87 replies to this topic

[Dimento Graven]

An interesting way to work this would be to have 1 repair bay per side, only 'mech at a time could be in it, and the repair takes some amount of time, minutes, longer based on the extensiveness of the repair, plus there would be a cost -- Remember rearm and repair costs? Those could be applied while being fixed, effecting your end of match pay out.

I really don't know how well this would work, but still... An interesting line of thought...

Several assaults hovering outside the repair bay waiting for the one f'ing light to get the F out, all the while, being long range blasted (assuming the repair bay would have some reasonably stout short/mid range turret defense), screaming and cursing at the little twit to get the F out, finally he does however just in time to be blasted to smithereens as he's the only 'mech left on the field, left to face some portion of a dozen ravening enemy 'mechs.

End result, lost match and the light 'mech loses money at the end of match.

Fun times?

Edited by Dimento Graven, 18 February 2020 - 01:56 PM.

[JediPanther]

Medic!-team member

*dashes over in repair mech*

Medic!-other team member seconds later

Team member Tanks4u has been destroyed by lolwhyu

"#$#@%#@#%@%^$%&R%^! Heal me you little #%@#%! I needed heals!! !@#@#$!"

No,I'll keep my medic and nerd rage in tf2.

[Brauer]

Dimento Graven, on 18 February 2020 - 10:25 AM, said:

By the way, even in that game, the Piranha is OP...

Light mechs OP amirite?

Dimento Graven, on 18 February 2020 - 01:54 PM, said:

An interesting way to work this would be to have 1 repair bay per side, only 'mech at a time could be in it, and the repair takes some amount of time, minutes, longer based on the extensiveness of the repair, plus there would be a cost -- Remember rearm and repair costs? Those could be applied while being fixed, effecting your end of match pay out.

I really don't know how well this would work, but still... An interesting line of thought...

Several assaults hovering outside the repair bay waiting for the one f'ing light to get the F out, all the while, being long range blasted (assuming the repair bay would have some reasonably stout short/mid range turret defense), screaming and cursing at the little twit to get the F out, finally he does however just in time to be blasted to smithereens as he's the only 'mech left on the field, left to face some portion of a dozen ravening enemy 'mechs.

End result, lost match and the light 'mech loses money at the end of match.

Fun times?

Any opportunity to make lights the Boogeyman eh Dimento?

All mechs should just lie down and bend the knee to assaults. Obviously people will still play the other classes to get shot down by OP assaults.

Edited by Brauer, 18 February 2020 - 03:40 PM.

[Dimento Graven]

Brauer, on 18 February 2020 - 03:39 PM, said:

...

Any opportunity to make lights the Boogeyman eh Dimento?

All mechs should just lie down and bend the knee to assaults. Obviously people will still play the other classes to get shot down by OP assaults.

Nah, just pointing out a potential scenario where the most worthless 'mech is potentially f'ing over his team.

Besides, someone has to got to try and counter the "...oh woe is us..." alligator tears of light centric pilots...

Edited by Dimento Graven, 18 February 2020 - 03:51 PM.

[Brauer]

Dimento Graven, on 18 February 2020 - 03:50 PM, said:

Nah, just pointing out a potential scenario where the most worthless 'mech is potentially f'ing over his team.

Besides, someone has to got to try and counter the "...oh woe is us..." alligator tears of light centric pilots...

Light pilots aren't the ones I hear complaining...

[Prototelis]

Dimento Graven, on 18 February 2020 - 03:50 PM, said:

alligator tears of light centric pilots...

lol

Someone mad he got mob ****** for chain firing AC2s.

[FRAGTAST1C]

Dimento Graven, on 18 February 2020 - 01:54 PM, said:

An interesting way to work this would be to have 1 repair bay per side, only 'mech at a time could be in it, and the repair takes some amount of time, minutes, longer based on the extensiveness of the repair, plus there would be a cost -- Remember rearm and repair costs? Those could be applied while being fixed, effecting your end of match pay out.

I really don't know how well this would work, but still... An interesting line of thought...

How 'bout running that scenario in your mind then, just so you can see how completely **** that idea is, especially the queueing part to get the repairs?

[Kotzi]

Which could give you or the enemie an edge in the battle and thus is a tactical decision making this less of just only a deathmatch? Do i try to kill them with the chance that it takes longer untill the repair bay runs out of ressources or do i go to the objective instead when they are several mechs short which try to get repaired. But ye, that would mean a game would need to be longer than couple of minutes and not everyone has time for that.

[martian]

Kotzi, on 18 February 2020 - 11:50 PM, said:

Which could give you or the enemie an edge in the battle and thus is a tactical decision making this less of just only a deathmatch? Do i try to kill them with the chance that it takes longer untill the repair bay runs out of ressources or do i go to the objective instead when they are several mechs short which try to get repaired. But ye, that would mean a game would need to be longer than couple of minutes and not everyone has time for that.

On top of that, it would need some work done by PGI ...

[Horseman]

Kotzi, on 18 February 2020 - 11:50 PM, said:

Which could give you or the enemie an edge in the battle and thus is a tactical decision making this less of just only a deathmatch? Do i try to kill them with the chance that it takes longer untill the repair bay runs out of ressources or do i go to the objective instead when they are several mechs short which try to get repaired. But ye, that would mean a game would need to be longer than couple of minutes and not everyone has time for that.

What would actually happen is a ragefest over idiots hogging the repair bays for cosmetic damage while their teammates are killing themselves to hold the front line. Brought to extreme, LRM Atlas parked in the repair bay for the entire match

[Dimento Graven]

Brauer, on 18 February 2020 - 04:21 PM, said:

Light pilots aren't the ones I hear complaining...

Until someone suggests something like knock downs, or collision damage, or physical attacks, or upping assault torso pitch/yaw range and speed by a small percentage, and then it's "Oh woe is us light pilots, do anything that isn't a buff to us and we're just gonna die, die, die..."

LOL...

Prototelis, on 18 February 2020 - 04:54 PM, said:

lol

Someone mad he got mob ****** for chain firing AC2s.

LOL, someone's still butt hurt from being AC2 chain fired to death...

FRAGTAST1C, on 18 February 2020 - 07:04 PM, said:

How 'bout running that scenario in your mind then, just so you can see how completely **** that idea is, especially the queueing part to get the repairs?

First, it was just a quick 'spit balling' when I came up with that scenario, secondly a "healing 'mech" would/should only be allowed to heal one 'mech at a time, there's gonna be a queue there...

What's you're idea on this? 12 healing 'mechs, or 12 bays per side? Instant healing? All of this (especially the "healing 'mech") breaks my 'suspension of disbelief', but I admit I've only seen a few ideas posted here, none of them all that good.

Horseman, on 19 February 2020 - 06:29 AM, said:

What would actually happen is a ragefest over idiots hogging the repair bays for cosmetic damage while their teammates are killing themselves to hold the front line. Brought to extreme, LRM Atlas parked in the repair bay for the entire match

Yeah I see things like this happening too...

I just don't see "healing/in match repairs", at least for quick play, as a viable option.

Now for faction play... There might be some room for it there, depending on mode.

Honestly though, I believe that there's a lot of niggling little details that would need to be addressed first, like for instance, Assault mode, the bases don't provide targeting information for a 'mech that's standing right there. That base is supposed to be your mobile command center, with tons of electronic warfare equipment, yet, an enemy gets near it and no one/nothing at the base is even capable of providing targeting info.

I honestly feel they should. Same thing in Conquest, a captured mining rig should provide targeting information to the team that currently owns it for as long as they own it.

Both of these changes would be affected by ECM and stealth (a base/mining rig can't provide targeting through ECM, can't target a stealthed 'mech).

It would make those game modes more interesting in my opinion.

Edited by Dimento Graven, 19 February 2020 - 06:50 AM.

[Brauer]

Dimento Graven, on 19 February 2020 - 06:49 AM, said:

Until someone suggests something like knock downs, or collision damage, or physical attacks, or upping assault torso pitch/yaw range and speed by a small percentage, and then it's "Oh woe is us light pilots, do anything that isn't a buff to us and we're just gonna die, die, die..."

LOL...

LOL, someone's still butt hurt from being AC2 chain fired to death...

First, it was just a quick 'spit balling' when I came up with that scenario, secondly a "healing 'mech" would/should only be allowed to heal one 'mech at a time, there's gonna be a queue there...

What's you're idea on this? 12 healing 'mechs, or 12 bays per side? Instant healing? All of this (especially the "healing 'mech") breaks my 'suspension of disbelief', but I admit I've only seen a few ideas posted here, none of them all that good.

Yeah I see things like this happening too...

I just don't see "healing/in match repairs", at least for quick play, as a viable option.

Now for faction play... There might be some room for it there, depending on mode.

Honestly though, I believe that there's a lot of niggling little details that would need to be addressed first, like for instance, Assault mode, the bases don't provide targeting information for a 'mech that's standing right there. That base is supposed to be your mobile command center, with tons of electronic warfare equipment, yet, an enemy gets near it and no one/nothing at the base is even capable of providing targeting info.

I honestly feel they should. Same thing in Conquest, a captured mining rig should provide targeting information to the team that currently owns it for as long as they own it.

Both of these changes would be affected by ECM and stealth (a base/mining rig can't provide targeting through ECM, can't target a stealthed 'mech).

It would make those game modes more interesting in my opinion.

Okay, so you are just building a straw man here.

1. I can't recall any substantial part of the playerbase being against agility buffs to many mechs, including assaults. I've never heard a proficient light pilot come out against agility buffs. In fact many people consider low agility following the engine desync to be a major fault of the game.

2. The rest of your argument is conflating things here. Because people come out against straight buffs to assaults or nerfs to lights does not mean that light pilots are complaining. In fact, it just highlights your own cries that lights are OP and your own desire to see your preferred weight class buffed and your tiny boogeymem nerfed into the dirt.

Before you accuse me of being a light apologist keep in mind I primarily play heavies in comp and have only recently begun playing mostly lights in QP as a change of pace.

[Dimento Graven]

Brauer, on 19 February 2020 - 08:40 AM, said:

Okay, so you are just building a straw man here.

Ah, the inevitable, "I don't like your argument, therefore I will accuse you of arguing incorrectly..."

Quote

... I've never heard a proficient light pilot come out against agility buffs.

I applaud you for making one of my points for me. You've differentiated the issue with light pilot complaints. "Proficient" vs. "non-proficient". I totally agree that the "proficient" pilots won't be bothered by agility buffs to heavier 'mechs, however, the ratio of proficient vs non-proficient is like... what? 1000 to 1? A thousand bad pilots relying on mashing themselves into the enemy 'mech's legs/rear and mashing buttons until the high DPS crit seeking loadouts they've got equipped do enough damage, while the large 'mechs fight PGI's pitch/yaw limitations to get a clear shot on them vs. the one proficient pilot that actually uses his superior maneuverability, never actually contacting the enemy target at all, and focusing the existing open spots to quickly and with actual specific intent to kill the target.

Quote

2. The rest of your argument is conflating things here. Because people come out against straight buffs to assaults or nerfs to lights does not mean that light pilots are complaining. In fact, it just highlights your own cries that lights are OP and your own desire to see your preferred weight class buffed and your tiny boogeymem nerfed into the dirt.

Again, any time anyone makes suggestions that might affect the light 'mech in some negative manner and you get tons of posts from people crying foul promising doom and gloom and the end of MWO. If you're not seeing that, well... Maybe we're just following different threads.

Quote

Before you accuse me of being a light apologist keep in mind I primarily play heavies in comp and have only recently begun playing mostly lights in QP as a change of pace.

WAY back in the day (I dunno, 2015?) I was addicted to light 'mechs myself. I plan on taking up lights again, I just avoid it because I know me: It'll be like *******, once I start again I'll do nothing but speedballing until I, or the game, ends.

(wow, they filter out the proper name of the drug, coke - weird)

Edited by Dimento Graven, 19 February 2020 - 09:00 AM.

[Xiphias]

Dimento Graven, on 18 February 2020 - 01:54 PM, said:

I really don't know how well this would work, but still... An interesting line of thought...

Several assaults hovering outside the repair bay waiting for the one f'ing light to get the F out, all the while, being long range blasted (assuming the repair bay would have some reasonably stout short/mid range turret defense), screaming and cursing at the little twit to get the F out, finally he does however just in time to be blasted to smithereens as he's the only 'mech left on the field, left to face some portion of a dozen ravening enemy 'mechs.

End result, lost match and the light 'mech loses money at the end of match.

Fun times?

If several assaults die in the time it takes for a single light mech to get out of the repair bay, I doubt that letting one assault into the repair bay instead would make much difference in the match. Sounds like a bunch of assault pilots blaming a light mech for their own problems to me.

Honestly, lights go from fresh to fried pretty fast so it's more likely that they're either 1) Fresh and don't need repairs or 2) Dead and can't get repairs. The ones that actually spread damage well enough to get good use out of it are hopefully getting some decent value. Not to say that the above scenario wouldn't happen, but as lights are significantly faster and actually able to go from the front lines back to base without completely screwing over their team, they are much more likely to get real benefit out of it. They could pop in and out efficiently, while having assaults try to do it would more often than not lead to the team losing.

More realistic scenario:

Mr. Slowpoke assault mech lumbers off behind his team. Get's his paint scratched and decides that as the most important mech on the team he needs to go back for immediate repairs to protect his "Superior Firepower" turns around leaving the team and heads slowly back to base. Calls for support as he's getting jumped by light mechs. Dies before he gets to the repair station (or shortly after leaving it). The rest of the team loses without having the extra support. Assault blames the team for "not supporting the assaults" while doing under 100 damage for the entire match.

[Brauer]

Dimento Graven, on 19 February 2020 - 08:58 AM, said:

Ah, the inevitable, "I don't like your argument, therefore I will accuse you of arguing incorrectly..."

I applaud you for making one of my points for me. You've differentiated the issue with light pilot complaints. "Proficient" vs. "non-proficient". I totally agree that the "proficient" pilots won't be bothered by agility buffs to heavier 'mechs, however, the ratio of proficient vs non-proficient is like... what? 1000 to 1? A thousand bad pilots relying on mashing themselves into the enemy 'mech's legs/rear and mashing buttons until the high DPS crit seeking loadouts they've got equipped do enough damage, while the large 'mechs fight PGI's pitch/yaw limitations to get a clear shot on them vs. the one proficient pilot that actually uses his superior maneuverability, never actually contacting the enemy target at all, and focusing the existing open spots to quickly and with actual specific intent to kill the target.

Again, any time anyone makes suggestions that might affect the light 'mech in some negative manner and you get tons of posts from people crying foul promising doom and gloom and the end of MWO. If you're not seeing that, well... Maybe we're just following different threads.

WAY back in the day (I dunno, 2015?) I was addicted to light 'mechs myself. I plan on taking up lights again, I just avoid it because I know me: It'll be like *******, once I start again I'll do nothing but speedballing until I, or the game, ends.

(wow, they filter out the proper name of the drug, coke - weird)

1. Just murder the light before it leg humps you. I can't remember the last time any light did that to me and I ran a torso mount only assault a lot from August to December as worlds practice.

2. Again, people coming out against nerfs to lights does not equal light pilots complaining. It is instead a reasonable response to attempts to shift balance even more in favor of assaults. I am one of the people who has argued against your misguided proposals and attempts to buff your favored class, and I've done so from several angles, including that knockdowns or melee would very likely be poorly implemented and janky, that melee in particular won't even help assaults against lights as most attacks will be whiffs, and that the highest performing class in the game doesn't not need a buff and in particular doesn't need a buff at the expense and of the lowest performing class.

[Prototelis]

Dimento Graven, on 19 February 2020 - 06:49 AM, said:

LOL, someone's still butt hurt from being AC2 chain fired to death...

LOL, you've never killed me with chain fire AC2 spam.

[Dimento Graven]

Xiphias, on 19 February 2020 - 09:47 AM, said:

If several assaults die in the time it takes for a single light mech to get out of the repair bay, I doubt that letting one assault into the repair bay instead would make much difference in the match. Sounds like a bunch of assault pilots blaming a light mech for their own problems to me.

Honestly, lights go from fresh to fried pretty fast so it's more likely that they're either 1) Fresh and don't need repairs or 2) Dead and can't get repairs. The ones that actually spread damage well enough to get good use out of it are hopefully getting some decent value. Not to say that the above scenario wouldn't happen, but as lights are significantly faster and actually able to go from the front lines back to base without completely screwing over their team, they are much more likely to get real benefit out of it. They could pop in and out efficiently, while having assaults try to do it would more often than not lead to the team losing.

More realistic scenario:

Mr. Slowpoke assault mech lumbers off behind his team. Get's his paint scratched and decides that as the most important mech on the team he needs to go back for immediate repairs to protect his "Superior Firepower" turns around leaving the team and heads slowly back to base. Calls for support as he's getting jumped by light mechs. Dies before he gets to the repair station (or shortly after leaving it). The rest of the team loses without having the extra support. Assault blames the team for "not supporting the assaults" while doing under 100 damage for the entire match.

I'm sure there'll be plenty of both scenarios.

Brauer, on 19 February 2020 - 09:48 AM, said:

1. Just murder the light before it leg humps you. I can't remember the last time any light did that to me and I ran a torso mount only assault a lot from August to December as worlds practice.

Yeah, now you're ignoring the "proficient" and "non-proficient" light pilot difference. Proficient light pilots won't be seen, but honestly they're not the problem, it's the hordes of non-proficient light pilots that have gotten annoying.

Quote

... I am one of the people who has argued against your misguided proposals and attempts to buff your favored class,

Which are "misguided"?

Quote

... including that knockdowns or melee would very likely be poorly implemented and janky, that melee in particular won't even help assaults against lights as most attacks will be whiffs, and that the highest performing class in the game doesn't not need a buff and in particular doesn't need a buff at the expense and of the lowest performing class.

Uh huh, yeah... What ever buddy, you just lost ALL credibility with me on that. It's the lights who come out hardest against knockdowns and melee, why? Because of the majority of light pilots who are "non-proficient" and rely on leg humping.

Knockdowns and physical attacks have been a part of BattleTech. We had it for a while in this game, even had meaningful collision damage for a while, but PGI is lazy, and the non-proficient light pilot crowd was loud and vociferous in their hate of anything that means they'll actually have to start piloting with skill.

Again, Solaris is the PERFECT PLACE to begin working on adding physical attacks and knockdowns and meaningful collision damage and working out the kinks and getting it working on par with the rest of the features in this game.

We can't even get the little shits to agree to adding it in Solaris, they're THAT afraid of having to learn how to NOT leg hump...

Edited by Dimento Graven, 19 February 2020 - 11:03 AM.

[Prototelis]

As a light pilot, I personally don't give a **** about knockdowns or physical attacks.

Proficient light pilots don't often leg hump, because it slows you down significantly or stops you, both of which are bad. Leg humping isn't all that effective in Solaris anyways, you'll notice no one in the top 10 in any division is exclusively leg humping. Depending on the division there isn't really a whole lot of physical contact, because physical contant stops you from moving and generally makes it more difficult to soak.

Knockdown and IK were removed because of desync issues. "lazy programming" has nothing to do with it; the people working on the game at that time were very talented. It is incredibly difficult to sync those kinds of movements in a server authoritative environment like MWO.

MWO also has more and less uniform hit zones than a lot of other shooters. Effects like IK are usually client side effects. We've talked before about how the game uses as few client side effects as possible because of the way it works, it's server authoritative. You just choose to boomer it up and double down on the dumb.

I don't think knockdown has a real place in the game, because stunlock is cancer, but it wouldn't affect my play that much.

Edited by Prototelis, 19 February 2020 - 11:06 AM.

[Brauer]

Dimento Graven, on 19 February 2020 - 10:37 AM, said:

I'm sure there'll be plenty of both scenarios.

Yeah, now you're ignoring the "proficient" and "non-proficient" light pilot difference. Proficient light pilots won't be seen, but honestly they're not the problem, it's the hordes of non-proficient light pilots that have gotten annoying.

Which are "misguided"?

Uh huh, yeah... What ever buddy, you just lost ALL credibility with me on that. It's the lights who come out hardest against knockdowns and melee, why? Because of the majority of light pilots who are "non-proficient" and rely on leg humping.

Knockdowns and physical attacks have been a part of BattleTech. We had it for a while in this game, even had meaningful collision damage for a while, but PGI is lazy, and the non-proficient light pilot crows was loud and vociferous in their hate of anything that means they'll actually have to start piloting with skill.

Again, Solaris is the PERFECT PLACE to begin working on adding physical attacks and knockdowns and meaningful collision damage and working out the kinks and getting it working on par with the rest of the features in this game.

We can't even get the little shits to agree to adding it in Solaris, they're THAT afraid of having to learn how to NOT leg hump...

1. Just murder the light. You said it yourself the leg humpers aren't good, should be easy to kill.
2. Anything I remember you proposing aside from agility buffs is misguided or at best simply an attempt to buff your preferred class at the expense of the others.
3. Has a single leg humper come into this thread to argue against melee or knockdowns? No? Ok then.

You really want PGI to try to add melee and knockdowns after their original implementation of knockdowns was incredibly flawed AND now that they are committing essentially zero resources to MWO? Sounds like a recipe for a disaster to me. Add to it that lights really don't need nerfs right now and assaults don't need knockdown or melee ( agility buffs for some would be good though).

You really only ever argue for either janky features or buffs to your preferred class. It's hard to take any balance related proposals you make seriously because of your obvious bias.

Get ganked.

[Dimento Graven]

Brauer, on 19 February 2020 - 10:50 AM, said:

1. Just murder the light. You said it yourself the leg humpers aren't good, should be easy to kill.

Overly simplistic.

Quote

2. Anything I remember you proposing aside from agility buffs is misguided or at best simply an attempt to buff your preferred class at the expense of the others.

Like what?

Quote

3. Has a single leg humper come into this thread to argue against melee or knockdowns? No? Ok then.

They have historically, and we're only on the second page of this thread and ain't it locked yet so...

Quote

You really want PGI to try to add melee and knockdowns after their original implementation of knockdowns was incredibly flawed AND now that they are committing essentially zero resources to MWO? Sounds like a recipe for a disaster to me. Add to it that lights really don't need nerfs right now and assaults don't need knockdown or melee ( agility buffs for some would be good though).

Oh my F'ing gawd... If we took out everything PGI ever initially implemented with incredible flaws we'd have ZERO game.

Yeah I realize PGI has removed pretty much every resource they could from this game, it doesn't prevent us from discussing what we'd like to see in future versions of this game, or in the future of this game if/when it's acquired by another company with actual talent, actual advertising budgets, and some actual intent on going beyond the 'minimally viable' threshold.

Quote

You really only ever argue for either janky features or buffs to your preferred class. It's hard to take any balance related proposals you make seriously because of your obvious bias.

Again, examples please.

Knockdowns, collisions, physical attacks would affect all mech classes equally, the only disproportionate effects would be against the low skill players, which my response is... And?