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This Game Has Become Unplayable, Especially For The Assault Class


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#61 PhoenixFire55

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Posted 24 December 2019 - 04:33 AM

View PostDaggett, on 24 December 2019 - 04:22 AM, said:

Good players like the B33F tried such sheneanigans regularly and even they get their good share of bad luck matches. Flanking in a Fafnir CAN work quite often if you are good, but i don't think that you can pull it off often enough to maintain the same W/L rate as with more conventional 'tactics'.

That is quite literally all I do in QP. You can check W/L if you are interested ... 1.77 career and 2.09 last month. 99% of that is solo QP, 80% of that is skilling up mechs. There is absolutely no "luck" in any of the QP matches. There are fkups and then there are none.

P.S. Also B33F good player ... LOL.

#62 Daggett

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Posted 24 December 2019 - 04:52 AM

View PostPhoenixFire55, on 24 December 2019 - 04:33 AM, said:

That is quite literally all I do in QP. You can check W/L if you are interested ... 1.77 career and 2.09 last month. 99% of that is solo QP, 80% of that is skilling up mechs. There is absolutely no "luck" in any of the QP matches. There are fkups and then there are none.

It's great that it works for you. But maybe you could have even better stats if you do less Fafnir flanking?
Maybe the only question is if that's worth giving up Fafnir shenanigans. Posted Image

View PostPhoenixFire55, on 24 December 2019 - 04:33 AM, said:

P.S. Also B33F good player ... LOL.

His current alt account has similar stats than yours. If he is not at least "good" then we are not either.

Edited by Daggett, 24 December 2019 - 05:07 AM.


#63 martian

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Posted 24 December 2019 - 04:54 AM

View PostPhoenixFire55, on 24 December 2019 - 03:55 AM, said:

Again, we are talking QP here?
...


Yes, we are talking QP here - I guess right from the very first post.

View PostPhoenixFire55, on 24 December 2019 - 03:55 AM, said:

If you get one-shotted in QP it means you are dumb. Period.

I do not know if you have noticed, but you are talking about the game where 50-60 points alphas are not unusual and bigger alphas possible. The Centurion has about 50 points of front CT armor (and much less on arms and side torsos) and some internal structure. Thus a typical big alpha will kill the Centurion outright easily or leaves it with a cherry red CT internals (that means that the Centurion is going to die in the next three seconds).

View PostPhoenixFire55, on 24 December 2019 - 03:55 AM, said:

Other thing to consider is that when a Centurion charges and dies, team loses the DPS of a Centurion. When a DireWolf dies, team loses the DPS of a Dire, which can be about 3-4 Centurions' depending on the loadout. Now, if a pushing Dire would live 3-4 times longer than a pushing Centurion, then it'd be even, but the thing is, it will not.
...
Because if you got an organized team they all push together, i.e. nobody "leads".
...
Ideally what you want to do, is to have 2-3 fast fresh mechs make a couple aggressive peeks at the enemy, taking the damage and making the enemy heat bars go up, but also making sure none of them are focused down. Then the biggest guns roll in and just keep going. Thus, even though the heavy mechs are now being focused, your enemies are already riding the heat bar limits and can't sustain the DPS. This will be felt immidiately and the dominos will fall.

But even that does not take into account anything really. For starters all depends on what kind of mech builds you have. Needless to say, the ability to spread/tank the damage while maintaining its maximal DPS at the same time is quite different between say Fafnir with 4UAC5s and the same Fafnir with 2HGs. Or a Jagermech with 4AC2s and the one with 2AC20s. And so is their respective sustained DPS which determines the value of the mech for an all-out yolo-push.

If you watch comp play you can notice that its done differently basically every time. Unless you got a Linebacker. When in doubt, always Linebacker and W.

This entire thread has been about QP, thus any talk about "comp play" or "organized teams" is pointless.

View PostPhoenixFire55, on 24 December 2019 - 03:55 AM, said:

As to who should "lead" the push, the answer is - nobody. For any kind of scenario. .... And if you got PUGs, then "leading" the push means running into an entire enemy team by yourself and dieing while your teammates proceed to hillhump from 500m behind you.

Magnificent.

So your answer to my question: "Who should start the push - medium or assault 'Mech - if it is really needed to liberate your base?" is "Nobody. Let the enemy team win on cap."

Thank you for your time. I think that now I understand your point completely.

Edited by martian, 24 December 2019 - 04:55 AM.


#64 Mr Andersson

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Posted 24 December 2019 - 05:54 AM

View PostDaggett, on 24 December 2019 - 04:22 AM, said:

Good players like the B33F...

B33F is a very good player, yes. No doubt about it. But he often plays meme mechs and tactics for (I assume) entertainment purposes. So if you are watching trying to learn something, I would look for other streamers.

Edit:
LurmGod, bear_cl4w, Magic_Pain_Glove, justcallmeASH, SlippnGriff, MW2Annihilator, EON_Lizzee and Jay_Z_ are a few I would recommend.

Edited by Mr Andersson, 24 December 2019 - 05:59 AM.


#65 Daggett

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Posted 24 December 2019 - 06:34 AM

View PostMr Andersson, on 24 December 2019 - 05:54 AM, said:

B33F is a very good player, yes. No doubt about it. But he often plays meme mechs and tactics for (I assume) entertainment purposes. So if you are watching trying to learn something, I would look for other streamers.

Edit:
LurmGod, bear_cl4w, Magic_Pain_Glove, justcallmeASH, SlippnGriff, MW2Annihilator, EON_Lizzee and Jay_Z_ are a few I would recommend.

Yes, he does wacky entertaining things and still manages to have quite decent stats. That's exactly why he is a good player.

Not sure when i recommended watching him to learn something though. Of cause then you better watch those exceptional players you mentioned, but that's not the topic.

Just wanted to point out in my post that even if a good player makes meme things like flanking assaults somehow work quite well, it's no indication that QP matches are slow enough to ignore the fact that many mechs should not take big nascar laps if they want to contribute, especially not when piloted by normal players.

Edited by Daggett, 24 December 2019 - 07:07 AM.


#66 PhoenixFire55

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Posted 24 December 2019 - 06:35 AM

View PostDaggett, on 24 December 2019 - 04:52 AM, said:

It's great that it works for you. But maybe you could have even better stats if you do less Fafnir flanking?
Maybe the only question is if that's worth giving up Fafnir shenanigans.

Or maybe said stats would be much worse if I did? On the contrary I need more proper Fafnir tactics to improve them further.

See ... two can play this game of empty statements based on nothing.

View PostDaggett, on 24 December 2019 - 04:52 AM, said:

His current alt account has similar stats than yours. If he is not at least "good" then we are not either.

Key words "current alt account". Some of us don't need to farm tier 5 to achieve said stats and thus don't need to make a new account every two months.

#67 Daggett

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Posted 24 December 2019 - 06:42 AM

View PostPhoenixFire55, on 24 December 2019 - 06:35 AM, said:

Or maybe said stats would be much worse if I did?

There is only one way to find out. Posted Image

View PostPhoenixFire55, on 24 December 2019 - 06:35 AM, said:

Key words "current alt account". Some of us don't need to farm tier 5 to achieve said stats and thus don't need to make a new account every two months.

Well the account i mean and which he uses in his twitch streams is active since July 2016 with over 7000 matches under his belt. So no Tier 5 farming and no new account every two months. Just a good player having decent stats despite doing out-of-the-box stuff which would never work for the average player.

Edit: I guess alt account was not the correct description from my side. Since his main account is retired, his alt became his new main account.

Edited by Daggett, 24 December 2019 - 06:46 AM.


#68 PhoenixFire55

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Posted 24 December 2019 - 06:58 AM

View Postmartian, on 24 December 2019 - 04:54 AM, said:

Yes, we are talking QP here - I guess right from the very first post.

I wasn't asking you anything.


View Postmartian, on 24 December 2019 - 04:54 AM, said:

I do not know if you have noticed, but you are talking about the game where 50-60 points alphas are not unusual and bigger alphas possible. The Centurion has about 50 points of front CT armor (and much less on arms and side torsos) and some internal structure. Thus a typical big alpha will kill the Centurion outright easily or leaves it with a cherry red CT internals (that means that the Centurion is going to die in the next three seconds).

Each Centurion can have up to 64 front CT armor. Plus 32 structure. Plus up to 16 CT structure via quirks. Plus up to 35% of structure on skill tree nodes. Plus up to 20% of armor on skill tree nodes. That results in 77 CT armor + 65 CT structure, i.e. 142 points of health in CT. But please, educate us more on getting one-shotted by typical big alpha.

View Postmartian, on 24 December 2019 - 04:54 AM, said:

This entire thread has been about QP, thus any talk about "comp play" or "organized teams" is pointless.

I like how you quote two dozen lines of text and dismiss it because of "comp play" while only two lines out of two dozen are about "comp play".

View Postmartian, on 24 December 2019 - 04:54 AM, said:

Magnificent.

So your answer to my question: "Who should start the push - medium or assault 'Mech - if it is really needed to liberate your base?" is "Nobody. Let the enemy team win on cap."

Thank you for your time. I think that now I understand your point completely.

And again, this time you edit the quote by removing two thirds of what I've said which completely changes the meaning.

Not going to bother discussing anything with you further. Keep doing it your way and stay irrelevant with your 1.0 W/L and KDR. I'm sure you'll come up with excuses about how its nascar or meta or syncdroppers or smth else that is the reason why you are bad.

#69 Horseman

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Posted 24 December 2019 - 06:59 AM

View Postmartian, on 24 December 2019 - 03:31 AM, said:

But to return to the original point: Would not be better if an assault 'Mech (let's say Daishi or Fafnir) with a lot of armor would lead the push? Instead of a thin-skinned medium 'Mech (like the Centurion or the Blackjack) that is going to be one-shotted by the enemy?

Actually neither. Multiple mechs should push at the same time, maximizing opfor's confusion and making it harder for them to prioritize targets.
Deleting one ******* Fafnir? If his buddies cower behind him instead of providing additional firepower, it's easy.
If you have a line of heaviest charging you and the Fafnir right behind, what are you going to target? Your team will first start firing on the heavies, then maybe on the bigger threat - but then the heavies will be free to kick your *** uncontested, and part of your team won't switch targets at all. In that scenario, more of the opfor survives than if they first pushed out the Fafnir and then followed it with heavies hiding behind the barely mobile walking gun.

View Postmartian, on 24 December 2019 - 04:54 AM, said:

I do not know if you have noticed, but you are talking about the game where 50-60 points alphas are not unusual and bigger alphas possible.
And very few of those are pin-point front-loaded damage. There's almost always some kind of spread (beam duration, spread radius, multiple projectiles) that prevents them from being one-button kills.

Quote

The Centurion has about 50 points of front CT armor (and much less on arms and side torsos) and some internal structure. Thus a typical big alpha will kill the Centurion outright easily or leaves it with a cherry red CT internals (that means that the Centurion is going to die in the next three seconds).
That Centurion pilot should learn to use cover and roll damage better. He's a fool for letting the opfor focus down on its' CT in the first place.

Quote

So your answer to my question: "Who should start the push - medium or assault 'Mech - if it is really needed to liberate your base?" is "Nobody. Let the enemy team win on cap."
The answer is "if there's no other strategy you can implement, then all of the above plus your heavies" and "your team already shot itself in the foot half the match ago"

Edited by Horseman, 24 December 2019 - 07:01 AM.


#70 PhoenixFire55

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Posted 24 December 2019 - 07:02 AM

View PostDaggett, on 24 December 2019 - 06:42 AM, said:

Well the account i mean and which he uses in his twitch streams is active since July 2016 with over 7000 matches under his belt. So no Tier 5 farming and no new account every two months. Just a good player having decent stats despite doing out-of-the-box stuff which would never work for the average player.

Edit: I guess alt account was not the correct description from my side. Since his main account is retired, his alt became his new main account.

Whatever really. If you want to believe that he is a good player, suit yourself. He isn't. And neither are we.

#71 Vxheous

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Posted 24 December 2019 - 07:16 AM

View Postmartian, on 24 December 2019 - 04:54 AM, said:

Yes, we are talking QP here - I guess right from the very first post.


I do not know if you have noticed, but you are talking about the game where 50-60 points alphas are not unusual and bigger alphas possible. The Centurion has about 50 points of front CT armor (and much less on arms and side torsos) and some internal structure. Thus a typical big alpha will kill the Centurion outright easily or leaves it with a cherry red CT internals (that means that the Centurion is going to die in the next three seconds).


This entire thread has been about QP, thus any talk about "comp play" or "organized teams" is pointless.


Magnificent.

So your answer to my question: "Who should start the push - medium or assault 'Mech - if it is really needed to liberate your base?" is "Nobody. Let the enemy team win on cap."

Thank you for your time. I think that now I understand your point completely.

View PostPhoenixFire55, on 24 December 2019 - 06:58 AM, said:

Each Centurion can have up to 64 front CT armor. Plus 32 structure. Plus up to 16 CT structure via quirks. Plus up to 35% of structure on skill tree nodes. Plus up to 20% of armor on skill tree nodes. That results in 77 CT armor + 65 CT structure, i.e. 142 points of health in CT. But please, educate us more on getting one-shotted by typical big alpha.


Yup, when he started talking about a Centurian, and 50 armour, my first thought was wtf. So I went and looked at my Yen Lo Wang:
Posted Image

The reason why assaults don't push first is because once an assault commits, it's in for the duration of the fight. There is low chance for an assault to disengage, and any assault that "pushes" will get immediately deleted by a firing line if opposition is actually competent and smart (lolz in today's nascar age). Heavies and fast (like 100+ kph) mediums make the best pushers because they can actually 1. close distance, and 2. Shoot and duck/rotate into cover/each other to prevent getting massacred by the firing line. There is more to mechwarrior than simply "sharing armour, starting with who has the most armour", there is also the concept of sharing aggro. The best trade is when you can hold the attention of the enemy, do damage, and take no damage of your own (as in shoot, have opponents looking towards your lane of fire, but unable to hit you due to terrain, etc.) This is usually best exemplified in comp play since it's most organized style of play (I'm not really talking about comp play here), but works in basically all forms of play (quick play, faction play depending on mode, group queue RIP) even in the age of nascar.

It's also been mentioned that "why push" when you don't have to, which is totally true. There was mention about needing to "push" to your home cap in assault if you're getting capped out, if you're in that situation, and you have to rely on an 50-65 kph assault to "get to the cap", you have bigger problems in your game.

Edited by Vxheous, 24 December 2019 - 07:22 AM.


#72 Daggett

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Posted 24 December 2019 - 07:34 AM

View PostPhoenixFire55, on 24 December 2019 - 07:02 AM, said:

Whatever really. If you want to believe that he is a good player, suit yourself. He isn't. And neither are we.

You seem to confuse "good" and "great".
Is B33f a great player? Probably not.
Are we? Hell no.

But good? It's hard to deny that any player with a significantly positive W/L ratio is not at least a somewhat good player. And luckily you, me and also the b33f are members of this club. Don't make yourself worse than you are. Posted Image

Edited by Daggett, 24 December 2019 - 07:56 AM.


#73 K O Z A K

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Posted 24 December 2019 - 07:35 AM

View PostVxheous, on 24 December 2019 - 07:16 AM, said:

Yup, when he started talking about a Centurian, and 50 armour, my first thought was wtf. So I went and looked at my Yen Lo Wang:


yeah but you're using the armor front loading hack, real mechwarriors don't dishonor themselves with such tricks

View PostVxheous, on 24 December 2019 - 07:16 AM, said:

It's also been mentioned that "why push" when you don't have to, which is totally true. There was mention about needing to "push" to your home cap in assault if you're getting capped out, if you're in that situation, and you have to rely on an 50-65 kph assault to "get to the cap", you have bigger problems in your game.


this is a big one, 90% of players have no idea what push means, don't know how or when to execute it, but have heard others say it and it sounds cool and aggressive and stuff so they just yell it into the microphone all drop. At least once every qp match you will hear players that can't even see where the enemy team is yelling "PUUUUUUUSH" like they're helping a woman through labor

as for the rest of this thread, lol, you can try to justify nascar all you want, but if you're telling me the goal is to close distance with the enemy, you wouldn't be taking the longest path possible to get there, unless you're a light. All the fighting heavies, mediums and assaults that leave people behind and run away right, turning left, don't pretend you're doing it for any reason other than to meatshield with teammates and because you're scared of facing the enemy. Unfortunately it's just all there is at this point in qp, and even if you realize how dumb nascar is in the vast majority of situations you're still forced to do it or die. It's what keeps me playing pretty much exclusively FP these days (apart from occasional drops with my drunken qp alt). At least in FP people tend to actually head to where the enemy is, not where they aren't

#74 PhoenixFire55

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Posted 24 December 2019 - 07:45 AM

View PostHazeclaw, on 24 December 2019 - 07:35 AM, said:

as for the rest of this thread, lol, you can try to justify nascar all you want, but if you're telling me the goal is to close distance with the enemy, you wouldn't be taking the longest path possible to get there, unless you're a light.

I'm pretty sure you understand the difference between "close the distance" and "close the distance without getting shot in the process".

#75 K O Z A K

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Posted 24 December 2019 - 07:54 AM

View PostPhoenixFire55, on 24 December 2019 - 07:45 AM, said:

I'm pretty sure you understand the difference between "close the distance" and "close the distance without getting shot in the process".


yes, I understand your chance of getting shot is lower (at first anyways) when the second you spot the enemy you run away putting your teammates between the enemy and you

#76 PhoenixFire55

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Posted 24 December 2019 - 08:09 AM

View PostHazeclaw, on 24 December 2019 - 07:54 AM, said:

yes, I understand your chance of getting shot is lower (at first anyways) when the second you spot the enemy you run away putting your teammates between the enemy and you

Oh, so I should put myself between enemies and friendlies and just stand there since I have no range to shoot anything? ... yeah, good advice ... lol ... Better yet go rush the enemy head on and tank for that deadweight lurm/AC2 assault 1km away?

Hard to expect any other pro tip from someone who never played a light in his life.

#77 K O Z A K

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Posted 24 December 2019 - 08:20 AM

View PostPhoenixFire55, on 24 December 2019 - 08:09 AM, said:

Oh, so I should put myself between enemies and friendlies and just stand there since I have no range to shoot anything? ... yeah, good advice ... lol ... Better yet go rush the enemy head on and tank for that deadweight lurm/AC2 assault 1km away?

Hard to expect any other pro tip from someone who never played a light in his life.


No, you should actively try to close range to where you're effective, or set an ambush where you expect the enemy to pass shortly at your effective range. Instead people turn right and run away from the enemy, increasing the time it will take them to get into position to shoot the enemy. You should always try to start shooting the enemy as soon as you can. But I know it's too late, the nascar mentality in qp is strong

I'm no pro, but I call things how I see them. In FP I get to play lights all the time, it's basically a mandatory requirement. You're right I haven't played lights in qp for a while since it's more difficult to carry the match with them. Not sure why you brought this up as if you could read you'd see I think lights are the only class that shouldn't take the most direct path to enemy

#78 Tarl Cabot

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Posted 24 December 2019 - 10:39 AM

Would threads about nascaring be so prevalent specific maps had a modified spawn order/location and/or the map was more stretched out? Aren't most threads started because the assaults spawning on one side are so out of position when they do spawn left end, while the other teams lights/fast mediums, being faster and coming from their left end, are able to harass said stragglers while being re-enforced by their own assaults, which had spawned on the far RIGHT end.

Caustic, followed by HPG are the worst offenders. Then we are talking about QP where the communication fades away the higher in tier one moves up into. After contact, that is something different.

Terra Firma has no real nascaring. In fact to move to the right for one side generally puts on into Death Valley. Most of the other maps spawn points are so far away that any nascaring or moving to the right is done around a central location.

#79 Prototelis

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Posted 24 December 2019 - 10:44 AM

pusha pusha pusha is why some of you are 50% and below.






You can change the maps all you want, nascar will still happen. I've even seen it on siege maps.

It's just big engine stomp meta, only bads can't move and shoot at the same time.

Edited by Prototelis, 24 December 2019 - 10:46 AM.


#80 Dee Eight

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Posted 24 December 2019 - 10:48 AM

View PostHorseman, on 24 December 2019 - 02:36 AM, said:

And sometimes not even to their MS. A few geniuses who wanted to cap Sigma on Grim Plexus in assault mechs come to mind, as does a certain 4xGauss KDK-3 pilot who always brings this one mech and always fails terribly at actually using it.


I'd rather have lyen back than some of the 100 ton back field hiders in their kodiaks and fafnirs who are waiting for the enemy to nascar around to shoot them. If the enemy doesn't do exactly that, then they're contributing nothing and robbing 100 tons of mech from the actual fight. At least lyen only ever wasted 35 tons doing it and had the speed to reposition to where the enemy actually was if they didn't do exactly what was needed for him to shoot them in the back.

Edited by Dee Eight, 24 December 2019 - 10:52 AM.






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