129 replies to this topic

[letir]

Hazeclaw, on 17 April 2020 - 11:33 AM, said:

We've been over this, LRMs are not artillery, this game has artillery, and it's called artillery.

LRMs are a force subtractor. LRM mechs on your team reduce the number of effective fighting mechs your team has, they reduce the number of mechs pooling health, they reduce the number of mechs able to fire instantly (before the enemy is able to take cover) and accurately.

Take a freaking Archer and share armor on frontline, be effective fighter and fire at enemies 24/7 because you can lob missiles over low cover.

Why when people talking about "LRM mech" it's always most useless backliner who running mech without support weapons and TAG from the back line? There is plenty of "direct fire warriors" who cannot hit anything and diving straight into crossfire - they are not "sharing armor".


This is LRM mech:

Edited by letir, 17 April 2020 - 01:23 PM.

[John Bronco]

Because cowardly leach lockers are the only LRMers you ever actually see in a game.

[letir]

BlaizerP, on 17 April 2020 - 01:30 PM, said:

Because cowardly leach lockers are the only LRMers you ever actually see in a game.

I have seen double gauss Thantos and Marauder MII with stealth armor, sitting in some camping position entire game and "sniping" damage against pubs.

Should we start holy war against gauss cannons? Stealth armor?

Edited by letir, 17 April 2020 - 01:39 PM.

[Captain Caveman DE]

letir, on 17 April 2020 - 01:21 PM, said:

This is LRM mech:

yeah, and to cut it short: this is NOT what Vel and others are doing. so there ya go.

btw: still no news on Skillron2005, narcing savior of the world.

[The pessimistic optimist]

If you are playing LRM right you are playing aggressively and get a lot of your own locks but yes people hold locks. I like too get as close as I can when using LRM even ride close to the edge at 200 meters

Edited by SirSmokes, 17 April 2020 - 02:34 PM.

[RickySpanish]

letir, on 17 April 2020 - 01:39 PM, said:

I have seen double gauss Thantos and Marauder MII with stealth armor, sitting in some camping position entire game and "sniping" damage against pubs.

Should we start holy war against gauss cannons? Stealth armor?

Yes, those builds suck hard as well.

[Konril]

Hazeclaw, on 17 April 2020 - 11:33 AM, said:

We've been over this, LRMs are not artillery, this game has artillery, and it's called artillery.

LRMs are a force subtractor. LRM mechs on your team reduce the number of effective fighting mechs your team has, they reduce the number of mechs pooling health, they reduce the number of mechs able to fire instantly (before the enemy is able to take cover) and accurately...

Time for a bit or mathematical trivia. An LRM 15 or 20 is set to a spread of 5.7 with IS tech or 6.05 with Clan tech. The smaller LRM 10 and 5 launchers take 1 off the spread number. (4.7 IS, 5.05 Clan). Also having direct line of sight to your target takes another 1 off of the spread number.​ When Artemis is active, missile spread is only 70% of what it usually is. So a loadout of say 3 LRM 10 launchers with Artemis fired directly gets down to a 2.59 (IS) or 2.84 (Clan) spread. While using LRM 10s may sound like a waste of heat and tonnage, especially with Artemis attached, the odd truth is that the setup is just scarily accurate.

One side effect, with direct line of sight, your LRMs lock on like Streaks even up to your maximum sensor range. That means I get a lock in 1.5 seconds if ECM isn't fouling it. One other side effect, if I can see them, they can see and shoot me too. Oops, we are now pooling armor. Horror of horrors!

We've been over this. LRMs are not bad weapons anymore. So why continue to blame the weapon for bad pilots?

[cougurt]

VonBruinwald, on 17 April 2020 - 07:17 AM, said:

Are we comparing our average MS to that of CoD players now?

we're comparing competency of the average player to that of any other competitive game. even being generous and ignoring the mechanical skill component, the average MWO player tends to have a poor understanding of strategy and often basic game mechanics.

[K O Z A K]

Konril, on 17 April 2020 - 04:41 PM, said:

Time for a bit or mathematical trivia. An LRM 15 or 20 is set to a spread of 5.7 with IS tech or 6.05 with Clan tech. The smaller LRM 10 and 5 launchers take 1 off the spread number. (4.7 IS, 5.05 Clan). Also having direct line of sight to your target takes another 1 off of the spread number.​ When Artemis is active, missile spread is only 70% of what it usually is. So a loadout of say 3 LRM 10 launchers with Artemis fired directly gets down to a 2.59 (IS) or 2.84 (Clan) spread. While using LRM 10s may sound like a waste of heat and tonnage, especially with Artemis attached, the odd truth is that the setup is just scarily accurate.

One side effect, with direct line of sight, your LRMs lock on like Streaks even up to your maximum sensor range. That means I get a lock in 1.5 seconds if ECM isn't fouling it. One other side effect, if I can see them, they can see and shoot me too. Oops, we are now pooling armor. Horror of horrors!

We've been over this. LRMs are not bad weapons anymore. So why continue to blame the weapon for bad pilots?

Time for a bit of the reality of mwo drops. I have seen aggressive LRM players, they do exist, pretty much all of the ones I've seen are really good overall players that don't normally play LRMs. ALL....I mean.....ALL the players that mostly play LRMs are only aggressive LRM players on the forums, but never in the game. I have yet to meet a player who claims they are an LRM specialist who actually "moves with the team, shares armor and gets their own locks", maybe this unicorn is still out there and I just haven't seen them.

[Swamp Ass MkII]

I have found, on my MCII-4 to run 2 15's w/ Artemis, and 2 Streak 4's. I tend to get into LOS more often than not... And many maps were I can lob LRM's over the short hill... Especially @ Theta on Frozen City... Yeah, get close enough, I'll lob some straks as well... It's pretty effective. Clan Probes also are needed on this loadout so you can lock something at less than 120m?

Anyhoot, I am stepping away from ATM's... They are great on some maps, but, really suck on others...

[Captain Caveman DE]

Swamp *** MkII, on 17 April 2020 - 10:06 PM, said:

I have found, on my MCII-4 to run 2 15's w/ Artemis, and 2 Streak 4's. I tend to get into LOS more often than not... And many maps were I can lob LRM's over the short hill... Especially @ Theta on Frozen City... Yeah, get close enough, I'll lob some straks as well... It's pretty effective. Clan Probes also are needed on this loadout so you can lock something at less than 120m?

Anyhoot, I am stepping away from ATM's... They are great on some maps, but, really suck on others...

some well meant advice: if you insist on running the MCII-4, make it an ATM-boat instead of your lrm/streak mix.
and there is NO map ATMs suck on. maybe you have to adjust your playstyle a bit here and there, that's all.

4x ERPPC also work fine on it, but that's more for faction (and not beginner-friendly).

Edited by Captain Caveman DE, 18 April 2020 - 06:25 AM.

[Konril]

I'm a unicorn now? What do I say?

I'm certain I said something on page 2 along the likes of:

Konril, on 11 April 2020 - 09:34 AM, said:

Okay, time for a small confession. I am a Tier 2 LRM player.

I have found over time that as the player's tier level goes up, players just get worse and worse at holding locks for their allies. In fact, even knowing the pain I can't seem to hold locks very well myself when I'm not in a missile boat. So I have had to adapt by being aggressive and getting my own locks when possible. While I actually prefer using 3 LRM 10s with a NARC instead of Artemis, I have long since learned that peeking out to get my own locks, not being afraid of taking some hits, and staying close to the team is the way to win. I won't stay hidden behind a hill until one of my NARCs hit something, and as a consequence the whole "share armor" argument hasn't been able to stick to me, at least.

Some of my current favorite mechs include:

STORMCROW SCR-D: 96 matches played, 61 wins, 35 losses, 1.74 W/L, 65 kills, 51 deaths, 1.27 K/D, 30,133 damage done, 194,384 XP earned, 11:12:27 time played.
The Stormcrow uses 3 LRM 10, NARC, tag, and 3 ER small lasers.

SPIDER SDR-5D: 117 matches played, 71 wins, 46 losses, 1.54 W/L, 56 kills, 57 deaths, 0.98 K/D, 20,995 damage done, 221,632 XP earned, 13:05:41 time played.
Using a standard PPC, tag, ECM, and a couple of jump jets.

SUMMONER SMN-B:143 matches played, 82 wins, 61 losses, 1.34 W/L, 114 kills, 76 deaths, 1.50 K.D, 53,978 damage done, 210,540 XP earned, 16:49:09 time played.
Using 3 LRM 10s, NARC, 1 Streak 2, and 2 ER small lasers.

CYCLOPS CP-10-Q: 112 matches played, 64 wins, 47 losses, 1.36 W/L, 86 kills, 73 deaths, 1.18 K/D, 44,329 damage done, 217,345 XP earned, 12:47:35 time played.
Using 3 LRM 10s, NARC, tag, 3 Streak 2, and 2 medium pulse lasers. That is 10.5 tons of backup weapons and (2 tons of Streak) ammo. But it is a satisfyingly nasty surprise to any Piranha that thinks it's a good idea to sneak up behind the assaults to chew on back armor with machine guns.

ORION ON1-VA: 35 matches played, 20 wins, 15 losses, 1.33 W/L, 19 kills, 23 deaths, 0.83 K/D, 12,232 damage done, 73,246 XP earned, 03:43:27 time played.
Using 3 Artemis LRM 10s, NARC, 2 medium pulse lasers, 1 light machine gun. This one has recently replaced my Jagermech missile boat as the bit of extra tonnage has proven really useful.

KIT FOX KFX-PRIME(I): 179 matches played, 104 wins, 75 losses, 1.39 W/L, 122 kills, 96 deaths, 1.27 K/D, 51,672 damage done, 278,901 XP earned, 1 day 00:09:07 time played.
Using 1 LRM 10, 2 LRM 5, Narc, and an ECM. No actual backup weapons. Probably the lightest successful missile boat ever.

I really don't have to look far to find a good LRM specialist player. At least according to my stats page, I am one.

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

Konril, on 18 April 2020 - 07:27 AM, said:

I'm a unicorn now? What do I say?

I'm certain I said something on page 2 along the likes of:


I have found over time that as the player's tier level goes up, players just get worse and worse at holding locks for their allies. In fact, even knowing the pain I can't seem to hold locks very well myself when I'm not in a missile boat. So I have had to adapt by being aggressive and getting my own locks when possible. While I actually prefer using 3 LRM 10s with a NARC instead of Artemis, I have long since learned that peeking out to get my own locks, not being afraid of taking some hits, and staying close to the team is the way to win. I won't stay hidden behind a hill until one of my NARCs hit something, and as a consequence the whole "share armor" argument hasn't been able to stick to me, at least.

Some of my current favorite mechs include:

STORMCROW SCR-D: 96 matches played, 61 wins, 35 losses, 1.74 W/L, 65 kills, 51 deaths, 1.27 K/D, 30,133 damage done, 194,384 XP earned, 11:12:27 time played.
The Stormcrow uses 3 LRM 10, NARC, tag, and 3 ER small lasers.

SPIDER SDR-5D: 117 matches played, 71 wins, 46 losses, 1.54 W/L, 56 kills, 57 deaths, 0.98 K/D, 20,995 damage done, 221,632 XP earned, 13:05:41 time played.
Using a standard PPC, tag, ECM, and a couple of jump jets.

SUMMONER SMN-B:143 matches played, 82 wins, 61 losses, 1.34 W/L, 114 kills, 76 deaths, 1.50 K.D, 53,978 damage done, 210,540 XP earned, 16:49:09 time played.
Using 3 LRM 10s, NARC, 1 Streak 2, and 2 ER small lasers.

CYCLOPS CP-10-Q: 112 matches played, 64 wins, 47 losses, 1.36 W/L, 86 kills, 73 deaths, 1.18 K/D, 44,329 damage done, 217,345 XP earned, 12:47:35 time played.
Using 3 LRM 10s, NARC, tag, 3 Streak 2, and 2 medium pulse lasers. That is 10.5 tons of backup weapons and (2 tons of Streak) ammo. But it is a satisfyingly nasty surprise to any Piranha that thinks it's a good idea to sneak up behind the assaults to chew on back armor with machine guns.

ORION ON1-VA: 35 matches played, 20 wins, 15 losses, 1.33 W/L, 19 kills, 23 deaths, 0.83 K/D, 12,232 damage done, 73,246 XP earned, 03:43:27 time played.
Using 3 Artemis LRM 10s, NARC, 2 medium pulse lasers, 1 light machine gun. This one has recently replaced my Jagermech missile boat as the bit of extra tonnage has proven really useful.

KIT FOX KFX-PRIME(I): 179 matches played, 104 wins, 75 losses, 1.39 W/L, 122 kills, 96 deaths, 1.27 K/D, 51,672 damage done, 278,901 XP earned, 1 day 00:09:07 time played.
Using 1 LRM 10, 2 LRM 5, Narc, and an ECM. No actual backup weapons. Probably the lightest successful missile boat ever.

I really don't have to look far to find a good LRM specialist player. At least according to my stats page, I am one.

first off: I don't wanna sound mean; also I'll leave out the spider K/D etc and just focus on the ONE thing lurms should do well: raw damage-numbers.
no here are yours.

mech /matches /dmg /Dmg on average
STORMCROW 96 30133 313,89
SUMMONER 143 53978 377,47
CYCLOPS 112 44329 395,79
ORION 35 12232 349,49
KIT FOX 179 51672 288,67


so..

Edited by Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, 18 April 2020 - 09:01 AM.

[Swamp Ass MkII]

Captain Caveman DE, on 18 April 2020 - 05:26 AM, said:

some well meant advice: if you insist on running the MCII-4, make it an ATM-boat instead of your lrm/streak mix.
and there is NO map ATMs suck on. maybe you have to adjust your playstyle a bit here and there, that's all.

4x ERPPC also work fine on it, but that's more for faction (and not beginner-friendly).

I can't hit the broad side of a barn with PPC... I do go back and forth between ATM and LRM... But, I can't boat anything, it's just me... Example, I can't boat my MCII-B, too plain... lol

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

Swamp *** MkII, on 18 April 2020 - 09:07 AM, said:

I can't hit the broad side of a barn with PPC... I do go back and forth between ATM and LRM... But, I can't boat anything, it's just me... Example, I can't boat my MCII-B, too plain... lol

takes practice and isnt that great in QP anyway @4x PPC

for the atm-mcat: 2 weapon groups of 2x atm12, 1 weapon group for a tag, 1 for your supportlasers;
close distance to the 2dmg-bracket, hold the tag-group, and let the atms fire till you're close to an overheat or there's no opposition left. always close in for the 3dmg-bracket. it's that easy

you're fast enough to stay with the herd, so makes you live easier if you stay with em while rotatoe-ing. you won't even need the lasers normally, but you have the tonnage to bring them; never use them unless you're cold (which you never should be) or somebody underruns your 3dmg-bracket.

Edited by Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, 18 April 2020 - 09:30 AM.

[Konril]

Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, on 18 April 2020 - 08:57 AM, said:

first off: I don't wanna sound mean; also I'll leave out the spider K/D etc and just focus on the ONE thing lurms should do well: raw damage-numbers.
no here are yours.

Not mean, but is lacking in context a bit.

I mentioned my Jagermechs earlier so here are the stats of my two Jagermechs, and a couple more no LRM builds.

JAGERMECH JM6-A: 114 matches played, 63 wins, 51 losses, 1.24 W/L, 94 kills, 79 deaths, 1.19 K/D, 42,583 total damage, 177,659 XP earned. 12:11:09 time played.
My A variant has a loadout of 3 standard LRM 10, NARC, 2 medium pulse lasers, and 2 light machine guns. It's "retired", AKA gathering dust in a spare mechbay. Instead I am now using the Orion.

But here is the sister:
JAGERMECH JM6-S: 129 matches played, 70 wins, 59 losses, 1.19 W/L, 113 kills, 86 deaths, 1.31 K/D, 46,431 total damage, 201,177 XP earhed, 13:08:52 time played.
Last loadout was 4 AC/2 guns, tag, and nothing else, but other loadouts it has used include a 3 Ultra AC/5 setup, and a 3 Rotary AC/2 build. No missiles at all and no hardpoints for missiles anyway. But you can see the performance yourself.

JAGERMECH JM6-A: 114 matches played, 42,583 total damage, so 373.54 average.
JAGERMECH JM6-S: 129 matches played, 46,431 total damage, so 359.93 average.

My most played energy mech is the Thunderbolt, and it looks like this:
THUNDERBOLT TDR-9S: 62 matches played, 31 wins, 31 losses, 1.00 W/L, 34 kills, 46 deaths, 0.74 K/D, 13,263 damage done, 73,701 XP earned, 06:32:21 time played.
It has an ER PPC, 4 medium lasers, tag, NARC, 2 AMS, and as many double heat sinks as can fit in the standard structure. (Which means the best I could do if i removed the NARC would be to swap the standard lasers for pulse lasers.)
62 matches played and 13,263 damage done means 213.92 average damage. I know, quite miserable. Although it still my most played energy mech, it is also one of the ones "retired."

And because I also mentioned it before:
DIRE WOLF DWF-B: 98 matches played, 37 wins, 61 losses, 0.61 W/L, 45 kills, 75 deaths, 0.60 K/D, 28,806 total damage, 103,149 XP earned, 07:22:48 time played.
Loadouts have included just about every mix of clan autocannon that can fit. But I just haven't been able to make this thing work, and not for lack of trying. I might just be killing my overall rating by trying, too.

Anyway, the damage numbers are important as they have the biggest influence on your match score and therefore your end-of-match pay. But at the same time, they are also a very deceptive measure of performance. Accurately coring an opponent's center torso is a lot quicker than chewing through both arms, a leg, and a side torso on your way to the center. Taking opponents out of the match early can be a big influence on whether the match is won or lost. But at the same time, accurately coring someone's center torso generates a much lower damage score than someone who chews through the rest of the mech first. Isn't that a bit weird?

Personally, I like winning more than I like putting the "I" in "team." So the W/L stat is just much more important to me. In that context, I really am doing better with LRMs than I am with direct fire builds, and I am at least doing well enough to get to Tier 2. So what else should I say?

[thievingmagpi]

Konril, on 18 April 2020 - 07:27 AM, said:

At least according to my stats page, I am one.

Umm.....

[Omniseed]

Humble Dexter, on 08 April 2020 - 10:05 PM, said:

Hello friends,


Plz hold locks.

no

[Swamp Ass MkII]

I know wthey take up space, and weight, but when I still like my ATM/Streak combo, often I get those pesky lights under me... We all know how that can go... I have found a combo of Active Probe, and MkII or III targeting computer actually works really well... Combined with Med Pulse it actually does alot to pick up my damage... I guess the added bonus from the Laser ranger, and crit mods... Who knows, it works. It also increases lock on times, and when LOS its fracking awsome... When I can't lock due to whatever reason, (over the probes range), dumb fire time. Too bad I can't dumb fire streaks... Guess it be overkill?

[Toast3r]

Konril, on 18 April 2020 - 07:27 AM, said:

I really don't have to look far to find a good LRM specialist player. At least according to my stats page, I am one.