228 replies to this topic

[kapinga]

There is a lot to be said about assault mechs. And NASCAR. in my opinion the reason why nascar has become such a thing is this, to many assault mechs load up with lurms, and long range weaponry and then stand at the back . They are supposed to lead the charge, then there is a problem with that , not to many people want to go in with them because they might get shot. Also no one want to go that slow. It all boils down to good comunication and the willingness of the assaults to do there job, and everybody else to cover there butts.

[FRAGTAST1C]

kapinga, on 23 December 2019 - 04:47 PM, said:

There is a lot to be said about assault mechs. And NASCAR. in my opinion the reason why nascar has become such a thing is this, to many assault mechs load up with lurms, and long range weaponry and then stand at the back . They are supposed to lead the charge, then there is a problem with that , not to many people want to go in with them because they might get shot. Also no one want to go that slow. It all boils down to good comunication and the willingness of the assaults to do there job, and everybody else to cover there butts.

Personally speaking, if everyone in the team starts shooting at enemies, NASCAR wouldn't be much of a problem 'cause it gives everyone in your team some respite from incoming fire. The enemies won't shoot back when they're getting shot. But what really happens is that majority of the team wants to "flank" and during that time, they don't shoot at enemies and as a result, the slower moving mechs get shot and killed first. And this has caused a cascading effect where some players bring assault mechs and start to hide even during a firefight 'cause there is no team-work.

[UnofficialOperator]

Haven't played for some time but things never change do they?

Every few months you'd see a woe is me, me assault is bad now thread.

Seriously OP, just learn from your betters or just switch out to a faster mech ffs.

Obviously assault is not for you.

Edited by UnofficialOperator, 23 December 2019 - 07:10 PM.

[Vxheous]

kapinga, on 23 December 2019 - 04:47 PM, said:

There is a lot to be said about assault mechs. And NASCAR. in my opinion the reason why nascar has become such a thing is this, to many assault mechs load up with lurms, and long range weaponry and then stand at the back . They are supposed to lead the charge, then there is a problem with that , not to many people want to go in with them because they might get shot. Also no one want to go that slow. It all boils down to good comunication and the willingness of the assaults to do there job, and everybody else to cover there butts.

Common misconception, but Assaults (apart from an Atlas) aren't meant to lead the charge. They are meant to provide overwhelming firepower (kind of like the guy that mans the squad automatic weapon in real life, you don't want him to breach first).

Edited by Vxheous, 23 December 2019 - 08:58 PM.

[martian]

Vxheous, on 23 December 2019 - 08:58 PM, said:

Common misconception, but Assaults (apart from an Atlas) aren't meant to lead the charge. They are meant to provide overwhelming firepower (kind of like the guy that mans the squad automatic weapon in real life, you don't want him to breach first).

We are not in real life. In real life a guy with M240 has exactly the same number of hitpoints as any rifleman with M16. They have exactly the same body armor.

We are in MWO. Assault 'Mech has the protection of 614 points of armor, while a typical medium 'Mech about 300 points. This is the difference.

Who is supposed to lead the charge? Me in my Centurion? My friend in his Blackjack? That guy in the Champion?

Do not you think that the guy in the back, who is sitting in King Crab or Daishi, could lead the charge? Why do those assaults have so much armor, if not to survive intense enemy fire, attract the enemy attention in those critical first few seconds, so the rest of the team can follow and overwhelm the enemy? Surely they do not need more than 600 points of armor if their role is to stand behind the team and farm damage?

[PhoenixFire55]

FRAGTAST1C, on 23 December 2019 - 06:57 PM, said:

Personally speaking, if everyone in the team starts shooting at enemies, NASCAR wouldn't be much of a problem 'cause it gives everyone in your team some respite from incoming fire. The enemies won't shoot back when they're getting shot. But what really happens is that majority of the team wants to "flank" and during that time, they don't shoot at enemies and as a result, the slower moving mechs get shot and killed first. And this has caused a cascading effect where some players bring assault mechs and start to hide even during a firefight 'cause there is no team-work.

Except you got it all backwards. Its the "flankers" who actually go somewhere exactly for the purpose of shooting smth. Because unlike assaults, lighter mechs don't have 600+ armor and 500-700m+ weapon range to do a mexican standoff. And 9 times out of 10, its the backrow deadweight assaults that "get left behind" because they are trying to catch up with their supposed babysitters instead of pointing their guns towards the enemy and shooting. But then again, 9 out of 10 assaults fail to move and shoot at the same time, let alone being able to take damage and dish it out at the same time. Being able to hit one flanking Locust with four 100t assaults? Please, its clearly impossible for them. So yeah, they become very sad when their meatshields decide to "run away". I've lost count how many times I've heard "waa waa nascar waa waa" while actually leading said nascar in smth like a Fafnir or KingCrab. Thus I have zero tolerance towards deadweight nascar crybabies as well as towards people trying to advocate hiding in assaults. If you "get left behind" on a regular basis, take less weapons and more engine. Or a faster mech. Or gitgud. Options are truly limitless.

[Imperial Porter]

martian, on 23 December 2019 - 10:28 PM, said:

Who is supposed to lead the charge? Me in my Centurion?

Here is another common misconception.

Why do you feel the need to charge?

[martian]

Imperial Porter, on 24 December 2019 - 01:37 AM, said:

Here is another common misconception.

Why do you feel the need to charge?

Because some enemy 'Mech is capping our base and the time is running out, for example? You must remove him from the cap and in some situations it means pushing right through the enemy defensive screen, while the rest of the enemy team is determined not to allow that.

Edited by martian, 24 December 2019 - 01:47 AM.

[Daggett]

PhoenixFire55, on 23 December 2019 - 11:56 PM, said:

Except you got it all backwards. Its the "flankers" who actually go somewhere exactly for the purpose of shooting smth. Because unlike assaults, lighter mechs don't have 600+ armor and 500-700m+ weapon range to do a mexican standoff.

Almost, the problem is that many players think they are flankers, when in fact they are not.

Light mechs and very fast 120+kph mediums? Sure, always try to get behind the enemy and harass them. That's what they can do best. You have the speed to take the long routes to remain undetected.

Everything else running less than 120kph however is usually NOT fast enough to take the long nascar route and arrive where they are needed in time. But instead of realizing that players are wasting time in those mechs they still try to "flank" instead of creating a ball of death together with their assaults.

So it's those wannabe flankers who are putting their team at a disadvantage by spending too much time with running in circles instead of shooting stuff.

Edited by Daggett, 24 December 2019 - 02:23 AM.

[FRAGTAST1C]

PhoenixFire55, on 23 December 2019 - 11:56 PM, said:

Except you got it all backwards. Its the "flankers" who actually go somewhere exactly for the purpose of shooting smth. Because unlike assaults, lighter mechs don't have 600+ armor and 500-700m+ weapon range to do a mexican standoff. And 9 times out of 10, its the backrow deadweight assaults that "get left behind" because they are trying to catch up with their supposed babysitters instead of pointing their guns towards the enemy and shooting. But then again, 9 out of 10 assaults fail to move and shoot at the same time, let alone being able to take damage and dish it out at the same time. Being able to hit one flanking Locust with four 100t assaults? Please, its clearly impossible for them. So yeah, they become very sad when their meatshields decide to "run away". I've lost count how many times I've heard "waa waa nascar waa waa" while actually leading said nascar in smth like a Fafnir or KingCrab. Thus I have zero tolerance towards deadweight nascar crybabies as well as towards people trying to advocate hiding in assaults. If you "get left behind" on a regular basis, take less weapons and more engine. Or a faster mech. Or gitgud. Options are truly limitless.

All good. But what happens when a HGR Fafnir goes all the way to the outskirts in Grim Plexus and never takes part in a fight at his optimal range? What happens when an Anni decides to chainfire from the outer wall in HPG regardless of game mode? Or that 4x LGR Fafnir?There are moments to do both i.e., sit back and keep firing at enemies and/or brawl. There are very specific people who do the exact opposite every game and never contribute to anything besides bloat their MS. Whenever I bring my Direwolf, I do try to be with the team regardless of the map and take shortcuts in a NASCAR. But I don't sit in Zimbabwe and farm MS.

As for flankers, the assaults wouldn't be flanking in HPG or Mining. They'd set up an overwatch. Instead, what happens is the assaults block the ramps and then run to the low ground and let others get blown up. This is followed by mediums who barely shoot enemies and simply run along the low ground.

Instead, if like you said, you take up an overwatch position and start unloading on enemies, even flankers who barely shoot their weapons, would get to put up a fight while the others who take up positions in the frontline can actually do what they'd want to do 'cause they get the much needed support.

[PhoenixFire55]

Daggett, on 24 December 2019 - 02:21 AM, said:

Almost, the problem is that many players think they are flankers, when in fact they are not.

Light mechs and very fast 120+kph mediums? Sure, always try to get behind the enemy and harass them. That's what they can do best. You have the speed to take the long routes to remain undetected.

Everything else running less than 120kph however is usually NOT fast enough to take the long nascar route and arrive where they are needed in time. But instead of realizing that players are wasting time in those mechs they still try to "flank" instead of creating a ball of death together with their assaults.

So it's those wannabe flankers who are putting their team at a disadvantage by spending too much time with running in circles instead of shooting stuff.

I know what you are saying, but it just doesn't apply to QP. QP is so slow overall that you can flank in a Fafnir like I regularly do, finding myself literally 50m behind enemy lurm-assaults and shooting them in the back for free.

The argument about whether its "wannabe-flankers" or "wannabe-turrets" is pointless and wrong to begin with. I'll put it simple ... it doesn't matter what mech you are in, it doesn't matter where you go, as long as you shoot the enemy all the time within your mech optimal range. The point of nascar is to get into range and shoot or get a better angle and shoot. Obviously if you just run around and don't shoot you aren't doing anything useful. But it goes for all mechs. Slow assaults just running away desperately trying to save their butts is no better than lights, mediums or heavies doing long flanks not shooting anything either.

[Horseman]

martian, on 24 December 2019 - 01:47 AM, said:

Because some enemy 'Mech is capping our base and the time is running out, for example? You must remove him from the cap and in some situations it means pushing right through the enemy defensive screen, while the rest of the enemy team is determined not to allow that.

No. If you're pushing into a situation where you don't have an advantage, you're doing it wrong and just feeding the opfor free kills.
You only need to hit the enemy capper with a weapon - or a strike - to pause the cap. It's a job for a light mech / fast medium to get around the enemy position and both counter the cap and create a distraction the rest of your team can exploit and devastate the enemy team before they can get their attention back to you.

[PhoenixFire55]

martian, on 24 December 2019 - 01:47 AM, said:

Because some enemy 'Mech is capping our base and the time is running out, for example? You must remove him from the cap and in some situations it means pushing right through the enemy defensive screen, while the rest of the enemy team is determined not to allow that.

Eh ... no? ... Because if you damage the guy standing on the cap it stops the capping. All you need is to brush him with 0.1 dmg with an ERLL from 1.5km away and it'll stop the cap for 5 seconds ...

[Horseman]

FRAGTAST1C, on 24 December 2019 - 02:29 AM, said:

There are very specific people who do the exact opposite every game and never contribute to anything besides bloat their MS.

And sometimes not even to their MS. A few geniuses who wanted to cap Sigma on Grim Plexus in assault mechs come to mind, as does a certain 4xGauss KDK-3 pilot who always brings this one mech and always fails terribly at actually using it.

[PhoenixFire55]

FRAGTAST1C, on 24 December 2019 - 02:29 AM, said:

All good. But what happens when a HGR Fafnir goes all the way to the outskirts in Grim Plexus and never takes part in a fight at his optimal range? What happens when an Anni decides to chainfire from the outer wall in HPG regardless of game mode? Or that 4x LGR Fafnir?

What does this have to do with what we are discussing? ... Idiots willing to be idiots is hardly a reason to justify anything.

FRAGTAST1C, on 24 December 2019 - 02:29 AM, said:

There are moments to do both i.e., sit back and keep firing at enemies and/or brawl.

In ideal world, yes, sure. But this is QP, i.e. regardless of what you bring, you don't know what others bring. And given that, I can only tell, that ERLLs work perfectly well at 200m range. While SRMs do not work at 800m range at all. Thus making a stationary firing line with an entire team in QP is nearly always a much worse idea than mashing W and brawling with ERLLs.

FRAGTAST1C, on 24 December 2019 - 02:29 AM, said:

other stuff

Look, I'm not going to debate tactics for QP coz its pointless. Any tactic requires brain, smth that an average QP player doesn't have. It is up to you to adapt to the level of stupidity of your team and make sure YOU perform well. If smb chooses to cry about how everyone is stupid when he is the only one left behind somewhere? ... well, who's the stupid one?

[martian]

Horseman, on 24 December 2019 - 02:32 AM, said:

You only need to hit the enemy capper with a weapon - or a strike - to pause the cap. It's a job for a light mech / fast medium to get around the enemy position and both counter the cap and create a distraction the rest of your team can exploit and devastate the enemy team before they can get their attention back to you.

That works in theory. The reality is often different:

• Unfortunately in QP light 'Mechs often hide behind heavier 'Mechs, just following them. Flanking? Forget it ...
  
• Or those lights are dead already in this stage of game.
  
• Or those slow lights are not faster than other medium or heavy 'Mechs - Cougar for example.
  
• Or the flanking would take too long because of the terrain that the enemy would complete the cap before our 'Mech could get there.

Horseman, on 24 December 2019 - 02:32 AM, said:

You only need to hit the enemy capper with a weapon - or a strike - to pause the cap.

PhoenixFire55, on 24 December 2019 - 02:33 AM, said:

Eh ... no? ... Because if you damage the guy standing on the cap it stops the capping. All you need is to brush him with 0.1 dmg with an ERLL from 1.5km away and it'll stop the cap for 5 seconds ...

I know that. What you are describing sometimes works.

But I have been in many games when it was not even possible to see the base from the place where the fight was taking place. It was only push and remove cap or it is going to be game over in a minute.

[PhoenixFire55]

martian, on 24 December 2019 - 02:58 AM, said:

But I have been in many games when it was not even possible to see the base from the place where the fight was taking place. It was only push and remove cap or it is going to be game over in a minute.

Fair enough. If you want an answer to your initial question then I'd say freshest mech, regardless of what it is. If thats your Centurion, then its your Centurion. If its a Flea, then its a Flea.

(given we are talking PUGs a Flea can be a best choice at all times, since hardly anyone can hit it, just have to be a non-ECM Flea since otherwise nobody will see it in the first place even if it stands 50m in front of them)

[martian]

PhoenixFire55, on 24 December 2019 - 03:16 AM, said:

Fair enough. If you want an answer to your initial question then I'd say freshest mech, regardless of what it is. If thats your Centurion, then its your Centurion. If its a Flea, then its a Flea.

But to return to the original point: Would not be better if an assault 'Mech (let's say Daishi or Fafnir) with a lot of armor would lead the push? Instead of a thin-skinned medium 'Mech (like the Centurion or the Blackjack) that is going to be one-shotted by the enemy?

EDIT:
That was the question above.

Edited by martian, 24 December 2019 - 03:33 AM.

[PhoenixFire55]

martian, on 24 December 2019 - 03:31 AM, said:

But to return to the original point: Would not be better if an assault 'Mech (let's say Daishi or Fafnir) with a lot of armor would lead the push? Instead of a thin-skinned medium 'Mech (like the Centurion or the Blackjack) that is going to be one-shotted by the enemy?

Again, we are talking QP here? ... If you get one-shotted in QP it means you are dumb. Period. Centurion isn't as good as it used to be, but it still lives forever in proper hands. As for the DireWolf, its so ret@rdely slow and huge that even PUGs can hit it one out of two shots.

Other thing to consider is that when a Centurion charges and dies, team loses the DPS of a Centurion. When a DireWolf dies, team loses the DPS of a Dire, which can be about 3-4 Centurions' depending on the loadout. Now, if a pushing Dire would live 3-4 times longer than a pushing Centurion, then it'd be even, but the thing is, it will not.

As to who should "lead" the push, the answer is - nobody. For any kind of scenario. Because if you got an organized team they all push together, i.e. nobody "leads". And if you got PUGs, then "leading" the push means running into an entire enemy team by yourself and dieing while your teammates proceed to hillhump from 500m behind you.

Ideally what you want to do, is to have 2-3 fast fresh mechs make a couple aggressive peeks at the enemy, taking the damage and making the enemy heat bars go up, but also making sure none of them are focused down. Then the biggest guns roll in and just keep going. Thus, even though the heavy mechs are now being focused, your enemies are already riding the heat bar limits and can't sustain the DPS. This will be felt immidiately and the dominos will fall.

But even that does not take into account anything really. For starters all depends on what kind of mech builds you have. Needless to say, the ability to spread/tank the damage while maintaining its maximal DPS at the same time is quite different between say Fafnir with 4UAC5s and the same Fafnir with 2HGs. Or a Jagermech with 4AC2s and the one with 2AC20s. And so is their respective sustained DPS which determines the value of the mech for an all-out yolo-push.

If you watch comp play you can notice that its done differently basically every time. Unless you got a Linebacker. When in doubt, always Linebacker and W.

[Daggett]

PhoenixFire55, on 24 December 2019 - 02:32 AM, said:

I know what you are saying, but it just doesn't apply to QP. QP is so slow overall that you can flank in a Fafnir like I regularly do, finding myself literally 50m behind enemy lurm-assaults and shooting them in the back for free.

As far as i can tell QP is quite fast, some matches don't even reach the 4min mark. So if you flank in a Fafnir you either:

• Play on a map with small nascar circles but are still somewhat depending on slow enemy (lurm) assaults (luckily that happens all the time).
  
• Use shortcuts like basement or top in HPG (so you don't follow the nascar, which is good but not what i am talking about.

Good players like the B33F tried such shenanigans regularly and even they get their good share of bad luck matches. Flanking in a Fafnir CAN work quite often if you are good, but i don't think that you can pull it off often enough to maintain the same W/L rate as with more conventional 'tactics'.

You do it more for the fun than for highest probability of winning. Which is okay but hardly an argument that QP is slow and that there is no problem with other players running way too wide circles for their mech's speed and armament.

PhoenixFire55, on 24 December 2019 - 02:32 AM, said:

The argument about whether its "wannabe-flankers" or "wannabe-turrets" is pointless and wrong to begin with. I'll put it simple ... it doesn't matter what mech you are in, it doesn't matter where you go, as long as you shoot the enemy all the time within your mech optimal range. The point of nascar is to get into range and shoot or get a better angle and shoot. Obviously if you just run around and don't shoot you aren't doing anything useful. But it goes for all mechs. Slow assaults just running away desperately trying to save their butts is no better than lights, mediums or heavies doing long flanks not shooting anything either.

Which is basically what i'm saying. Know your mechs speed and chose a route where you can get into good firing positions and relocate as quickly as possible. Maximize your time shooting stuff. For fast mechs this can mean the long nascar route, for slower mechs this usually means to utilize shortcuts more often.

The reason why nascar can happen is that big central piece of cover which both protects you and the enemy. So it does matter where you go because if you nascar hard in a relatively slow mech you will probably have much less firing windows (even with mid/long range weapons) until you finally stop nascaring and use more direct routes.

In QP too many players waste too much time moving but not shooting, trying to get behind the enemy team in mechs not suited for that. Why should i not call them wannabe-flankers? I see this happen all the time, so i don't think it's a pointless argument.

I guess we are basically on the same page here, let's try to not argue about how we call things.

Edited by Daggett, 24 December 2019 - 04:58 AM.