelms pretty much anything, it's all backshots and 200+ damage alphas as you evaporate whatever in a hail of missiles.

You push because your team has better heat sustainable brawl damage output than the enemy and you can get it into position before they can destroy you. A slow push is a bad push. If you have to slow push you need to walk 12 mechs in a line toward the enemy all at once so you're massing focus fire on whoever leaves cover on the other side and dishing more than you're taking. If you have to choke point push then the first guy in is the Spartan - again, doesn't matter how much armor he's got because he's going to get absolutely demolished but his job is 10x more about TWISTING damage and sinking enemy heat than about straight armor. He should be twisting like crazy and if he can eat 2 full enemy team volleys you're golden. Enemy team has wasted 2 alphas of heat (which is near heat cap for a lot of builds) and the rest of your team has cleared the choke and gotten a gunline or cover or closed to brawl. That's essentially every gate push on Emerald Taiga or Boreal Vault ever.

All of which is viable for coordinated teams with a coordinated deck. For QP, the only point of a push is the hope that the other team is more cowardly than your own. Admittedly it's a pretty safe gamble because the vast, vast majority of this game plays like absolute abject cowards. 8 out of 12 people on any team would, if they could get away with it, leg their teammates on principle in hopes of just being the last to die. Universally when you do get a pug team to push you will literally core out and kill enemies through the back because they will turn and run in the open and die rather than at least stand and do what damage they can.

Push game is my game but I don't consider it most the time in QP because in QP most people on both teams are, at best, at absolute literal best, pathetic. Bad builds, bad shots, bad positioning, scared of getting hit and would rather lose but be last one to die than die early and drive a win.

That's why NASCAR exists. It's not complicated. Because most players just get into every match hoping against hope they'll find someone worse at the game than they are, catch them out alone and kill them before getting rekt. Positioning, trading, coordination, good vs bad places to hold or push, why any given build is good or bad, may as well ask them to paint a better Sistine Chapel. They stuck stuff on the pretend giant robot until it said they couldn't put more on, they want to find a red Doritos, hope it's bad enough that they can kill it by pressing buttons on their joystick.

Sorry for the screed but a half dozen pages of back and forth trying to overthink something simple. NASCAR is a thing because following someone else is easier than thinking, and nobody wants caught out alone and even 7 years later a depressingly small number of players actually understand where to go on any map or why. So they follow whoever moves first.

[Khobai]

I still think a big part of the problem is spawn locations. Since nascar always goes counterclockwise assaults should always spawn in the spot farthest to the right. But a lot of the time they dont.

Assaults with a headstart can somewhat keep up with their team. But assaults that start behind will always be behind.

The other big problem is heavy mechs are still moving way too fast for their tonnage. Heavies that move the speed of mediums hurts both medium mechs and assaults. Slowing down heavies would help reinforce the role of mediums and allow assaults to keep pace better. PGI never balanced the weight classes properly and the game has suffered immensely for it.

But PGI will never fix either of those problems.

Edited by Khobai, 30 December 2019 - 01:17 PM.

[Warning incoming Humble Dexterer]

Prototelis, on 29 December 2019 - 04:58 PM, said:

If someone has a big win rate and a low average match score they're obviously being carried lol.

If someone has a big win rate they're being carried.

[Prototelis]

lol no.

[dario03]

Humble Dexter, on 01 January 2020 - 01:59 PM, said:

If someone has a big win rate they're being carried.

How big of a win rate?
And I think it would more so show if they play a lot of big groups than being carried. Being in big good groups can get your w/l up but you could be performing good.
But again what would be a big win rate that shows they are running these groups?

[Dee Eight]

dario03, on 01 January 2020 - 02:32 PM, said:

How big of a win rate?

Well I saw one fellow yesterday who's win rate was above 2 but his kdr # was barely 1,,, and he belonged to a unit with good members... so i would assume he's a seat filler for their drops who's just their to tank for others.

[Prototelis]

KDR is about meaningless.

[justcallme A S H]

Humble Dexter, on 01 January 2020 - 01:59 PM, said:

If someone has a big win rate they're being carried.

lolwhat?

If you have a high win rate and match score - you are the carryALL, for the most part.

Some seasons my WLR is garbage. It varies wildly from 3.0+ down to 1.8... Kills and Match Score stay similar though and that is the nature of YoloQ. Some games it doesn't matter what you do - you cannot carry 4+ players who consistently output sub 99dmg and thus have absolutely no business being past Tier 4...

But that is the fundamentally broken PSR system for you...

Dee Eight, on 01 January 2020 - 04:05 PM, said:

Well I saw one fellow yesterday who's win rate was above 2 but his kdr # was barely 1,,, and he belonged to a unit with good members... so i would assume he's a seat filler for their drops who's just their to tank for others.

You have no place to be commenting on anyones stats.

It's been proven time and time again you lack the understanding to know what they mean.

[cougurt]

Humble Dexter, on 01 January 2020 - 01:59 PM, said:

If someone has a big win rate they're being carried.

in that case, someone is still doing the winning for them. this makes the complete opposite of sense.

[Vxheous]

Dee Eight, on 01 January 2020 - 04:05 PM, said:

Well I saw one fellow yesterday who's win rate was above 2 but his kdr # was barely 1,,, and he belonged to a unit with good members... so i would assume he's a seat filler for their drops who's just their to tank for others.

Define "good" unit

[dario03]

Dee Eight, on 01 January 2020 - 04:05 PM, said:

Well I saw one fellow yesterday who's win rate was above 2 but his kdr # was barely 1,,, and he belonged to a unit with good members... so i would assume he's a seat filler for their drops who's just their to tank for others.

That has 2 stats to work off of like Prototelis' original post though (but with exchanging avgms for kdr). I asked Humble for clarification because he quoted Proto and said you only needed winrate. I was wondering how high a winrate would need to be to assume its mostly group play, and also how just one stat could prove some one was getting carried?

[Vxheous]

dario03, on 01 January 2020 - 04:26 PM, said:

That has 2 stats to work off of like Prototelis' original post though (but with exchanging avgms for kdr). I asked Humble for clarification because he quoted Proto and said you only needed winrate. I was wondering how high a winrate would need to be to assume its mostly group play, and also how just one stat could prove some one was getting carried?

Also, group queue has essentially ceased to exist, yet there's still players with W/L 3+, with some in the 5s 6s ( small sample sizes, probably would drop down into the 3s with more games).....so who's carrying them in solo queue every game?

Edited by Vxheous, 01 January 2020 - 04:34 PM.

[cougurt]

Vxheous, on 01 January 2020 - 04:32 PM, said:

Also, group queue has essentially ceased to exist, yet there's still players with W/L 3+, with some in the 5s 6s.....so who's carrying them in solo queue every game?

clearly it's the randomly selected potatoes who lose more often than they win.

[justcallme A S H]

dario03, on 01 January 2020 - 04:26 PM, said:

That has 2 stats to work off of like Prototelis' original post though (but with exchanging avgms for kdr). I asked Humble for clarification because he quoted Proto and said you only needed winrate. I was wondering how high a winrate would need to be to assume its mostly group play, and also how just one stat could prove some one was getting carried?

I'm gonna need a big bucket of popcorn for the reply that'll come to this post

Either that or a translator to explain the absolutely nonsense reply.

cougurt, on 01 January 2020 - 04:33 PM, said:

clearly it's the randomly selected potatoes who lose more often than they win.

lol......


And yeah. GroupQ being entirely dead for 6 months - it cannot form basis of a reliable argument anymore.

[Vxheous]

This is my best summary of how to tell by stats if someone's W/L is being carried:
They have a W/L of 4+ (that's winning at least 80% of the games you play)
yet:
under 1.0 K/D
under 180 average match score

Guaranteed someone with stats like that would not have a W/L above 1.0 without significant carry.

Edit: BTW, there are lots of Tier 1 PSR players with under 1.0 K/D and under 180 average match score...

Edited by Vxheous, 01 January 2020 - 04:50 PM.