200 replies to this topic

[FRAGTAST1C]

Axys Rageborn, on 18 April 2020 - 04:14 AM, said:

Quick play = Solo
Group = Groups + Solo (who opted in)

So many of us have suggested that for so long.

PotatoCrunch, on 19 April 2020 - 06:26 PM, said:

Regarding faction play, I think that people should have the ability to call a surrender vote after the first 12 kills.

Really? Do you have any idea how this is going to be used?

[James Saxon]

So far, I have been dropping with 2-men group and it is working. It did take some time to get into a game though, but it is better than never at this point for group queue.
I believe what actually made it work for me in relatively short period of time is because there was a pre-made 8 men on the other side, making it already half way done on the queue.

Hopefully these few but working group drops give meaningful data to you guys.

[Kotzi]

Easiest solution, Soloplayers opt into GQ. Even more possibility to close buckets. Less waiting time as the MM can fill almost every number of teams. But its not like people have said that before...

[Gagis]

FRAGTAST1C, on 19 April 2020 - 07:56 PM, said:

Really? Do you have any idea how this is going to be used?

It would probably have to be something like a 2/3rds majority vote to counteract ******** being ********, but would be a massive quality of life improvement if implemented.

PGI please do it.

[Vellron2005]

Tried dropping 8 vs 8 yesterday in a 2-man group.

Was surprised by how quickly matches were found. Must have been lots of people testing.

Other than that, I found the experience to be very reminiscent of Scouting, but on a slightly larger scale. LRMs were somewhat useful, but since most other people came with "in-yo-face" brawlers, had to switch to Scouting tactics and builds.

I think this might settle down once the hype passes.

Personally, I think it offers a good twist to quick play, and I'm OK with 8 vs 8 for now.

TBH I'm just happy that a group of two can get a non-faction match :/

I'm positively surprised that ANYTHING is being done in MWO..

Edited by Vellron2005, 20 April 2020 - 03:24 AM.

[D U N E]

I want to agree with some other players, really nice to see 8V8 que, just please for the love of this games lifespan never combine GQ with the Solos unless it's an opt-in ability. I am part of the player base that would inadvertently cause the death of both of these ques if the majority of pugs aren't given the ability to leave the higher skill concentrations.

Quick play is infuriating for me when my pugs run away and do some of their own crap - but like literal pugs, they don't know what's going on and to be fair, I think they enjoy it. Sprinkle in 1-2 good players per match-up and that means they have a chance to mess around against another 10. It's infuriating as hell for me, but that is the state of that que. Some people rally them up to form basic tactics, but that que is dumb fun. If you aren't trying to win, you can mess around and do silly stuff.

Group que is going to turn into the higher skill que, there is an issue with insufficient ques with the 12 man structure. Personally I like the system the max group size of 8 players, but if the system implemented group splitting - such as a popup comes up after you have waited a minute in a 8 man - It offers to split your group into a 4v4 so you can still get a matchup and your time isn't wasted. Though make it the group has to be an even number, and that you need at least 6 mechs.
People in the LFG que should be able to class as opt-ins to fill out group que matches if there is one group for either side.

The main issue was waiting for 10 minutes and getting nothing, what could truly help is a system that enables 6-8 players the ability to get drops even if they are the only ones playing at the time. By removing the uncertainty of getting a drop and not making people resort to lobbies, you'd have a larger player base to fill out the ques and make the game more lively. No one likes wasting their time in futility.

Like so far 8v8 is a great system and I truly cannot be happier to see this from a game I had presumed was made fully stagnant. A few more pokes in the right direction like this one could make the live again. - Just, if you think about complete group/solo merge, just remember it only requires 4 players to kill 1 que - let the spuds have their mindless fun, as much as I complain about them, they are part of the reason I can have fun every 3 games.

Edited by D U N E, 20 April 2020 - 03:32 AM.

[Alreech]

Solo Players in 8 vs 8 Group Que is IMHO a no-go.
MWO has a looking for group function for players who want to join group play.
The problem is that most goups don't bother to invite players from the LFG - one of the reasons is that any group size from 2 - 8 players can start matchmaking, so why invite strangers to fill up the group?
Fixing the group size to join a match to 4 or 8 is an obvious solution for that problem - and a solution most players don't want.

Small Groups (2 Players) in Solo 12 vs 12 is also no solution.
As long as there are 6 Player groups allowed in Group Play the 2 Player Groups are needed for the matchmaker to fill up the teams.

Edited by Alreech, 20 April 2020 - 04:43 AM.

[C337Skymaster]

Addressing several points:

With regards to a "resignation" option in Faction Play, yes, it has a high potential for abuse, but on the other hand, people "resign" themselves to defeat, anyway, throw their 4 'mechs away and quit as soon as they're permadead, without responding to or participating in any of the tactics the rest of the team might be trying to employ. If it requires a majority vote to be approved, or even a unanimous vote, that would definitely limit the abuse factor, but it still won't stop individuals from reinforcing themselves to death and quitting anyway, which accomplishes the same thing, but takes longer. Personally, I'd love to see the drop deck replaced with fully-functioning in-game repair bays and destructible buildings. That way, if it's an even fight, the front-line 'mechs that are getting damaged can retreat, repair, and return, and hold the line while the next wave of 'mechs returns for repair, but if it's a stomp, you only have to stomp through 12 'mechs and you're done. Obviously we'd need to revert to QP weight limits so we don't have 12 Annihilators providing the defense (as much fun as those drops tend to be).

With regards to 2-man groups in the solo-queue, maybe the group queue DOES need to be forcibly restricted to 4- or 8-man groups. Group Queue being the super-competitive environment that it invariably becomes, 90% of 2-man groups are the dedicated player and his brand-new or super-casual buddy that just want to mess around and have a good time without being super-serious about the game. I REALLY want my wife to play this with me, but she doesn't like games to begin with, and gets easily frustrated. She will NOT play if she is not guaranteed to be on my team, and also be placed against players with similarly non-existent skills. That ain't group queue, but still requires a 2-man group. My uncle, who got me into Battletech in the first place, has been playing World of Tanks, and has only those skills that transfer, so we'd be just as useless in a competitive group match while he learns how to navigate the specifics of MWO. And the same goes for any other friend I, or anyone else might want to introduce to the game.

[Cherry Garden full of Blue Roses]

8 vs 8?
I think I start playing GQ since now.

I am waiting for 8 vs 8 comeback since PGI... introduce 12 vs 12. I hate 12 vs 12 mode, it destroy this game. I said it because adding 4 more players each side cuts tragically the tactic part of this game. With 12 vs 12 it's just another shooter... Not like before, when 8 players in each team communicate with themselves, when they were thinking about their moves, how to play more with thinking, not just pushing and pressing fire button...

With 12 vs 12 it's almost impossible to think. Too big crowd.

Edited by Cherry Garden full of Blue Roses, 20 April 2020 - 05:25 AM.

[SlammJakk420]

this 8v8 is for gameplay only? seems to me that dropping people into the testing grounds 12/12, 8/8, 4/4, offers a TON of options to train people! I hope they figure stuff out soon, teams are just not what they should be without the ability train together as a working functioning unit!




for love of mechs................... press your r button

Edited by SlammJakk, 20 April 2020 - 05:36 AM.

[PotatoCrunch]

C337Skymaster, on 20 April 2020 - 05:13 AM, said:

Addressing several points:

With regards to a "resignation" option in Faction Play, yes, it has a high potential for abuse, but on the other hand, people "resign" themselves to defeat, anyway, throw their 4 'mechs away and quit as soon as they're permadead, without responding to or participating in any of the tactics the rest of the team might be trying to employ. If it requires a majority vote to be approved, or even a unanimous vote, that would definitely limit the abuse factor, but it still won't stop individuals from reinforcing themselves to death and quitting anyway, which accomplishes the same thing, but takes longer.

I can actually agree with the point being made here that the ability to surrender may cause people to give up more easily and make the experience for their team worse. I was thinking that maybe surrender votes are only available at a certain time stamp or if the kill difference is ludicrous (biggest offender for kills being super snowbally is skirmish and most of the time assault mode). On the flip side, having the ability to surrender can end a close to finished game much sooner in FP since most of the time, the winning side just starts farming the survivors for damage. I’ve had a few games before with a large group where they would team kill people who tried to end the game early. The farming damage part of FP is basically just kicking the other team while they’re already dead on the ground, and I’m sure there would be quite a bit less frustration if that part was skipped entirely.

Speaking of less frustrating, anyone ever get spawn camped for like 15 minutes, and you start getting focused the moment you come out of the dropship? When that happens the game is 99% already over, and to add insult to injury, you get crap rewards. You could’ve played 2-3 games of QP for half the time it takes you to finish one losing game of FP, and you would get more rewards from QP than FP. For my friend at least, FP isn’t fun even if you’re on the winning side, because when your team snowballs hard (12+ kill gap), you know that there’s very little chance that the enemy team can make a comeback, so the rest of the game is just killing poor saps (this is not applicable to siege mode).

Sorry if my wording got confusing, basically I’m saying that the losing team having the ability to end the game sooner can cut out so much frustration from FP. From my experience in a League of a Legends, people who kill themselves in game a lot to try end the game sooner are just really bad at dealing with tilt. Besides, reportable, right?

Regarding group play, yeah it feels pretty difficult to make the game enjoyable for both competitive people as well as casual people without reworking matchmaking somehow. Going against a full unit over and over again just isn’t as fun as the more chaotic approach of pugs in my personal experience, but I also understand if ppl want to go full tactical. Idk if there’s an easy solution to this.

Edited by PotatoCrunch, 20 April 2020 - 06:04 AM.

[Alreech]

SlammJakk, on 20 April 2020 - 05:28 AM, said:

this 8v8 is for gameplay only? seems to me that dropping people into the testing grounds 12/12, 8/8, 4/4, offers a TON of options to train people! I hope they figure stuff out soon, teams are just not what they should be without the ability train together as a working functioning unit!

You can create a private match for training, up to 12 vs 12. (Doesn't cost MC anymore).
It's restricted to owned or trial Mechs, but thats more than enough for training or even a small tournament with friends.

[C E Dwyer]

always resisted 8v8 but this is clearly needed in the group matches

[Alreech]

C337Skymaster, on 20 April 2020 - 05:13 AM, said:

Personally, I'd love to see the drop deck replaced with fully-functioning in-game repair bays and destructible buildings. That way, if it's an even fight, the front-line 'mechs that are getting damaged can retreat, repair, and return, and hold the line while the next wave of 'mechs returns for repair, but if it's a stomp, you only have to stomp through 12 'mechs and you're done.

I doubt that PGI will add a repair function to faction play.
At first: it will costs money to add it (not good for a game in maintenance mode).
Second: it removes the respawn, so the players will play like in Quickplay:
1. don't risk your Mech,
2. use your "Team mates" as meat shield
3. and quit ASAP after death to grind XP & C-Bills with an other Mech in an other match.

Quote

Obviously we'd need to revert to QP weight limits so we don't have 12 Annihilators providing the defense (as much fun as those drops tend to be).

Simple solution:
smaller drop decks with only 3 Mechs and less tonnage (165?) for other game modes than Siege.
Pros:
1 the drop deck mechanic is in the game
2 PGI can sell additional drop decks for MCs
3 shorter matches outside of siege
Cons ?

Quote

With regards to 2-man groups in the solo-queue, maybe the group queue DOES need to be forcibly restricted to 4- or 8-man groups. Group Queue being the super-competitive environment that it invariably becomes, 90% of 2-man groups are the dedicated player and his brand-new or super-casual buddy

And what will prevent two super competive players to drop as 2 player group in Solo?
Nothing.

Quote

that just want to mess around and have a good time without being super-serious about the game. I REALLY want my wife to play this with me, but she doesn't like games to begin with, and gets easily frustrated. She will NOT play if she is not guaranteed to be on my team, and also be placed against players with similarly non-existent skills.
That ain't group queue, but still requires a 2-man group.
My uncle, who got me into Battletech in the first place, has been playing World of Tanks, and has only those skills that transfer, so we'd be just as useless in a competitive group match while he learns how to navigate the specifics of MWO. And the same goes for any other friend I, or anyone else might want to introduce to the game.

Private matches are a much better way than dropping in 12 vs 12 in a 2 player group to show new players the basic skills.

Dropping with 3 regular players and one rookie and playing as lance (using the lance commands to give orders, protecting the rookie) is much better than dropping in a 2 player group, get assinged to a 4 player lance (or splitted between 2 lances because other players drop in 5 or 3 player groups and shuffle the lances to get their group members in the same lance).

And there is also Mechwarrior 5 now, for those how want COOP without competing team.

To be honest: MWO has IMHO too much "competetive Gamemodes" for a game that isn't fitted for competetive gameplay at all.
Solaris 1 vs 1 / 2 vs 2 / Group Play / Competetive Play / Faction Play... all branded as game modes for the pros...
IMHO Solo is the most competetive game mode, because it's only your skill and not teamwork that decides your success. You fight against 12 enemies and 11 other players.

MWO is as much competive as the old Battlefield 2:
You don't have to be a pro to have fun. Join a squad, follow orders, (and give orders as leader) and have fun.
That was the reason why competetive players (from CoD or Quake or Unreal Tournamet) hated Battlefield 2: teamwork was more important than "mad skillz".

The problem in MWO is:
Almost no Lance Leader gives out orders.
Almost no Lance Member follows orders.
Why sould they?
Groups are split between lances, so the two 3 player groups play as two 3 player lances and the 2 player group can't play together.

90% off all MWO matches no matter if Solo or Group is just moving around in one big Blob without any coordination between Lance Leaders.
And why they should bother to coordinate?
Parts of their lance are not in their group, or their group is split between lances.
So the group leader uses a 3rd party tool like Teamspeak instead of the Lance Com Menue.

[Sniper09121986]

Alreech, on 20 April 2020 - 06:57 AM, said:

To be honest: MWO has IMHO too much "competetive Gamemodes" for a game that isn't fitted for competetive gameplay at all.
Solaris 1 vs 1 / 2 vs 2 / Group Play / Competetive Play / Faction Play... all branded as game modes for the pros...
IMHO Solo is the most competetive game mode, because it's only your skill and not teamwork that decides your success. You fight against 12 enemies and 11 other players.

MWO is as much competive as the old Battlefield 2:
You don't have to be a pro to have fun. Join a squad, follow orders, (and give orders as leader) and have fun.
That was the reason why competetive players (from CoD or Quake or Unreal Tournamet) hated Battlefield 2: teamwork was more important than "mad skillz".

At least S7 singles has a zero-sum ELO ladder system like SC2. This is probably the most fair MM system in MWO, because after the initial placement you play with players at your current level, and there is no team to account for/hide behind/get carried with. I would argue on the account of mad skills though, MWO does require its own skills, they are just different from the skills that Quake demands... and are often rendered moot by your own team. Pug life

[K O Z A K]

AndiMech, on 19 April 2020 - 04:16 AM, said:

- match score has to be adjusted/given a bonus, for events and jarls-list

nope, if you get to farm bs WL and KD numbers, your match score should suffer, lol

but really, just separate the numbers for solo que and group que, this should have always been so as they produce such different results

[Alreech]

Sniper09121986, on 20 April 2020 - 07:54 AM, said:

I would argue on the account of mad skills though, MWO does require its own skills, they are just different from the skills that Quake demands... and are often rendered moot by your own team. Pug life

The whole Mechwarrior concept of "modify your Mech as you wish" is bad for competive gameplay.
Imagine fencing without standarised weapons. Foil vs Foil is competetive, Foils vs Sabre or heavy modded chainsaw not...
Most "competetive Videogames" work with fixed loadouts with little differences.

Battlefield 2 didn't demand so much skills. Movement & Gunplay was compared to CoD or Unreal / Quake very slow and forgiving.
But the tools for coordination worked and have been used, something that is mostly ignored by MWO Players.

It's mainly PGIs fault for starting the open Beta without working Lobby and without respawn mechanic.
By the time such things have been added to MWO most players accepted the lack of coordination and sticked with Solo Play / no Respawns / quit 2 grind.
Branding Faction Play (and later Solaris) als "Game Mode for the pros" ;-) wasn't helpfull either.

[Sniper09121986]

Alreech, on 20 April 2020 - 08:49 AM, said:

The whole Mechwarrior concept of "modify your Mech as you wish" is bad for competive gameplay.
Imagine fencing without standarised weapons. Foil vs Foil is competetive, Foils vs Sabre or heavy modded chainsaw not...
Most "competetive Videogames" work with fixed loadouts with little differences.

I get what you are saying, but come to think of it MWO loadouts are not really that diverse now either, seeing how the meta is long established and unlikely to change anytime soon. Everyone knows what works and runs it.

[Carl Avery]

So far, 8vs8 seems to be working pretty well. Back-to-back matches have been happening every day, at multiple times of day. This is a lot better than the dead 12vs12 queue, in which—for the last six months or so—matches were only able to be found for roughly 12 hours per month. (About once a week, when units coordinated to make it happen, 12vs12 GQ would come alive for a few hours.)

There are further improvements that could be made, notably an indication of the group sizes currently searching; it would help groups get matches if they knew how to arrange their group sizes. For example, if we had a 6-man searching and we saw that there were another 3 + 8 searching, and we couldn't get a match, one of our group could drop out for a round and check back in after, ensuring an 8vs8 match.

The fact that players are returning to group queue demonstrates that people are still interested. Most of my unit members who quit the game in the last ~half-year told me that they quit because of group queue being dead. Since the 8vs8 started happening, some of my unit members who haven't played MWO at all since the effective end of 12vs12 GQ (~November 2019) have begun to return to MWO. Hopefully, this will happen on a larger scale, too.

Edited by Carl Avery, 20 April 2020 - 03:47 PM.

[Alreech]

Sniper09121986, on 20 April 2020 - 08:53 AM, said:

I get what you are saying, but come to think of it MWO loadouts are not really that diverse now either, seeing how the meta is long established and unlikely to change anytime soon. Everyone knows what works and runs it.

And the Meta is Solo Quickplay & NASCAR, so most builds work in that style, built to work alone, not as part of a team...