201 replies to this topic

[General Solo]

Hazeclaw, on 05 March 2020 - 12:25 PM, said:

it takes 2 players to share armor, armor sharing works every time

Takes two players to draw agro
The one bad at it, Shares armour
The other is trading like a boss

[VonBruinwald]

Prototelis, on 07 March 2020 - 03:07 PM, said:

Again, no I am not. The distinction I am making is not eating **** for no reason.

The simplest way to explain the two concepts;

Armor sharing is supporting dumb pusha pusha.

Armor sharing is dividing aggro in attempt to preserve as much firepower as possible.

Yes you are. They're the same thing.

You're argument is "if your team is pushing you can't health pool, 'cause pushing is dumb".

[Prototelis]

No, they are not.

They share some of the same concepts, but they are not the same thing.

My argument is; sharing armor equates to eating **** for no reason. For example, the OP doesn't equate long range play/harassing as sharing armor. You will find that most of the community feels this way. This is because most of the people playing the game equare "armor sharing" to eating **** for no reason.

Health pooling is careful management of aggro by several means. Which includes long range play (albeit with far more effective mechs than a 2erll cicada, which has already been discussed), short range harassing by light mechs (which are managing aggro and actually not trying to be hit, nor should they always be directly involved in fight see: effective squirreling.), and presenting more targets in trade than you are being presented with.

Which is why I've been pushing for the health pooling concept over the dumb **** that armor sharing, because health pooling relates to strategies that often involve taking as little damage as possible instead of giving armor and hoping to avoid attrition by getting everyone to eat **** at an equal rate.

Edited by Prototelis, 07 March 2020 - 03:30 PM.

[VonBruinwald]

Prototelis, on 07 March 2020 - 03:29 PM, said:

Health pooling is careful management of aggro by several means. Which includes long range play (albeit with far more effective mechs than a 2erll cicada, which has already been discussed), short range harassing by light mechs (which are managing aggro and actually not trying to be hit, nor should they always be directly involved in fight see: effective squirreling.), and presenting more targets in trade than you are being presented with.

Not one of those things have to do with pooling health. Not once do you mention switching fresh mechs with wounded ones. You might want to rename your tactic. Just call it aggro management.

Your concept is actually comprised of 3 separate tactics, sniping, harassing and just good ol' trading. All of which don't need defining. I suppose you could call it a battlefield strategy that encompasses the afore mentioned tactics, it would certainly make more sense that way.

This is your problem, you try and (re)define things that already exist, look at the Nascar thread. Everybody intuitively knows what a Nascar is but you tried to redefine the entire concept and attach a measure of success that doesn't even apply to your own definition.

[Prototelis]

VonBruinwald, on 07 March 2020 - 03:43 PM, said:

Not one of those things have to do with pooling health. Not once do you mention switching fresh mechs with wounded ones. You might want to rename your tactic. Just call it aggro management.

All of the things I have mentioned have to do with pooling health; because pooling health doesn't imply giving it away for free. IE; eating **** for no reason. Rotating hurt mechs to the back so that they may continue to fire but draw a lower amount of fire themselves is a self evident and elementary aspect of health pooling. Infact, other much better players have included that observation in this very thread. There are many aspects/ covered by health pooling. It isn't literally just 3 things. It does share the aspect of spreading damage amongst the team, but precludes eating **** for no reason.

Again, armor sharing is eating **** for no reason. Health pooling is careful management of aggro in order to preserve firepower to fight attrition.

Edited by Prototelis, 07 March 2020 - 03:56 PM.

[K O Z A K]

we need to open up an MWO dictionary thread where prototrollis and vontrollbait can argue for hundreds of pages about every term used in the game

[VonBruinwald]

Prototelis, on 07 March 2020 - 03:55 PM, said:

All of the things I have mentioned have to do with sharing armour; because armour sharing doesn't imply giving it away for free. IE; eating **** for no reason. Rotating hurt mechs to the back so that they may continue to fire but draw a lower amount of fire themselves is a self evident and elementary aspect of armour sharing. Infact, other much better players have included that observation in this very thread. There are many aspects/ covered by armour sharing. It isn't literally just 3 things. It does share the aspect of spreading damage amongst the team, but precludes eating **** for no reason.

Again, armor sharing is eating **** for no reason. armour sharing is careful management of aggro in order to preserve firepower to fight attrition.

Armour sharing doesn't imply giving it away for free. That's your reinterpretation. Armour sharing is for all intent purposes drawing aggro.

Really the concept you're trying to grasp at is a meta-strategy, armour sharing is one aspect of it, probably the worst aspect to name it after. If you had called it aggro management (or something else more defining) you would have a much clearer basis of explanation and would be able to explain that armour sharing is just one aspect of it.

Hazeclaw, on 07 March 2020 - 04:10 PM, said:

we need to open up an MWO dictionary thread where prototrollis and vontrollbait can argue for hundreds of pages about every term used in the game

2nd!

Personally I say take this back to the Nascar thread where we can go in eternal circles until the second coming of Bruce.

[LordNothing]

idk if you want me to throw my mech away so your poorly thought out strategy can fail less catastrophically, then no. i dont care if you give your armor away with an eye dropper, but you had better be fighting the enemy, doing significant damage, securing kills. thats what im doing with my armor. what i dont like are those people who wait till half the team is dead to participate in the fight and then go "boo hoo hoo, bunch of leeroys, stupid team". if you are one of those then you deserve to lose.

Edited by LordNothing, 07 March 2020 - 04:28 PM.

[Prototelis]

VonBruinwald, on 07 March 2020 - 04:13 PM, said:

Armour sharing doesn't imply giving it away for free.

Yes, it does. As evidenced by the very common way in which OP depicted "armor sharing." Which is moving up to eat **** for no reason.

Quote

Really the concept you're trying to grasp at is a meta-strategy, armour sharing is one aspect of it, probably the worst aspect to name it after.

Really the concept you don't grasp, is this is risk management strategy that revolves around the primary resource in which all players on every team can contribute; health, which includes the sum total of both armor, structure, and careful management of the two in order to preserve firepower and fight attrition.

Mech health is directly related to firepower; a mech with no or little health contributes none or little firepower. As a match goes on and your health pool becomes lower, thus your available pool of firepower goes down, which makes fighting attrition more and more difficult.

"Armor sharing" is eating **** for no reason. Health pooling is smartly considering everyone's reserve of health part of a pool to be shared in the careful management of aggro thus preserving firepower for as long as possible.

Edited by Prototelis, 07 March 2020 - 04:29 PM.

[VonBruinwald]

Prototelis, on 07 March 2020 - 04:27 PM, said:

"Armor sharing" is eating **** for no reason. Health pooling is smartly considering everyone's reserverve of health part of a pool to be shared in the careful management of aggro thus preserving firepower for as long as possible.

And we're back to it being the same thing.

Armour sharing for dumb dumbs, Health pooling for smart smart.

Or as I previously said:

Quote

You're argument is "if your team is pushing you can't health pool, 'cause pushing is dumb".

[Prototelis]

VonBruinwald, on 07 March 2020 - 04:30 PM, said:

And we're back to it being the same thing.

And we're back to them being related concepts, without being the same thing.

My argument is not, and has never been, that pushing is bad. Pushing to "share armor" and eating **** for no reason is a bad thing.

Murder balling to share armor in ways that restrict open lanes of fire, (ie most pusha pusha pusha) is a bad thing.

Although health pooling shares some aspects of these strategies, it is distinct in that you aren't eating **** for no reason.

Again, when people are asking you to "share armor," like in the OPs example, they are literally asking you to eat **** for them. IE; "sniping" (this game has no actual concealed shooting, so really thats actually long range trading) is not considered "armor sharing"

It can be considered in health pooling, because it is falls within the scope of health pooling; which is managing aggro through several means by making yourself an available target but precludes eating **** for no reason.

[VonBruinwald]

Prototelis, on 07 March 2020 - 04:36 PM, said:

Again, when people are asking you to "share armor," like in the OPs example, they are literally asking you to eat **** for them. IE; "sniping" (this game has no actual concealed shooting, so really thats actually long range trading) is not considered "armor sharing"

It can be considered in armour sharing, because it is falls within the scope of sharing armour; which is managing aggro through several means by making yourself an available target but precludes eating **** for no reason.

Again, you're saying that it can only be done in a bad way. "OP's example was a bad example, therefore armour sharing is bad. Health pooling good".

If I shout "Pool health" in QP and people huddle together (Group health yo!) and all get hit by a strike does that mean Health Pooling is inherently bad?

You need to take a step back and re-evaluate this strategy, Armour sharing is one aspect but the greater aspect is managing team agrro in various forms. If you re-brand it as aggro management it makes more sense. You can yell "Check aggro" in a game and people will immediate have a clue as to what you're on about. If you're not being shot get your head up, if you are, head down. Nice and simple.

[Prototelis]

VonBruinwald, on 07 March 2020 - 04:49 PM, said:

Again, you're saying that it can only be done in a bad way. "OP's example was a bad example, therefore armour sharing is bad. Health pooling good".

Again, I'm saying it can only be done in that way, because that is literally how the community defines the term. Armor sharing is eating **** for no reason. Which is why "armor sharing" has never referred to effective trading, which is only one aspect of health pooling.

Quote

If I shout "Pool health" in QP and people huddle together (Group health yo!) and all get hit by a strike does that mean Health Pooling is inherently bad?

I've already pointed out a couple of reasons why murder balling is bad. You're reaching and trying to change the subject because you've realized you don't actually have a point to make.

Being exceptional strike bait is not effective health pooling. That is once again, a given element.

Quote

You need to take a step back and re-evaluate this strategy,

You need to take a step back and re-evaluate "armor sharing" and how the term is used in this community in order to arrive at it's definition.

Protip; like many terms and concepts it isn't literally what those two words mean combined.

Armor sharing is eating **** for no reason.

You may also realize I employ this methodology in game through calls and personal action and enjoy a higher win rate than you. As do many of the other strong players (some of which I weak when compared to) whom have been in agreeance with me.

Edit; Health pooling and aggro management aren't concepts I invented, both concepts actually come from MMOs, which isn't to say they aren't also employed in shooting games (for example, counter-strike and it's one life per round format)

Edited by Prototelis, 07 March 2020 - 05:02 PM.

[VonBruinwald]

Prototelis, on 07 March 2020 - 04:59 PM, said:

Again, I'm saying it can only be done in that way, because that is literally how the community defines the term. Armor sharing is eating **** for no reason. Which is why "armor sharing" has never referred to effective trading, which is only one aspect of health pooling.

I've already pointed out a couple of reasons why murder balling is bad. You're reaching and trying to change the subject because you've realized you don't actually have a point to make.

You're typecasting a tactic and recasting it in your own words to try and put a spin on it. "These guys do it, bad! I do it, good!"

I might have to start screaming "Health pool" in QP and making bad tactics up under it's name

Prototelis, on 07 March 2020 - 04:59 PM, said:

You may also realize I employ this methodology in game through calls and personal action and enjoy a higher win rate than you.

Did you just try and stat shame me?

Prototelis, on 07 March 2020 - 04:59 PM, said:

As do many of the other strong players (some of which I weak when compared to) whom have been in agreeance with me.

And then run and hide behind the big kids...


It's nice to see you coming out of your shell again and playing QP on this account instead of hiding behind your super-secret-alt like you were doing. Just try not to sync drop and get your buddies to back you up otherwise it'll spoil the fun when we meet in game.

[Prototelis]

VonBruinwald, on 07 March 2020 - 05:27 PM, said:

You're typecasting a tactic

No, I am not. That is how the community uses and defines the term. There is a reason long range trading isn't considered "armor sharing," it isn't eating **** for no reason.

Quote

I might have to start screaming "Health pool" in QP and making bad tactics up under it's name

This is you admitting they are related yet different concepts. Be sure to explain how effective health pooling actually works and isn't eating **** for no reason.

Quote

Did you just try and stat shame me?

Do you feel ashamed?

Do actual applications of the things I'm discussing make you feel ashamed?

Quote

And then run and hide behind the big kids...

And then move to the back where they can expose later, still contribute effective damage for longer, and practice good health pooling instead of eating **** for no reason.

Quote

It's nice to see you coming out of your shell again and playing QP on this account instead of hiding behind your super-secret-alt like you were doing.

Actually, I played 10 matches of GQ on a friday and my contribution in lights and fast mediums was almost nothing.

Quote

Just try not to sync drop and get your buddies to back you up otherwise it'll spoil the fun when we meet in game.

Again, you changing the subject because you've realized you don't have an actual argument to make.

But since were here;

Sync dropping offers no actual advantage. You cannot guarantee who gets on a given team, and it actively lowers the stats of the people that do it because they spend most of their time pooping on each other. (almost always focusing the strongest players on a team first and cajoling the rest of the team into doing so)

[FRAGTAST1C]

"Sync Dropping! Sync Dropping"

It's only sync dropping 'cause some people you dislike, do it, eh? Sounds like the #MeToo movement

[K O Z A K]

VS

[MTier Slayed Up]

The amount of potato in this thread is on staggering levels of stupid. My two remaining brain cells are trying to cause enough friction to form a thought.

Okie dokie ladies, gents and you floppy biscuits, LISTEN UP!

Armor Sharing/Health Pooling = Deathballing or a firing line. Doesn't matter how you do either or as long as A. Just about everyone is on the same page and B. LRMs are bad.

"But Soap! They're not the same!" Yes they are you Garth Brookes $20 ticket. It's a simple command you can make if you are shot calling. Will every random listen though? Probably not. A 12 man deathball or firing line will absolutely destroy a group of randos if you can get everyone together. Stop arguing the pros and cons of two very simple concepts when they have been in practice for YEARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRS.

"SOAP! What about my uber l33t sniper skills?!" You'll probably die away from the group. I mean, if you get a few people to focus you over your team, you're doing A+ work since A. Now their team is down a couple players just to get rid of you which also means, less FIRE POWA and B. You'll likely have won the game or at least a portion of the drop for FP for everyone without anyone realizing it. Sniping is an A-Okay strat too imo. Selfish? Fo Shore, but if you're doing it right and aren't missing every shot and doing consistent damage throughout the match, then to hell with any nay sayers! You do you boo boo!

"SYNC DROPPING MAKES ME POOPY!" You're dumb.

"But he's only good because of his TEAMSerS!" There's this thing called Solaris where you can 1v1 one another. Go there and prove your salt if you feel confident. "BUT SOLARIS IS STUPID!" Fine you Nickleback fan girl, go start a private lobby and host a 1v1 session.

In CONCLUSION! I am all seeing and all knowing. If you disagree with anything above, you belong in a Coldplay concert with your bi confused child. Don't have a child? Jokes on you, you have one now.

[VonBruinwald]

DrtyDshSoap, on 08 March 2020 - 11:10 AM, said:

Snip.

Well played.

Edited by VonBruinwald, 08 March 2020 - 11:44 AM.

[Knight Captain Morgan]

559 damage dealt, 3 KMDD's and ZERO damage taken. Yes, you can very much contribute by side sniping without armorpoolingsharinghealthingetc

Edited by Knight Captain Morgan, 08 March 2020 - 12:12 PM.