463 replies to this topic

[Prototelis]

Nascar is specifically the result of two teams attempting to rotate into the back of one another.
Even in your example, which is wrong, the game cannot be played with less than 2 teams.

It takes two teams to Nascar, One team wins, Nascar wins every time.

(21 laps)

Edited by Prototelis, 09 February 2020 - 05:23 PM.

[FupDup]

In order for one team to win, you need the other team to lose. So in reality Nascar both wins every time and loses every time. Schrodinger's Nascar.

[OmniFail]

FupDup, on 09 February 2020 - 05:50 PM, said:

In order for one team to win, you need the other team to lose. So in reality Nascar both wins every time and loses every time. Schrodinger's Nascar.

Yeah,

You really can't make a determination until you have NASCARED.

[General Solo]

No one Nascars better than this thread
Lap 21

[Void Angel]

Hazeclaw, on 09 February 2020 - 08:45 AM, said:

You've never actually dealt with my reasoning. The only semi cohesive point you had is that nascar happens because most mechs are right sided and people are right sided so duh it means to get new firing lines you need to rotate right. Which would be fine and dandy except most mechs used today are not right sided but rather have evenly distributed loadouts, with some exceptions that are left sided, and some that are right sided. The argument also falls flat on its face when groups of players drop together and look out for each other and are not selfish in that they are ready to sacrifice their teammates as speed bumps, nascar doesn't usually occur: see FP, comp. Otherwise your posts are still just insults thrown at me, calling me a liar, because you don't like how I described the mentality behind nascar, meanwhile actually agreeing with my premise that it's a tactic.

Prototrollis has at this point completely backed himself into a corner with the whole that even when the whole team nascars on one side and only 1 light on the opposing team nascars, he considers that nascar (the result of the drop, that has somehow succeeded at something) and all the other mechs that didn't rotate (who make up the vast majority of their team) are just taters, ok, w/e dude, it's obvious you will stand your ground to the end no matter how wrong you are.

Even your confused attempt - full of begged questions and ex cathedra pronouncements - to shut me down with argument demonstrates your inadequacy with your subject. My favorite was when you tried to claim that Faction Play wasn't subject to nascar because "groups of players drop together and look out for each other." It can't have anything to do that there's an overpoweringly important objective the precludes nascaring... Oh no, it's altruism! People only nascar because they're greedy and mean!

There are other fatal flaws in your fulminating argument, but the fact is that those who flaunt the rules of thought will excoriate their enemies for their own errors when challenged. Liars accuse you of telling lies, the corrupt decry your corrupt behavior, etc. You accuse me of "not dealing with" your reasoning when I objected to your hand-waving away objections, and tried to make me responsible for your (totally fair, I'm sure!) characterizations of an entirely different poster's position! And you wrap it up with a two-questions fallacy accusing me of your own unalterable intransigence. Amateur-hour sophistry is only going dig you a deeper into a doomed attempt look less foolish.

Edited by Void Angel, 10 February 2020 - 01:51 AM.

[Prototelis]

lol

You do know QP maps are in FP and you typically don't see dual rotations, right?

[Horseman]

Prototelis, on 10 February 2020 - 02:48 AM, said:

You do know QP maps are in FP and you typically don't see dual rotations, right?

That's a good point.
Something also worth noting is that in FP you also tend to see even PUGs dropping heaviest-first, so the overall mobility of the team is substantially closer to one another compared to the wide spread seen in QP.

[Prototelis]

New players will often try to employ rotations or NSR; the real truth is that even some of the puggiest faction pugs are going to beat the breaks off of you for trying.

[K O Z A K]

Prototelis, on 09 February 2020 - 05:23 PM, said:

Even in your example, which is wrong, the game cannot be played with less than 2 teams.

The game cannot be player with more than 2 teams either, and it still doesn't matter.

Void Angel, on 10 February 2020 - 01:51 AM, said:

angry stuff

There is HPG domination in FP ffs, one of the nascariest setups in this game, and people don't nascar, must be magic. People only nascar because they're selfish and cowards. It's ok dude, don't be ashamed of what you are. When I drop QP and nascar I'm also being a selfish *****. It's unfortunate that we're at the stage where you have no choice but to play like that in this game mode.

Then just more meaningless insults at me wrapped up in some fancy wording, you must feel so superior. I've said nothing that wasn't a direct response to you. Don't be a hater bud.

Nascar is when a team rotates counter clockwise with no regard for their own or the enemy teams position. It takes 1 team to nascar. Nascar fails most of the time.

[Void Angel]

The more you realize you're losing, the more you resort to abuse, while haughtily hand-waving my post away as "angry stuff," - as if I were the one engaging in incendiary invective. The more you're pressed with arguments and objection,s the more angry and objectionable your posts become. Your angry accusations lend convenient confirmation to my previous prediction - that bad thinkers accuse you of what they themselves do.

Cut-and-pasting your defunct definition is a signal of surrender - you know that you have no response to my remonstrations, and so you just stamp your foot and hope I go away.

[Void Angel]

Prototelis, on 10 February 2020 - 02:48 AM, said:

lol

You do know QP maps are in FP and you typically don't see dual rotations, right?

Actually, I haven't played much faction play since my semi-return from inactivity, I'd honestly forgotten that they'd done that. However, I do desire to point out a couple of facts:

First, I'm not in here trying to claim that co-rotational cookie cutter tactics are the bees knees, and certainly not that they're the only way to go. I'm just objecting to Hazeclaw's silly strawman definition - the whole "you think nascar is well-thought high tactics" is a lie he made up because he doesn't like having to stick to honest arguments.

Second, the fact that players know there's another wave that can spawn and catch them if they're spread out could be an adequate explanation for why you don't see nascar as much in those FP matches, could it not?

PS: Isn't there still Elo in FP, or did that get taken out?

The idea that FP pugs "look out for each other" is a rose-colored falsehood of the highest order, last time I played.

Edited by Void Angel, 10 February 2020 - 08:20 AM.

[K O Z A K]

Void Angel, on 10 February 2020 - 08:11 AM, said:

The more you realize you're losing, the more you resort to abuse, while haughtily hand-waving my post away as "angry stuff," - as if I were the one engaging in incendiary invective. The more you're pressed with arguments and objection,s the more angry and objectionable your posts become. Your angry accusations lend convenient confirmation to my previous prediction - that bad thinkers accuse you of what they themselves do.

Have you looked in the mirror lately? It's going to be ok bud

[K O Z A K]

Void Angel, on 10 February 2020 - 08:21 AM, said:

...

Second, the fact that players know there's another wave that can spawn and catch them if they're spread out could be an adequate explanation for why you don't see nascar as much in those FP matches, could it not?

PS: Isn't there still Elo in FP, or did that get taken out?

The idea that FP pugs "look out for each other" is a rose-colored falsehood of the highest order, last time I played.

Hey look, an actual cohesive point...

It's true you can claim the respawns lessen the nascar in FP. I used to think that too. But if you actually analyze the situation that's not what's happening. In QP Nascar even when a mech stays behind really wide to get back shots at the nascaring enemy team, the nascaring team doesn't stop, either some mechs split off to kill it, or it's ignored completely, the rotation continues. Elo in FP basically does nothing. You're absolutely right, all by itself the idea that pugs in FP would look out for each other is hilarious. However FP is a team environment, infested with small groups of team minded players and even larger groups all of whom despite their many differences in tactics and skill levels consider teamwork to be paramount and most of them understand armor pooling. Pugs who act against those concepts and do things like try to nascar die quickly and are constantly sh*t on by everyone on comms and in game chat. Even the puggiest QP pug eventually starts looking down at the minimap once in a while and tries to work with the team. There are certainly specific instances of very special individuals who continue to display QP behavior in FP after many drops, but they are few.

[Xiphias]

Hazeclaw, on 10 February 2020 - 08:55 AM, said:

It's true you can claim the respawns lessen the nascar in FP. I used to think that too. But if you actually analyze the situation that's not what's happening. In QP Nascar even when a mech stays behind really wide to get back shots at the nascaring enemy team, the nascaring team doesn't stop, either some mechs split off to kill it, or it's ignored completely, the rotation continues.

Elo in FP basically does nothing. You're absolutely right, all by itself the idea that pugs in FP would look out for each other is hilarious. However FP is a team environment, infested with small groups of team minded players and even larger groups all of whom despite their many differences in tactics and skill levels consider teamwork to be paramount and most of them understand armor pooling. Pugs who act against those concepts and do things like try to nascar die quickly and are constantly sh*t on by everyone on comms and in game chat. Even the puggiest QP pug eventually starts looking down at the minimap once in a while and tries to work with the team. There are certainly specific instances of very special individuals who continue to display QP behavior in FP after many drops, but they are few.

I think you're reading too much into the behavior in FP and QP.

In QP you don't have to worry about mechs spawning behind you, if someone does stay behind they are usually pretty easy to kill and in small numbers. Without respawns, every mech that is killed drops the amount of firepower the enemy team has. The main point being that it's not something most people worry about.

All this goes out the window in FP. Respawns mean that not only is it possible that players will get behind you, it is almost guaranteed to happen. It may happen in larger numbers (multiple players respawning at the same time) and it will happen continuously. Player's don't like getting shot in the back, so they avoid nascar to avoid getting shot in the back.

It's less about it being a team environment and more about the large increase in negative effects that comes from nascar. Pug groups in FP can still exhibit poor team behavior, but rotating and getting flanked by respawns gives consistent and immediate feedback. People tend to gravitate towards what they see getting immediate results, much less the big picture. Nascar in QP gets quick kills/damage and that reinforces the behavior, nascar in FP results in getting shot in the back and that negatively reinforces the behavior.

At the end of the day we may just be saying the same thing different ways. The way the mode plays encourages a "team environment" to be successful, player's gravitate towards what they think gives them the most success. Players in FP tend to be more cohesive because the mode punishes individual behavior more. The respawn mechanic encourages grouping and punishes solo behavior.

[Tarl Cabot]

There is flanking.. say 25% of the team goes while the rest of the team barely moves, ie becomes entrenched, hopefully setting up a firing line (we are talking about QP here though...) The test though is whether or not that teams also starts to "nascar" instead of committing to a tactical retreat, leapfrogging, covering each other til they pass, etc.. I know, I know,, it is QP

And is it really nascaring if the majority of only one team moves counter clock-wise, ie to get into position while the other team becomes entrenched?

Which map is the worse setup and heavily encourages nascar, especially at the beginning of the game? When playing and you drop on the side where Charlie Lance (Assaults) spawns on the far right, who here does not attempt to take advantage of picking off a few slow assaults while you are being backed up by a majority of the team?

Caustic due to the spread out spawn points and one side having their Charlie Lance/Assaults on the far left. The 2nd map would be HPG, either at the beginning or so thereafter due to similar reasons.

Then there is nascaring in, not at the beginning of the map but further into the match, with one side actually aggressively pushing while the other side is basically fleeing while trying to keep said landmark between themselves and that push.

[Prototelis]

There is more than enough time for a dual rotation to take place, and one team to get wave-wiped, without spawns from behind you being an issue.

And yet, it still isn't the norm.

[K O Z A K]

Prototelis, on 10 February 2020 - 06:04 PM, said:

There is more than enough time for a dual rotation to take place, and one team to get wave-wiped, without spawns from behind you being an issue.

And yet, it still isn't the norm.

100%, it still happens sometimes, but extremely rarely. Even on small maps it takes respawns enough time to get lines on the fight for one team to get completely wiped.

[General Solo]

Hazeclaw, on 10 February 2020 - 07:58 AM, said:

........ It's unfortunate that we're at the stage where you have no choice but to play like that in this game mode........

If their is no choice, how is it selfish?
Selfish implies their was a choice and one picked the selfish choice.
No dieing to nascar is not a choice IMO. Only choice is to win.

[Prototelis]

It's because everyone who plays FP, more or less, understands the value of health pooling. So you don't see many rotations because rotations will typically present less players than the amount of players in any one or more power positions.

The people who want to NSR, rotate, flank alone in their assaults all get severely punished. They either stop playing or start paying attention.

When it comes down to it; rotations are usually ******* stupid and nascar prevalence is THE DIRECT RESULT of bad players admonishing the fine art best practice of trading, pusha pusha pusha idiots that want the entire team to yolo into a situation with no clear advantage, continual developer nerfs aimed at mid range high alpha trade and pinpoint, and skilled players leaving the game because of it.

DPS, altho fun, is well suited towards rotation meta.

Edited by Prototelis, 10 February 2020 - 07:36 PM.

[K O Z A K]

OZHomerOZ, on 10 February 2020 - 06:59 PM, said:

If their is no choice, how is it selfish?
Selfish implies their was a choice and one picked the selfish choice.
No dieing to nascar is not a choice IMO. Only choice is to win.

Poorly worded, sorry. You have almost no choice if you want to survive the first 3 minutes of the QP drop, it's basically instead of fighting the bear together people go "I don't have to outrun that bear, I just have to outrun you". You always have a choice