87 replies to this topic

[JediPanther]

No one wants another re-re-re--scale making catapults as small as fleas and jenners as big as atlas. You think lights are hard now you missed the past five years of indirect and direct nerfs. Bad enough the 35ts got ganked just to sell the 20ts. Outside of very specific events I hardly see 35ts. 14 armor on the jr7s are merely two points more armor than an lct.

[Brauer]

JediPanther, on 19 February 2020 - 05:52 PM, said:

No one wants another re-re-re--scale making catapults as small as fleas and jenners as big as atlas. You think lights are hard now you missed the past five years of indirect and direct nerfs. Bad enough the 35ts got ganked just to sell the 20ts. Outside of very specific events I hardly see 35ts. 14 armor on the jr7s are merely two points more armor than an lct.

Did anyone suggest a re-scale?

[FRAGTAST1C]

Dimento Graven, on 19 February 2020 - 06:49 AM, said:

What's you're idea on this? 12 healing 'mechs, or 12 bays per side? Instant healing? All of this (especially the "healing 'mech") breaks my 'suspension of disbelief', but I admit I've only seen a few ideas posted here, none of them all that good.

None of them are good in MWO's style 'cause the concept itself is bad.

[FRAGTAST1C]

Captain Stiffy, on 19 February 2020 - 12:44 PM, said:

nobody every plays. the thing flashes but it never has people in the queue. i stopped wasting minutes of my life. literal life wasting simulator.

FW is populated enough. It depends on the time. Given that this is a dead game, FW is the only answer for group play and it is a good one at that. If you want group play, then tell others to stop sync dropping.

[martian]

If people want to discuss "Assaults vs. Lights", they should go and create their own thread.

[Vellron2005]

Captain Stiffy, on 18 February 2020 - 12:25 AM, said:

there should be a mech with heals and it can heal you

What are you, 12?

This is the stupidest thing I've ever heard on this forum, and I've heard some pretty stupid ideas..

Maybe consider switching to WOW or LOL or something?

Geezus that was a terrible idea..

[thievingmagpi]

blah blah lights are bad I can't aim yadda yadda, nothing new just the same gleeful ignorance from people who don't want to learn.

[Dimento Graven]

So let's cut through all attempts at stealth sniping, insinuations of lack of skills, so on and so forth, let's just get straight yes or no answers for the following, just to make ourselves clear (because I'm quite tired of the idiots trying to make this about "my chosen 'mech class", when it appears to me it's as easily the same with them, "all about preserving their chosen 'mech class"):

Even if "stun lock" were removed and impossible all the minor bits of warping was eliminated, you're against knockdowns?
Against adding knockdowns, as is, to ONLY Solaris?
Against activating meaningful mech-on-mech collision damage?
Against greater pitch/yaw range and speed for the many, MANY, 'mechs that were overly affected by engine desynch?
Against adding physical attacks?
Against adding physical attacks to ONLY Solaris?

BlaizerP, on 19 February 2020 - 02:24 PM, said:

Man I thought this was a stupid thread based on the title...

Yeah, but maybe we can discuss it and maybe accidentally come up with some neat idea which we hadn't thought of before, if for no other reason than to talk about BattleTech, Mechwarrior, and video games?

[thievingmagpi]

I'm for and against a lot of things in MWO.

The main issue isn't those concepts on their own, in a vacuum per se. I don't necessarily have a problem with concepts like knockdowns or "role warfare", or stackpoling, or betting in solaris, or this, that, and the other as gameplay elements.

I have a problem with them in MWO and absolutely have a problem with them being handled by PGI.

Edited by thievingmagpi, 20 February 2020 - 02:30 PM.

[Dimento Graven]

thievingmagpi, on 20 February 2020 - 02:29 PM, said:

I'm for and against a lot of things in MWO.

The main issue isn't those concepts on their own, in a vacuum per se. I don't necessarily have a problem with concepts like knockdowns or "role warfare", or stackpoling, or betting in solaris, or this, that, and the other as gameplay elements.

I have a problem with them in MWO and absolutely have a problem with them being handled by PGI.

Quite the prevarication there.

However, if I interpret your statement correctly, you're a firm "No" on all of them.

[thievingmagpi]

I'm not against eating double bacon cheeserburgers with pints of Stone Double Bourbon Ale every single day either.

I'm not going to do it because it's a bad idea however.

Edited by thievingmagpi, 20 February 2020 - 02:39 PM.

[Brauer]

Dimento Graven, on 20 February 2020 - 02:24 PM, said:

So let's cut through all attempts at stealth sniping, insinuations of lack of skills, so on and so forth, let's just get straight yes or no answers for the following, just to make ourselves clear (because I'm quite tired of the idiots trying to make this about "my chosen 'mech class", when it appears to me it's as easily the same with them, "all about preserving their chosen 'mech class"):

Even if "stun lock" were removed and impossible all the minor bits of warping was eliminated, you're against knockdowns?
Against adding knockdowns, as is, to ONLY Solaris?
Against activating meaningful mech-on-mech collision damage?
Against greater pitch/yaw range and speed for the many, MANY, 'mechs that were overly affected by engine desynch?
Against adding physical attacks?
Against adding physical attacks to ONLY Solaris?

Yeah, but maybe we can discuss it and maybe accidentally come up with some neat idea which we hadn't thought of before, if for no other reason than to talk about BattleTech, Mechwarrior, and video games?

I've already weighed in on these for the most part, but again.

1. Knockdowns w/o stun lock and any warping/rubber-banding/jank: The knockdown effect itself, I assume, would stop a light mech for some amount of time. Even a few seconds is a huge nerf to lights and you might as well just write the effected light off at that point. I am against that. I don't think this mechanic will improve balance or fun.
2. Knockdowns just in Solaris: I don't think this is a particularly good idea because I think making more mechanics Solaris exclusive just increases the learning curve. Also, you'll just see people abuse the mechanic, so again not a balance improvement, not fun.
3. Big collision damage: I don't think increasing collision damage is necessary. At best it does little to impact the game, at worst it's an unnecessary nerf to lights.
4. More agility: I've already said that mechs that are underperforming, particularly those with bad agility for their class, should see agility increases and/or other buffs to bring them up. Those buffs should be applied to underperformers of every weight class, NOT JUST ASSAULTS.
5. Melee: No. At best all it does is prevent those rare draws in Solaris and even rarer weaponless draws in QP, and assault pilots and others find it nigh impossible to hit light mechs with melee so it doesn't change overall balance. At worst, it introduces a ton of jank and is made so strong due to its area of effect that it is a big nerf to lights and unnecessarily shifts balance even further towards assaults.
6. Solaris Melee: No. See points 2 and 5.

So basically, agility buffs to low performers makes sense to me. That also seems to be something a lot of the community has been in favor of. The rest should be tossed out imo.

Re: the people you're calling idiots: Let's see who is biased here.
All-time I have played lights 15% of the time and assaults 23% of the time.
All-time you have played lights 2% of the time and assaults 61% of the time.

In the last three months I played lights 59% of the time once (the other two were 13 and 15%) and played assaults between 16 and 33% of the time.
You played lights less than 1% of the time (maybe not at all in QP?) and assaults between 80 and 98% of the time.

Look at those stats for half a second and tell me you aren't just protecting your favored class. You can't if you're honest. Maybe drop in a light a few times and see how it looks from the other side instead of arguing bad changes to balance to make your favored class better.

[PhoenixFire55]

This thread is going places ... Who could have guessed that chainfiring AC2s is ineffective against OP lights?

[Dimento Graven]

Brauer, on 20 February 2020 - 08:46 PM, said:

...

Look at those stats for half a second and tell me you aren't just protecting your favored class. You can't if you're honest. Maybe drop in a light a few times and see how it looks from the other side instead of arguing bad changes to balance to make your favored class better.

You're rejecting any and all features that would affect all classes equally based SPECIFICALLY on you think that they might affect lights more negatively than other classes.

Your own bias is plain to see. Your refusal to add things specifically and only to Solaris is MOST telling, excusing it under the guise of "harder to learn", lol...

The stats don't reflect data prior to what? 2016, I was primarily a light pilot before then, back far enough I remember (and enjoyed) the streak Raven primacy.

The 'mech isn't so important to me as the weapon of choice and for me that's gauss. Best platforms for gauss are assaults and heavies, so that's what I pilot.

My favorite 'mech of all time on table top and in other versions of computer games has been a medium 'mech, the Hatchetman.

The Hatchetman is worthless without melee.

I want melee in some form, and I want the Hatchetman (don't even get me started on the wet dream of the impossibility of somehow having a heavy gauss on a Hatchetment, oh baby!).

[dario03]

I'm just wondering why he decided to use a light in his "most worthless mech" example... I mean I know he hates lights for whatever reason but I could swear I was in a drop with him the other day and he declared himself the number one hater of lrms or lockons. And really wouldn't that be the most likely mech type to stand near a R&R bay if we had them? I mean how many lurms can you stuff into an assault if you only had to carry a few tonnes of ammo? I imagine more lrm~100 mechs would be standing there than brawling lights.

[Brauer]

Dimento Graven, on 20 February 2020 - 09:18 PM, said:

You're rejecting any and all features that would affect all classes equally based SPECIFICALLY on you think that they might affect lights more negatively than other classes.

Your own bias is plain to see. Your refusal to add things specifically and only to Solaris is MOST telling, excusing it under the guise of "harder to learn", lol...

The stats don't reflect data prior to what? 2016, I was primarily a light pilot before then, back far enough I remember (and enjoyed) the streak Raven primacy.

The 'mech isn't so important to me as the weapon of choice and for me that's gauss. Best platforms for gauss are assaults and heavies, so that's what I pilot.

My favorite 'mech of all time on table top and in other versions of computer games has been a medium 'mech, the Hatchetman.

The Hatchetman is worthless without melee.

I want melee in some form, and I want the Hatchetman (don't even get me started on the wet dream of the impossibility of somehow having a heavy gauss on a Hatchetment, oh baby!).

The fact stands that you have hardly touched lights since July '16, while I've played all classes quite a bit. I think it's also quite understandable that I'd be skeptical that you ran lights extensively before then (or mained them) seeing as the first time you played lights more than 10% of the time after stats began was Oct. '17. Even assuming you played lights 100% of the time before July '16 you are clearly out of touch with light play, and have made it clear that you are in the tank for assaults. You stated in this thread that "lights should be the weakest class." Which, they already are btw. But yeah, I see I am biased 🙄

Edited by Brauer, 20 February 2020 - 09:51 PM.

[Captain Stiffy]

Vellron2005, on 20 February 2020 - 01:13 AM, said:

What are you, 12?

This is the stupidest thing I've ever heard on this forum, and I've heard some pretty stupid ideas..

Maybe consider switching to WOW or LOL or something?

Geezus that was a terrible idea..

there should be a mech with heals and it can heal u

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

Captain Stiffy, on 20 February 2020 - 11:47 PM, said:

there should be a mech with heals and it can heal u

-no there should not. you're in the wrong universe for that, pal.

-and no, there ain't no cure for the Lurmertime-Blues

[Horseman]

Captain Stiffy, on 19 February 2020 - 12:41 PM, said:

tehy could send you down a new mech that is the same as your other one but its fresh and you just go inside like a bridge

That's how you can make a drop deck work in Faction Warfare .

Captain Stiffy, on 19 February 2020 - 12:44 PM, said:

nobody every plays. the thing flashes but it never has people in the queue. i stopped wasting minutes of my life. literal life wasting simulator.

People play FW. YOu have to queue in the right time periods, though.

Dimento Graven, on 19 February 2020 - 01:56 PM, said:

Lights SHOULD be the weakest class, they're LIGHT 'mechs for god's sake.

Wrong. Lights should be the weakest in terms of armor and firepower. Which they are.
They also should be superior to other classes in terms of mobility. Which they are.
Light vs assault is always a question of which mech is going to be better able to employ their main advantage over the other. The light can dodge fire for a long time, but one or two good hits and it's toast. The assault can tank damage for a long time, but the pilot needs to think ahead and anticipate the light's movement to get these shots in.

Quote

It makes ZERO sense that lights get to jam themselves into the rear of a heavier 'mech with impunity, get to smash into legs with near negligible damage, get to enjoy physics breaking maneuverability, so on and so forth. None of that ever existed pre MWO.

Impunity?
Simple question: why the frick was the assault unsupported? Did it wander off to Zimbabwe or was camping spawn zone? If so, then it deserves to be ganked for that tactical error. Exactly as do light mechs attempting to make a no-skill rush straight into enemy firing lines.

Quote

By the way some of you keep mentioning these stats about light 'mechs being least scoring, least survivable, so on and so forth.
Where are these stats at?

There was an entire document on mech performance in MWOCS around somewhere IIRC, can't find it rn but it exists.
There's also this: https://onedrive.liv...AHptT7QlK2BnRvg
And we always have https://mwomercs.com...e/leaderboards/ as well.

Dimento Graven, on 20 February 2020 - 02:24 PM, said:

Against activating meaningful mech-on-mech collision damage?

This might make sense for Solaris - and Solaris only - on account of matches where both contestants run out of ammo. Nowhere else though.

Quote

Yeah, but maybe we can discuss it and maybe accidentally come up with some neat idea which we hadn't thought of before, if for no other reason than to talk about BattleTech, Mechwarrior, and video games?

Original ideas are a myth

Captain Stiffy, on 20 February 2020 - 11:47 PM, said:

there should be a mech with heals and it can heal u

No, OP, there shouldn't. Now please stop trolling.

Edited by Horseman, 21 February 2020 - 08:57 AM.

[Prototelis]

Dimento Graven, on 20 February 2020 - 02:24 PM, said:

Even if "stun lock" were removed and impossible all the minor bits of warping was eliminated, you're against knockdowns?

How would the stunlock aspect of knockdown be removed? Live IK will NEVER work in this game because of it's server authoritative implementation. I cannot think of a single shooter game with an environment like this one.

Quote

Against adding knockdowns, as is, to ONLY Solaris?

To what end? It's already been explained to you that solaris engagements don't typically involve physical contact because it makes soaking more difficult. Solaris matches are already really short, without an added stunlock mechanic. It would make more sense to resolve solaris matches where no one is dead by giving the win to the player that did more damage.

Quote

Against activating meaningful mech-on-mech collision damage?

Cool, so my teammates can rip a leg off at the beginning of a match. Pass.

Quote

Against greater pitch/yaw range and speed for the many, MANY, 'mechs that were overly affected by engine desynch?

Yes, some mechs need a boost, but they don't need to be nearly as agile as some pre-desync heavies/assaults.

Quote

Against adding physical attacks?
Against adding physical attacks to ONLY Solaris?

To what end? Physical contact in solaris is rare. Game in general doesn't need more reasons for people to NSR. Why would I stunlock myself for an attack animation when I can just fire weapons that do more damage?

If you're stripped you deserve to die.

Edited by Prototelis, 21 February 2020 - 09:59 AM.