228 replies to this topic

[Dee Eight]

For that matter, its the ONLY time that engine crits matter at all... can be raked up the CT by flamers and MGs and LBX over and over and never take a single engine critical hit. But all the structure is gone from the side torso and poof that matters ?! Please.... its merely lazy game coders.

[The Jewce Iz Loose]

Queue Salt n Pepper "Push It"

[C E Dwyer]

stop voting for nascar maps is one idea..

[PhoenixFire55]

Hazeclaw, on 24 December 2019 - 08:20 AM, said:

No, you should actively try to close range to where you're effective, or set an ambush where you expect the enemy to pass shortly at your effective range.

I find these stratagems in a vacuum quite adorable ... sure, set an ambush ... by yourself ... and then have 9 enemy mechs walk into it and knock your face in.

What people seem to fail to understand is that there will never be any semblance of teamplay in QP. Thats just the nature of F2P gaming. And without teamplay any sort of advanced tactics is impossible.

Everyone in this game obviously thinks he is essential for his team success. And everyone obviously will try to prolong his life as much as possible at the expense of lives of others. Thus the nascar is born. But nascar in fact is just a process of natural selection, everyone does it, but whoever does it better survives longer. Better players adapt faster, live longer and impact the match the most. Exactly as it should be in the no-teamplay environment.

Hazeclaw, on 24 December 2019 - 08:20 AM, said:

In FP I get to play lights all the time, it's basically a mandatory requirement. You're right I haven't played lights in qp for a while since it's more difficult to carry the match with them. Not sure why you brought this up as if you could read you'd see I think lights are the only class that shouldn't take the most direct path to enemy

Playing lights and in fact any class in FP has little to nothing in common with playing same class in QP. I brought this up because there is no difference in the approach to nascar between the classes. Details are slightly different, lighter mechs have shorter weapon range in general, less DPS in general, obviously less health, but more speed and poke-ability. But essentially all mechs should do exactly the same thing ... move, shoot, reposition, shoot, repeat until enemy dead.

Lights can and do take longer routes around the map because 1) they got the speed for it, 2) since they are short ranged they have far less options for trades and need to find more advanced angles 3) since they usually run relatively hot they have long periods they cool off and thus can afford a longer route. Assaults are obviously the opposite, but they should still reposition all the time, since trading from the same is a death sentence coz 1) the enemy will know that spot and have his guns pointed at it and 2) they will similarly flank that position and wreck your side/back.

Everything in between, i.e. heavies and mediums follow the exact same patterns, with their "rotation round the rosy radius", engagement range and exposure time (damage taken) being somewhat in between the lights and the assaults. Nascar in fact creates a perfect environment for each class to do exactly what its supposed to do, i.e. max out its mobility, its DPS, its engagement range and its armor use.

But what I mean by nascar is exactly that - a situation where each class does max these things out. What happens so often in QP isn't nascar, its just bads being bad, i.e. run around not shooting or heavier mechs hopelessly chasing around their lighter teammates. And obviously when that happens dominos fall real quick. But as I have said, this is not nascar, this is idiocy.

All in all, hearing all the complaining about "nascar" from the people who has literally zero clue about whats happening in any given match makes me sick. Examples: I lead the nascar in a 50kph Fafnir. Another assault from my lance parks himself somewhere in zimbabwe, gets erased by enemy light mechs and start complaing how "team left him behind". Obviously if the slowest mech got away no problem, so could he. He didn't, got wrecked, blames his team. I.e. idiocy. Another example, entire team nascars a little, meets the enemy firing line, stops, forms its own firing line pointing towards the heavier mechs they were trying to catch up and stands still doing nothing while lighter enemy mechs poke at them and kill them. Backrow deadweight assaults who parked themselves in a completely open space die first and complain about "nascar" while in fact the rest of their team stands perfectly in cover 300m away from them. Nascar? No, again - idiocy.

See my point?

[PhoenixFire55]

FRAGTAST1C, on 24 December 2019 - 07:45 PM, said:

I'm not justifying idiocy. I'm just saying that such terrible tactics exhibited by stat-padding players has resulted in a lot of terrible moments in QP. Plus, there are those in the light mechs that die within the first few seconds of enemy contact. It happens over and over again.

Hence my initial post to the OP suggesting that 500 damage and a kill is what he should be aiming for in QP, regardless of the type of assault mech, as a bare minimum until some guy back there came in and went "reeeeeeeeeeeeeeee".

Sorry, but padding what stats exactly? ... I'm going to pad that W/L all day long and anyone who disagrees can frankly gfhs.

Nascar has nothing to do with stat padding, read my reply to Hazeclaw just above. Its a natural selection, nothing more. Given we only have a no-teamplay environment in QP, it is a good thing.

Light mechs dieing right away have nothing to do with anything, its just idiocy for the most part. Happens to all of us, I've had plenty of sub 100 dmg games in a light mech over the years.

500 dmg and a kill is what he should aim at in any class. On a good team 300-400 dmg and a 1-2 kills, on a bad team 600-700 dmg and 3-4 kills. You do that every single time, you know you are a good player.

Vxheous, on 25 December 2019 - 06:46 AM, said:

holy ****, Dee Eight is becoming an elitist

Shame nobody told him he looks even stupider cuter than usual given his sub 1.0 W/L and KDR.

[Prototelis]

PhoenixFire55, on 25 December 2019 - 03:52 PM, said:

Shame nobody told him he looks even stupider cuter than usual given his sub 1.0 W/L and KDR.

bUt oN My tIeR 4 AlTs....

[K O Z A K]

PhoenixFire55, on 25 December 2019 - 03:41 PM, said:

I find these stratagems in a vacuum quite adorable ... sure, set an ambush ... by yourself ... and then have 9 enemy mechs walk into it and knock your face in.

What people seem to fail to understand is that there will never be any semblance of teamplay in QP. Thats just the nature of F2P gaming. And without teamplay any sort of advanced tactics is impossible.

Well that's the problem, you shouldn't be by yourself. If your team yourself included aren't a bunch of selfish aholes, every brawler should be together at their effective range, the mid range mechs should be behind them at their effective range, and the long range mechs behind them at their effective range. Everyone should be actively trying to engage targets. Instead what happens is everyone just turns right and runs away.

PhoenixFire55, on 25 December 2019 - 03:41 PM, said:

Everyone in this game obviously thinks he is essential for his team success. And everyone obviously will try to prolong his life as much as possible at the expense of lives of others. Thus the nascar is born. But nascar in fact is just a process of natural selection, everyone does it, but whoever does it better survives longer. Better players adapt faster, live longer and impact the match the most. Exactly as it should be in the no-teamplay environment.

Seriously? I don't see this, just because people turn and run away from enemies engaging them from the left, I don't see how that makes them better players. But yes, in the end you do end up in a situation where if you don't nascar you die because most do.

PhoenixFire55, on 25 December 2019 - 03:41 PM, said:

Playing lights and in fact any class in FP has little to nothing in common with playing same class in QP. I brought this up because there is no difference in the approach to nascar between the classes. Details are slightly different, lighter mechs have shorter weapon range in general, less DPS in general, obviously less health, but more speed and poke-ability. But essentially all mechs should do exactly the same thing ... move, shoot, reposition, shoot, repeat until enemy dead.

Playing all classes is exactly the same in QP and FP, the only difference is in QP you will have to abandon teammates to die because if you don't they will abandon you to die. In FP people tend to engage the enemy more, and run away less

PhoenixFire55, on 25 December 2019 - 03:41 PM, said:

Light Stuff

Yes

PhoenixFire55, on 25 December 2019 - 03:41 PM, said:

Nascar in fact creates a perfect environment for each class to do exactly what its supposed to do, i.e. max out its mobility, its DPS, its engagement range and its armor use.

But what I mean by nascar is exactly that - a situation where each class does max these things out. What happens so often in QP isn't nascar, its just bads being bad, i.e. run around not shooting or heavier mechs hopelessly chasing around their lighter teammates. And obviously when that happens dominos fall real quick. But as I have said, this is not nascar, this is idiocy.

All in all, hearing all the complaining about "nascar" from the people who has literally zero clue about whats happening in any given match makes me sick. Examples: I lead the nascar in a 50kph Fafnir. Another assault from my lance parks himself somewhere in zimbabwe, gets erased by enemy light mechs and start complaing how "team left him behind". Obviously if the slowest mech got away no problem, so could he. He didn't, got wrecked, blames his team. I.e. idiocy. Another example, entire team nascars a little, meets the enemy firing line, stops, forms its own firing line pointing towards the heavier mechs they were trying to catch up and stands still doing nothing while lighter enemy mechs poke at them and kill them. Backrow deadweight assaults who parked themselves in a completely open space die first and complain about "nascar" while in fact the rest of their team stands perfectly in cover 300m away from them. Nascar? No, again - idiocy.

See my point?

Ugh, I just don't see how an environment where the mechs with the most firepower are chasing the pack and not shooting equates to maxing out its mobility, its DPS, its engagement range and its armor use. Just because you manage to get your fatnir to the front of the nascar doesn't make nascar a legit tactic, it just means all the faster mechs were worse at the dumbest tactic possible than you. If they were as convinced as you that the only way to play was to run right and turn left you'd be the dumba** in the back eaten by lights and mediums

For your examples I can give plenty of where my team has the enemy in a perfect trap, ready to obliterate them in a funnel, and as soon as the first enemy mech comes in, 3/4 of the team turns right and leaves. It pisses me off to no end when I see all the medium/heavy/assault mechs with 0% heat, running right as the enemy team is closing in on the left.

Look, I don't argue that at this point nascaring is basically more or less the only way to win in QP, but lets not pretend it's the best way to win because it just isn't. It's basically a case of everyone is doing dumb s**t, so join them and probably die, or don't and much more likely die. QP IS nascar, and it's f***ing dumb

[FRAGTAST1C]

PhoenixFire55, on 25 December 2019 - 03:52 PM, said:

Sorry, but padding what stats exactly? ... I'm going to pad that W/L all day long and anyone who disagrees can frankly gfhs.

Nascar has nothing to do with stat padding, read my reply to Hazeclaw just above. Its a natural selection, nothing more. Given we only have a no-teamplay environment in QP, it is a good thing.

Light mechs dieing right away have nothing to do with anything, its just idiocy for the most part. Happens to all of us, I've had plenty of sub 100 dmg games in a light mech over the years.

500 dmg and a kill is what he should aim at in any class. On a good team 300-400 dmg and a 1-2 kills, on a bad team 600-700 dmg and 3-4 kills. You do that every single time, you know you are a good player.

The last part is my main point to the OP as well. It's just slightly easier to do in an Assault 'cause of the firepower and needing to alpha strike a few times to get there whereas in a Light mech, it takes slightly more effort and map awareness.

Regarding the stat-padding argument, I'm referring to people who farm damage to boost MS. Like the Fafnir with 4x LGR or the famous Shadowcats. 'Cause of that, the whole environment has turned into letting others get shot and dying quickly in the end anyway instead of shooting at enemies as a team and trying to win.

[Prototelis]

^Like every time you submit your "expertise" to one of these threads.

[PhoenixFire55]

Dee Eight, on 25 December 2019 - 08:42 PM, said:

Thanks to the quoting I get to see the idiot I ignored arguing tactics with a better player and its quite amusing to see..

Instead of being amused, how about you learn smth from a discussion of two players who are infinitely better at this game than you are? ... But then again, its you, so just keep calm and go back to your regular griefing.

[PhoenixFire55]

FRAGTAST1C, on 25 December 2019 - 07:17 PM, said:

Regarding the stat-padding argument, I'm referring to people who farm damage to boost MS. Like the Fafnir with 4x LGR or the famous Shadowcats. 'Cause of that, the whole environment has turned into letting others get shot and dying quickly in the end anyway instead of shooting at enemies as a team and trying to win.

MS is mostly damage, and damage is well ... damage. We've had a discussion about armor sharing previously, and as I've been saying, it doesn't matter where you are, as long as you can shoot the enemy the entire time within your effective range. Needless to say SHC and Fafnir are two extremely different cases, and while SHC can in fact adapt to pretty much any disposition of mechs on the field Fafnir can not. A slow sniper assault is generally a bad idea, but it can be used perfectly fine too even in the nascar environment. But there aren't that many people who can pull it off. And if a guy simply does the "hiding" then he won't pad any of his stats to begin with. Still have to win in order to pad that MS.

[Prototelis]

The only stat worth "padding" is also the only stat you can't actually pad in SQ.

Edited by Prototelis, 25 December 2019 - 11:42 PM.

[PhoenixFire55]

Hazeclaw, on 25 December 2019 - 04:25 PM, said:

Well that's the problem, you shouldn't be by yourself.

Thats always been the problem. PGI catered to soloists, destroyed the units and killed any kind of teamplay. But its way to late to do anything about it. And as I've been saying, you either adapt to the reality of the typical solo-PUG or just keep dieing pointlessly.

Hazeclaw, on 25 December 2019 - 04:25 PM, said:

Seriously? I don't see this, just because people turn and run away from enemies engaging them from the left, I don't see how that makes them better players. But yes, in the end you do end up in a situation where if you don't nascar you die because most do.

It doesn't "make" them better players. Its simply adapting to the situation where you know perfectly well that if you stand your ground and hold the line you will die pointlessly because everyone else will indeed run away. Again, the environment is set, its soloist "me-me-me" mentality, you can't and won't change that. You adapt to it and make sure you maximize what you can do. Whoever adapts better is a better player. If you can think you can regularly pull off a tactic different from nascar in QP then by all means be my guest.

Hazeclaw, on 25 December 2019 - 04:25 PM, said:

Playing all classes is exactly the same in QP and FP

No. Not even anywhere near same.

Hazeclaw, on 25 December 2019 - 04:25 PM, said:

In FP people tend to engage the enemy more, and run away less

I can't say I agree either. You regularly see people with three fresh mechs left in the end when all of their teammates used up all four.

Hazeclaw, on 25 December 2019 - 04:25 PM, said:

Ugh, I just don't see how an environment where the mechs with the most firepower are chasing the pack and not shooting equates to maxing out its mobility, its DPS, its engagement range and its armor use.

I'm not sure why you bring this up again, since I've clearly covered it already. If they are "chasing" anything then its not nascar, its idiocy. If they aren't shooting, its not nascar, its once again idiocy.

Hazeclaw, on 25 December 2019 - 04:25 PM, said:

Just because you manage to get your fatnir to the front of the nascar doesn't make nascar a legit tactic, it just means all the faster mechs were worse at the dumbest tactic possible than you. If they were as convinced as you that the only way to play was to run right and turn left you'd be the dumba** in the back eaten by lights and mediums

And again, the example I've provided was clearly not an example of nascar. In proper nascar I wouldn't be able to be in front of all of my teammates in a Fafnir. Also, get off your high horse and don't assume things. I've played enough slow assaults on all kinds of QP teams and quite literally never "got left behind".

Hazeclaw, on 25 December 2019 - 04:25 PM, said:

For your examples I can give plenty of where my team has the enemy in a perfect trap, ready to obliterate them in a funnel, and as soon as the first enemy mech comes in, 3/4 of the team turns right and leaves. It pisses me off to no end when I see all the medium/heavy/assault mechs with 0% heat, running right as the enemy team is closing in on the left.

Doesn't it tell you smth? ... Like the fact that its pointless to apply fancy tactics when you know most of your team will run away from the enemy? If you remain stubborn and refuse to adapt, its your own fault it doesn't work really. You know perfectly well that there is going to be a certain amount of idiocy on your team. You have to acknowledge that and act accordingly, not try to fix stupid.

Hazeclaw, on 25 December 2019 - 04:25 PM, said:

Look, I don't argue that at this point nascaring is basically more or less the only way to win in QP, but lets not pretend it's the best way to win because it just isn't.

Nobody argues that it is. But this discussion is about QP, and it is a proper thing for QP as I've already pointed out. Simply a natural selection in a no-teamplay me-first mentality environment.

[ShiverMeRivets]

C E Dwyer, on 25 December 2019 - 03:36 PM, said:

stop voting for nascar maps is one idea..

Vote “conquest” mode and be nearly immune from nascar regardless of map (well except HPG and Mining, sometimes).
Get extra c-bills as a bonus.

[Dee Eight]

Actually you end up with the nascar in conquest also on more maps than just HPG and Mining. Worst is Grim Plexus because one side puts the charlie drop only about 1km from Sigma and there's almost always some assault driver who'd rather go capping instead of just asking for a fast light to go do it.

[Horseman]

Dee Eight, on 26 December 2019 - 07:03 PM, said:

Actually you end up with the nascar in conquest also on more maps than just HPG and Mining. Worst is Grim Plexus because one side puts the charlie drop only about 1km from Sigma and there's almost always some assault driver who'd rather go capping instead of just asking for a fast light to go do it.

Some 95-100 ton assault, you mean. Going 48 kph or less.

[Kusok Myasa]

If you're piloting some slow assault you can nascar but you need to be close to the center of rotation.
And you also need to shoot while moving.
Good luck

[Dee Eight]

Shoot AND move at the same time ? That's doing two things at once. Something its well known most men cannot do.

[adamanticx]

Daggett, on 21 December 2019 - 03:10 PM, said:

Yes, assaults are the hardest class to play, but if you know what you do they are still very strong.

Having said that, assaults are currently the class i'm most successful in, even the slower ones.
But to not get eaten alive in nascar you need a build that is able to consistently deal 1000+ dmg within 4min, the skill to actually reach that number regularly and last but not least the courage to cut corners at the right moment to keep up with your fast-movers:



If you go the same long route your fast-movers usually take, you are doomed. You have the armor to take some hits while cutting corners and the firepower to punish + supress most opposition when doing so at the right time.

This. So much this.

[VonBruinwald]

Prototelis, on 25 December 2019 - 11:42 PM, said:

The only stat worth "padding" is also the only stat you can't actually pad in SQ.

You can if you synch-drop