228 replies to this topic

[Brauer]

Kodyn, on 31 March 2020 - 04:14 AM, said:

You know what I never fail to see? Med Lasers. There's ER variants, clan and IS, those freaking things are everywhere. God it's awful, I can't take it anymore, I wish there was a counter to all this Med Laser spam, they're on so many mechs....

Are you serious about this? There's a really good counter to medium lasers. It's called shooting back. Sure MLs, ERMLs, CERMLs, and MPLs are all strong, but they also require the shooter to risk their mech (at relatively close range for MLs and MPLs) and a lot of builds have superior alpha over laser builds. Lasers are strong, but they're definitely not dominant. If anything is in the QP meta it's dakka assaults.


To the topic of LRMs, I rarely use them, but they're also very easy to use, and it takes trivial effort to put up good numbers with lrms in FW or QP. They can be situational because if you get pushed in QP sometimes you're just going to get wrecked, but you can also melt mechs both in LOS and using IDF if you know what you're doing. IDF weapons are fine and deserve to be low-powered because they require virtually no risk. Direct fire lrms also require substantially less skill than anything that requires actual aim, but I'm fine with where they're at because at least the LRMer has to expose and do so for a bit to get and hold a lock.

[CFC Conky]

The OP doesn't mention whether it is a FW or QP issue.

I mostly play QP and the only maps where snipers are a threat is Mining Collective and HPG Manifold. On Mining you might not even call them snipers because they are usually firing down into the center platform for relatively close range and on HPG they are harder to catch if you don't have jj but at least you can hide behind the pillars on the top platform. The rest of the time they are more of an annoyance than anything else, imo.

On some FW siege maps, you can get wrecked by long-range direct fire if you are on the attacking side, but that's just the defenders doing, you know, defender stuff.

Good hunting,
CFC Conky

Edited by CFC Conky, 31 March 2020 - 08:57 AM.

[General Solo]

Indirect Lerms and snipers are different.

The sniper must expose and aim in order to shoot.

The indirect lermer needs no exposure to shoot as locks are provided by team mates who expose themselves on behalf of the indirect lermer.

The lermer risks nothing the sniper risks there own armour.

To counter the sniper you must out trade them, which isn't easy and requires skill. Trading is also best practice in this game fyi.

To counter the indirect Lermer, well no amount of skill can hit a target permanently behind cover, who never exposes it self.

Yes phrasing set to stun.

Also a team mate that never exposes themselves can not draw enemy fire away from team mates.

Snipers do this all day long. Or they get free trades all day long and a massive advantage to their team (as long as they hit targets) if the enemy doesn't even bother to try to return fire.

Which is where the snipers are invulnerable crap comes from. Good snipers are hard to hit, not impossible to hit. Takes skill to out trade a guid trader.

Suppressing locks and spotters can make that lermer totally useless, which is fair, given the ability to obtain locks from team mates.

Edited by OZHomerOZ, 31 March 2020 - 11:14 AM.

[Sniper09121986]

OZHomerOZ, on 31 March 2020 - 10:32 AM, said:

To counter the sniper you must out trade them, which isn't easy and requires kill.

Huh?

Well... technically yes

[General Solo]

Thanks for the heads up
Edited n fixed

Edited by OZHomerOZ, 31 March 2020 - 11:15 AM.

[Dora the Konqueror]

Snipers aka Use your team for cannon fodder.

[VonBruinwald]

Dora the Konqueror, on 31 March 2020 - 11:23 AM, said:

Snipers aka Use your team for cannon fodder.

But there's a difference!

A sniper waits till someone else has locked the target so they can pre-align their reticle before firing. Much like lurmers.

The key difference is a sniper has to expose himself to shoot at the target, the target who is already engaged with the guy who initiated the lock.

See, it's completely different.

Neither a sniper of lurmer shares their armour, but at least a lurmer has the advantage of drawing enemy lights to his location with smoke signals.

[Brauer]

VonBruinwald, on 31 March 2020 - 11:45 AM, said:

But there's a difference!

A sniper waits till someone else has locked the target so they can pre-align their reticle before firing. Much like lurmers.

The key difference is a sniper has to expose himself to shoot at the target, the target who is already engaged with the guy who initiated the lock.

See, it's completely different.

Neither a sniper of lurmer shares their armour, but at least a lurmer has the advantage of drawing enemy lights to his location with smoke signals.

Why do people constantly think that people trading pre-aim using other people's locks?

1) Sure, why not do that if you can?
2) often you already know where the enemy is, or actually can take a power position and play whack-a-mole rather than poke-locate.target-fire.

Also, why the heck is someone holding a hard lock on a target anyway? You should be abusing cover!!! There are some cases where a build requires long-term exposure (AC2s, LRMs, RACs), but more often in QP people standing in the open holding a hard lock are just getting blasted and sacrificing armor and a free kill for minimal gain. Standing in the open and eating damage for free is not admirable. Plenty of non-sniper builds should not just be standing in the open. Like MPL builds, UAC5/10 dakka builds, mid-range laser vomit, plenty of SRM or MRM builds, etc. Using cover is a key skill and practice across the game.

Stop saying it's admirable to stand in the open and die.

[General Solo]

But there's a difference!

Dora the Konqueror, on 31 March 2020 - 11:23 AM, said:

Snipers aka Use your team for cannon fodder.

Only when they do stupeed stuff, apart from that its mostly over watch, map control with some PITA for dessert. Mmm Desert!

VonBruinwald, on 31 March 2020 - 11:45 AM, said:

But there's a difference!

A sniper waits till someone else has locked the target so they can pre-align their reticle before firing. Much like lurmers.

The key difference is a sniper has to expose himself to shoot at the target, the target who is already engaged with the guy who initiated the lock.

See, it's completely different.

Good idea, I do that at times, I call it situational awareness!
Also I can hit targets with out a lock coz I have developed a skill called aim. True Story.

VonBruinwald, on 31 March 2020 - 11:45 AM, said:

See, it's completely different.

Neither a sniper of lurmer shares their armour, but at least a lurmer has the advantage of drawing enemy lights to his location with smoke signals.

True but a sniper also draws enemy fire, do indirect lerms draw fire? I think not

Also if a sniper is ignored at the least they gets free precision shots due to enemy inattention, were as lermers fire is a bit spread at best. Unless direct fire in which case you don't need my lock do you?

Edited by OZHomerOZ, 31 March 2020 - 12:43 PM.

[General Solo]

Brauer, on 31 March 2020 - 12:35 PM, said:

Why do people constantly think that people trading pre-aim using other people's locks?

Envy mostly.

[thievingmagpi]

VonBruinwald, on 31 March 2020 - 05:00 AM, said:

But PGI in true PGI fashion have done the equivalent of a KDK-3 on LRMS.

lololololol

[VonBruinwald]

Brauer, on 31 March 2020 - 12:35 PM, said:

Why do people constantly think that people trading pre-aim using other people's locks?

Because it's quid pro quo.

The snipers belittle the lurmers using the worst examples of the lrm playstyle. Hiding 1000m back, leaching locks, relying on team mates to meatshield, etc.

So the counter is to use the worst examples of how snipers play. Hiding 1000m back, leaching locks, relying on team mates to meatshield, etc.


It's a generally accepted insult that lurmers leach locks so it rolls off their backs, they're used to it. Snipers on the other hand aren't used to the reciprocal so they tend to take it more personally, either that or it hitting a little too close to home for some of the "good" snipers out there. Not that they'd admit it of course.

[Brauer]

VonBruinwald, on 31 March 2020 - 01:35 PM, said:

Because it's quid pro quo.

The snipers belittle the lurmers using the worst examples of the lrm playstyle. Hiding 1000m back, leaching locks, relying on team mates to meatshield, etc.

So the counter is to use the worst examples of how snipers play. Hiding 1000m back, leaching locks, relying on team mates to meatshield, etc.


It's a generally accepted insult that lurmers leach locks so it rolls off their backs, they're used to it. Snipers on the other hand aren't used to the reciprocal so they tend to take it more personally, either that or it hitting a little too close to home for some of the "good" snipers out there. Not that they'd admit it of course.

The worst examples of lrm playstyle are the playstyle adhered to by most lrmers, including the most outspoken lrmers on this forum. And even the direct fire lrm playstyle requires minimal skill as compared to other playstyles and weapon systems in the game. Whereas, this "pre-targeting" bogeyman is mostly in people's heads. Sure, you can do it, but few (if any) players exclusively wait to lock a red dorito before popping out to trade, whereas the majority of lrmers don't even pop out to lrm.

Your "counter" is really just a made up bogeyman and again ignored the fact that it's not generally a good idea to stand in the open and eat fire to pointlessly hold a hard lock. Bad play is not somehow more admirable, honorable, or moral than actually attempting to use cover, inflict meaningful damage, and drive a win.

Before you try to argue I'm one of these snipers you think you're triggering, I mostly play relatively aggressive builds and playstyles in QP including brawl piranhas, dakka assaults, dakka heavies, and brawl mediums. I do on occasion take a triple Peep Veagle or an IS laser vom heavy, but I still tend to have trouble restraining my urge to get in close (while still abusing cover of course!).

[MTier Slayed Up]

Okie dokie. Let's kill this duplicate thread after I go over everything that's different between a potato that can't aim vs a potato that can aim.

LRMers -

• Sits behind the team.
  
• Wants others to expose themselves and to hold locks.
  
• Hopes there is a suicidal light that tosses a UAV.
  
• Orgasms for NARC Stealth Ravens (Z Paradox) because now they just have to hold down one button.
  
• Can't aim if their life depended on it. This is readily apparent if they're last alive. Assuming of course they brought something other than LRMs.
  
• Spreads more damage than a peanut butter sandwich.
  
• Complains about being left behind.
  
• Will do good in 1 out 10 games, then say that LRMs are great, ignoring the other 9 games where they did 100-200 damage and didn't contribute much of anything. Other pure LRMers will then oodle over the screenshot and share a similar story about how their 1 in 10 games was also similar.
  
• Always votes Polar Highlands whenever possible.

L33t Snipers -

• Sits behind the team, usually anticipating a NASCAR. Far back enough to be a nuisance but not too far to where damage is mitigated.
  
• Pin point accuracy = more effective damage.
  
• Doesn't rely on the team for anything. Everything is visual.
  
• Can 1v1, 1v2, or maybe 1v3 depending on the build and skill of the pilot.
  
• Sending a lance+ to deal with sniper usually results in a loss for the team that wants said sniper dead.
  
• Usually more consistent in being good and or effective.
  
• Exposes himself and actively shooting throughout most of the game.
  
• Has the ability to call in God tier Arty/Air strikes.
  
• Has the sick enjoyment of legging LRMers when they attempt to NASCAR.

Here's a short summary if you didn't want to read any of that:

LRMers spread damage, aren't usually effective with the exception of maybe 2 maps and a mech requirment.

Snipers are pin point, usually effective on just about every map you throw them on, and can carry a game if need be.

[JediPanther]

Scout Derek, on 30 March 2020 - 11:53 PM, said:

I don't know, maybe because sniping and hitting your targets is actually worth something in terms of skill? Meanwhile anyone can go use lrms because all you have to do is get a Lock-on, and shoot. Same with ATMs.

And it's good you can't lock onto targets 1K Meters away anymore with LRMs, that in itself is cancerous. Don't even mention 1K Meter ATMs... that itself is a joke.

Complain more though, please.

You can when you build your mech right and have direct los. You can just go testing grounds and do it yourself. Any proper lrm boat is going to be rocking full sensors and all the gear to get their own locks. Clans make it far easier than is due to their weight advantage over is.

[denAirwalkerrr]

Vellron2005, on 30 March 2020 - 11:42 PM, said:

So, if you guys remember, LRMs used to get people to say thinks that basically boil down to "it's not fair that people get to sit in cover and hit things far away without getting hit back"

So LRMs got nerfed into the ground and turned into something.. less...

But how was that different from the extreme long-range spam we have now?

How is hitting people from behind your spawn area fair?

How is hitting people from 1000+ range and taking a torso in a few seconds, and not getting any return fire (except from a likewise snipe-spammer) fair?

If you're a LRM user, or even an ATM user, you can't lock, can't target, and usually, even if you dumb fire, can't hit a sniper that's cutting you in half from 1000+ meters away. Not to mention other weapons that aren't extreme range.

So the game has degenerated into a glorified snipe-off..

How is that fair? How is that even fun?

I think that if PGI has ANY intention of keeping this game alive and kicking, they HAVE TO nerf this absurd snipe spam.

Exactly how they do it, I'm not gonna suggest. But this is getting ridiculous.

If only somebody at PGI actually cared about this game anymore..

Edited by denAirwalkerrr, 31 March 2020 - 02:22 PM.

[Brauer]

JediPanther, on 31 March 2020 - 02:18 PM, said:

You can when you build your mech right and have direct los. You can just go testing grounds and do it yourself. Any proper lrm boat is going to be rocking full sensors and all the gear to get their own locks. Clans make it far easier than is due to their weight advantage over is.

Lrms aren't that good at extreme range though, they're severely outclassed by erll and erppc in that bracket, so why build for extreme range?

Edit: barring an effective narcer on your team.

Edited by Brauer, 31 March 2020 - 02:25 PM.

[ghost1e]

just go git gud at aim instead of lurming

[VonBruinwald]

Brauer, on 31 March 2020 - 02:25 PM, said:

Lrms aren't that good at extreme range though, they're severely outclassed by erll and erppc in that bracket, so why build for extreme range?

Edit: barring an effective narcer on your team.

He didn't say anything about extreme range. That's you projecting a worst case example on to his argument.

Remember the quid pro quo.

[JediPanther]

Brauer, on 31 March 2020 - 02:25 PM, said:

Lrms aren't that good at extreme range though, they're severely outclassed by erll and erppc in that bracket, so why build for extreme range?

Edit: barring an effective narcer on your team.

I build my lrms for max range due to how nascar goes. Depending on the speed of my lrm mech,position,movement of enemy etc it is easier to have the option to lrm long distance. I might be focusing on lrming an assault a teammate is in the middle of a brawl then notice another lock on a more damaged target and switch to it to eliminate that target then resume on the prior target. They might be at 500m or more out apart.

Most of my lrm mechs are self reliant with a few back up lasers. The only dedicated "pure" lrm mech I run which runs only lrms is my troll-ing cptl-a1 which does not have any lasers for back ups but I can easily put in a few srm/ssrm and ammo. Any lrm-er who runs only lrms deserves to be enemy punching bag in qp/fw. You get one slot for strikes or a uav so you might have that one strike. The funny part about the game is that pgi considers tag and ams with ammo a weapon.

For all the complaints about lrms no one ever complans that when they first get a mech it might very well have lrms on it stock and demands that pgi make all mechs with missiles be any missile but lrm stock. Don't like lrm don't use it. Don't like getting hit by lrm then use the many many counters of which there are 40 or more at last count as I made that thread which people listed all the counters to lrm in the game.