107 replies to this topic

[martian]

I wonder what people will do after the addition of XXL engines in MWO.

[Brauer]

martian, on 17 February 2020 - 04:06 AM, said:

I wonder what people will do after the addition of XXL engines in MWO.

Doesn't seem like anything is being added to the game at this point sadly.

[InspectorG]

Axys Rageborn, on 07 February 2020 - 07:13 AM, said:

Just wanna know peoples thoughts on allowing IS Mechs to "not" insta die from the destruction of an XL side torso by having a case installed in that torso.

In short: No

IS Lights wouldnt have the tonnage/space for it anyway.

Assaults with enough hardpoints would likely be OP.

The reason you XL in a IS mech is you know you can leverage skill vs hitpoints, aka, not getting hit.
And with HP quirks and lack of aim skill these days, there is little reason to buff the XL.

Plus, thats the whole reason for LFE engines, if you can stand the stupid heat/speed mechanic.

[Prototelis]

Speed loss mechanic neat, loss of dissipation cool, ST destruction heat spike is garbage.

XL and LFE needed an associate penalty for use/ST destruction, and what we had previously was perfectly fine.

You were going to die very shortly after ST destruction anyways, now you do it shut down or instantly suicide.

[VonBruinwald]

Prototelis, on 17 February 2020 - 07:01 AM, said:

Speed loss mechanic neat, loss of dissipation cool, ST destruction heat spike is garbage.

XL and LFE needed an associate penalty for use/ST destruction, and what we had previously was perfectly fine.

You were going to die very shortly after ST destruction anyways, now you do it shut down or instantly suicide.

Heat spike punishes pilots who don't manage their heat levels. Heat spikes works every time.

(Come back to the NASCAR thread we miss you)

[Brauer]

VonBruinwald, on 17 February 2020 - 10:42 AM, said:

Heat spike punishes pilots who don't manage their heat levels. Heat spikes works every time.

(Come back to the NASCAR thread we miss you)

"Managing heat" as you call it means you get punished by letting your opponents live longer and by outputting less damage. It's far better to take the risk of using all available heat and deleting enemies in most cases than it is to self-nerf your dps and let your opponents live longer to shoot your mech up.

The ST spike is just an unfun mechanic imo and should be removed. It'd be one thing if it fixed the heat but, but that bug seems more likely to outlive the game than be fixed.

[Prototelis]

VonBruinwald, on 17 February 2020 - 10:42 AM, said:

manage their heat levels.

Riding the heat limit without going over is "managing your heat" and it has been managing your heat properly in every iteration in the series.

[VonBruinwald]

Prototelis, on 17 February 2020 - 11:31 AM, said:

Riding the heat limit without going over is "managing your heat" and it has been managing your heat properly in every iteration in the series.

Lol. You clearly don't understand heat spike.

[Prototelis]

lol. I clearly do.

It's a ******** nonsense mechanic.

[VonBruinwald]

Brauer, on 17 February 2020 - 10:57 AM, said:

"Managing heat" as you call it means you get punished by letting your opponents live longer and by outputting less damage.

The only time you're outputting less damage is when your heat bar is resting, as long as it's moving you have the same DPS the difference is whether it's front loaded or not.

Brauer, on 17 February 2020 - 10:57 AM, said:

It's far better to take the risk of using all available heat and deleting enemies

The key word in there is risk, front loading your damage offers more chance of a kill (reward) when going face to face, the risk is popping if they take your ST. That's Risk-Reward.

You can always bring a coolshot to mitigate the spike if you want to further reduce the risk.

[Prototelis]

VonBruinwald, on 17 February 2020 - 12:09 PM, said:

The only time you're outputting less damage is when your heat bar is resting, as long as it's moving you have the same DPS the difference is whether it's front loaded or not.

lolwut. No.

That is 100% wrong.

[Brauer]

VonBruinwald, on 17 February 2020 - 12:09 PM, said:

The only time you're outputting less damage is when your heat bar is resting, as long as it's moving you have the same DPS the difference is whether it's front loaded or not.



The key word in there is risk, front loading your damage offers more chance of a kill (reward) when going face to face, the risk is popping if they take your ST. That's Risk-Reward.

You can always bring a coolshot to mitigate the spike if you want to further reduce the risk.

You're very wrong here. Front-loaded damage is far superior to damage over time for a number of reasons, and I am sure I will miss some. First off, if you front-load your damage you do not have to expose as long while dealing damage. So you can peek and then cool off/let your weapons go through cooldown. Second, if you front-load your damage with an alpha or PPFLD weapons you can better concentrate your damage on one component which is a huge force multiplier when compared to spreading damage everywhere. Third, when you rip that ST off an enemy or make a kill earlier due to front-loading your damage you are reducing the damage that enemy can do to you and your teammates.

FYI you are losing out on DPS if you are not using as much heat as your build can possibly use without overheating (or in some cases taking some manageable self-inflicted structural damage). Having the heat bar moving up doesn't mean you are maximizing DPS. Chain-firing lasers will move the heat bar, but it still reduces your DPS (and as importantly the impact of your DPS).

I don't know of a way to "manage your heat" as you call it that doesn't reduce your dps or at the very least result in sub-optimal play. Because of that there isn't a risk/reward trade-off worth discussing when it comes to the ST issue. The only time that really is a factor imo is if you already know you are likely to lose a ST real soon. In that case it MIGHT make sense to be more conservative about using your heat to avoid insta-death when the ST goes. But you could still make an argument for just maximizing your damage to remove the enemy threat. If your STs are in relatively decent shape then you want to maximize your DPS and use all available heat.

I think in your risk/reward equation you are neglecting that leaving an enemy mech up is a risk and carries a real cost. That cost generally outweighs the risk of losing a ST and dying when you overheat except in very specific situations.

TLDR: As a rule use your heat. It is a resource and you need to maximize it to be successful. The more efficiently you use your max heat cap/dissipation the better. The more you play with your heat bar sitting low the more you are leaving DPS on the table and enabling the enemy to deal more damage.

Edited by Brauer, 17 February 2020 - 03:07 PM.

[thievingmagpi]

bads running around at 10% heat the whole game LOVE heat spike, makes that 150 damage feel extra good.

[Prototelis]

^ Spicy

[VonBruinwald]

Brauer, on 17 February 2020 - 03:05 PM, said:

TLDR: As a rule use your heat. It is a resource and you need to maximize it to be successful. The more efficiently you use your max heat cap/dissipation the better. The more you play with your heat bar sitting low the more you are leaving DPS on the table and enabling the enemy to deal more damage.

Heat is a resource that should always be in use. As long as the bar is moving you're working. Riding the bar between 0-50 is no different to riding between 50-100. If you're a poker riding 0-50-100 then back to 0 is optimal but it leaves you vulnerable if you get caught out.

Brauer, on 17 February 2020 - 03:05 PM, said:

The only time that really is a factor imo is if you already know you are likely to lose a ST real soon. In that case it MIGHT make sense to be more conservative about using your heat to avoid insta-death when the ST goes. But you could still make an argument for just maximizing your damage to remove the enemy threat. If your STs are in relatively decent shape then you want to maximize your DPS and use all available heat.

And this is the whole risk reward aspect people fail to understand.

Managing your heat doesn't just mean riding it to 95%, it also means dialling it back and riding it lower in certain situations.

If people can't understand that then they'll never understand heat spike.

[Brauer]

VonBruinwald, on 17 February 2020 - 04:19 PM, said:

Heat is a resource that should always be in use. As long as the bar is moving you're working. Riding the bar between 0-50 is no different to riding between 50-100. If you're a poker riding 0-50-100 then back to 0 is optimal but it leaves you vulnerable if you get caught out.




And this is the whole risk reward aspect people fail to understand.

Managing your heat doesn't just mean riding it to 95%, it also means dialling it back and riding it lower in certain situations.

If people can't understand that then they'll never understand heat spike.

Riding the bar between 0 and 50% means you are not using 50% of your heat cap. So no you are not using as much heat as possible. It's hard to understand how you don't see that, the math is pretty clear....also you don't run 0 to 50 to 100 and back to 0 as a trader. In fact you want to alpha as much as possible, which you aren't doing if you wait to hit 0 heat between alpha 2 and alpha 3 (unless for some reason you use 100% of your cap per alpha).

You might want to critically consider whether I am more likely to understand how to use heat and the heat spike mechanic. I happily learn from others, but you're wrong here and I see no evidence in your argument or your record to indicate I'm wrong or that I should reconsider my opinion. Try using more of your heat, it might help you out. You might also note I pointed out a couple of scenarios where one is potentially better off using their heat more conservatively, but those are edge cases.

[Prototelis]

VonBruinwald, on 17 February 2020 - 04:19 PM, said:

Riding the bar between 0-50 is no different to riding between 50-100.

lol wrong.

[VonBruinwald]

Brauer, on 17 February 2020 - 04:28 PM, said:

Riding the bar between 0 and 50% means you are not using 50% of your heat cap. So no you are not using as much heat as possible. It's hard to understand how you don't see that, the math is pretty clear.

As long as the bar is moving you're using heat. It doesn't matter where you ride. As far as the maths go, riding high gives you extra dmg initially but you sacrifice having that dmg on hand for opportunity shots.

Prototelis, on 17 February 2020 - 04:54 PM, said:

lol wrong.

Lol. You clearly don't understand heat spike.

[Brauer]

VonBruinwald, on 17 February 2020 - 05:19 PM, said:

As long as the bar is moving you're using heat. It doesn't matter where you ride. As far as the maths go, riding high gives you extra dmg initially but you sacrifice having that dmg on hand for opportunity shots.



Lol. You clearly don't understand heat spike.

Ok, continue to leave damage on the table and let your opponents live longer. Your perogative.

Nice job ignoring much of the information I presented. Very impressive.

[Prototelis]

VonBruinwald, on 17 February 2020 - 05:19 PM, said:

Lol. You clearly don't understand heat spike.

lol, you clearly don't understand between burst DPS and sustained DPS or how trading works.