297 replies to this topic

[Sniper09121986]

AndiMech, on 21 April 2020 - 10:29 AM, said:

Yeah, it is odd that those comp guys are against it. Maybe they are hiding something?!?
They must have a hidden agenda...
Next they tell us to run low back-armor, so they can kill us easier... or that lurms are bad, especially on siege attack...
They just want to hold us back... i know it...

Back armour in comp/FP is one thing, but in solo queue your @ss is your problem and nobody is going to watch it but you. And it is not just the red team you need to watch out for... Sad fact, but fact nonetheless.

Tarl Cabot, on 21 April 2020 - 06:27 PM, said:

If, who am I kidding.. when PGI makes this change, it does need some changes.

1. Tier Realignment between Tier 1-4. Tier 5 for newbies and those who are already there.
2. PSR change - greater thresholds thus removing the upward movement bias
3. MM use two tier separation instead of 3, or 2.5 (why not?)
4. MM does not take average Tier but highest tier in group
5. Potentially limit group based on max Tier of a member. (optional)

After such drastic changes PSR needs to be reset for everyone. In fact it would not hurt to reset it on a regular basis to keep things relevant. Which brings me to the topic of...

Solaris 7

No premades except where specifically intended. No shifting the blame for match results because there is no-one else to blame. Zero-sum matchmaker with literally no chance to mess it up. The one and only aspect of MWO that operates exactly as expected. The one and only stat in MWO with absolute and irrefutable objectivity.

Some choice we are left, huh?

[Axys Rageborn]

Just let solos opt in. I know it may go back to square one if no one opts in but that's why you make it attractive by adding worthy incentives.

Just call it the "Freelancer Salvage bonus" which gives you the following,

1 "single" item loot box.

the loot box can contain the following,

Any item that can be brought with cbills including mechs and mech bays. Just use the chance to drop from the current system.

It will feel like the player gets a bit of salvage from every battle and fits into the whole universe.

Keep the 8v8, and just work this in.

[Alreech]

Triaxx2, on 21 April 2020 - 05:54 PM, said:

Why not just add a solo only/group allowed tick box to to the server selection dropdown, so a solo player has the option to be shuffled into a group drop?

At the moment MWO has 2 types of players, split on 2 Queues:
Players who want to play solo.
Players who want to play in a group.

A option for "group allowed" will made it more or less 3 Queues:
Players who want to play solo.
Players who want to play solo or group
Players who want to play in a group.
If there is one thing MWO doesn't need: more Queues

Even it will work to fill up the missing groups for 12 vs 12:
8, 9 & 10 Player Groups get 4, 3 & 2 random Solo Players to reach 12 vs 12 match size.
And whose big premades won't be happy about it:
"Why my 8 player premade gets 4 Solos agains 3 groups of 4? !!!!! PGI please add a "No SOLOS tick box!!!!1111"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The thing is:
MWO has yet such a tick box:
Player groups who want to fill up their group with random players can use the LFG.
Solo Players who want to play in a group can also use the LFG.

And how many players use the LFG?
Not enough.

And why most players don't use the LFG?
Case A ("players are horrible people"):
Most MWO Solo players don't like to play in or against a group.
Groups don't like to invite strangers in their group (and in their Teamspeak / Discord)

Case B ("it's a bad design"):
MWO Solo players don't use LFG because not enough groups are in that.
Groups don't use LFG because they don't have to fill up their group: you can drop as any group size between 2 and 10, so why invite ?

PGI could force group players to fill up their group with players from the LFG (or friends list) ist they set min & max player size in group play to 4.
(Maybe even with the option to increase the size to 8 or 12 if you can get 5 or 9 players in your group).
Won't happening, because most group players hate this idea.

IMHO it would be the best option because it also allow to set up smaller matches (4 vs 4, 8 vs 8) in not enough groups are aviable.

Edited by Alreech, 22 April 2020 - 03:35 AM.

[justcallme A S H]

Alreech, on 22 April 2020 - 03:33 AM, said:

A option for "group allowed" will made it more or less 3 Queues:
Players who want to play solo.
Players who want to play solo or group
Players who want to play in a group.
If there is one thing MWO doesn't need: more Queues

BZZZT. Incorrect.

It is still two queues. It is not magically a "3rd" queue at all.

It would be like saying Faction Play have "2" queues because Solo and Group can Queue up in it.

What utter nonsense.

[Alreech]

justcallme A S H, on 22 April 2020 - 03:44 AM, said:

BZZZT. Incorrect.

It is still two queues. It is not magically a "3rd" queue at all.

It would be like saying Faction Play have "2" queues because Solo and Group can Queue up in it.

What utter nonsense.

"Nonsense" depends on the way the matchmaker works.
Can a player be in 2 Queues at the same time?
What happens if he is matched into a Solo Match while he is at the same time matched to a Group Match?
Only PGI knows if their matchmaker would need a 3rd Queue to put Solo & Group Players together.

Faction Play with Group & Solo is obvious the example for PGI Idea to allow Groups in Solo, but as you say: it's one Queue, not two.

Edited by Alreech, 22 April 2020 - 04:18 AM.

[justcallme A S H]

Don't go backpedalling on yet another incorrect statement now or try insert a variable that doesn't matter.

A OPT-IN is not a 3rd queue. It never will be.

[w4ldO]

Alreech, on 22 April 2020 - 04:18 AM, said:

Can a player be in 2 Queues at the same time?

no
a checkbox for opt-in would put you into group queue

[Sniper09121986]

w4ldO, on 22 April 2020 - 04:25 AM, said:

no
a checkbox for opt-in would put you into group queue

Not necessarily, if it is implemented the same way as QP server selection, so that you simply jump into the first available match. These are all technicalities though.

[Dionnsai]

If you don't fix the tier system so under-performing pilots drop into the lower tiers, matchmaking will still be bad.

[PotatoCrunch]

I appreciate so much that resources are actually being poured into this game. For that, I have to say I’m very happy.

I prefer the 12v12 life over the 8v8 life personally. I know it’s subjective, and I think that 12v12s are just more fun if you try to keep things casual; I think people unintentionally throwing the game is part of the charm. 8v8 feels too quick for my tastes, especially when playing against an organized team.

With great caution, I have to say that I like the idea of combining group queue and solo queue more than the current 8v8 group queue. I say with great caution because I keep hearing all these horror stories of the top 1% winning a large majority of their games as a group (even a small group) versus casual solo queue players. It’s a tough situation imo unless all the top players happen to be playing at the same time every day. But like, I also understand that the pre-8v8-test state of the game is basically unsustainable since you’re forced to either:
1. Play solo queue without your friends
2. Play group play and wait a long long time for queue to pop
3. Play faction play and deal with potentially one sided frustration as you eventually get rolled over
4. Sync drop and lose the lottery by repeatedly playing against your friends
This doesn’t seem to be a model that inspires growth, since people couldn’t go, “This is a cool *** game, I’m gonna invite my friends to play it with me!” And this IS a cool *** game which is the most feelsbad part, because it’s nearly impossible to reasonably have fun with your friends in the game (pre recent 8v8 testing). Most of your friends will drop the game out of frustration that they can’t play with you, and the game imo truly doesn’t click until you understand most/all general knowledge, which there is a lot of, for a new player to the series. I mean, it’s practically two games in one for a new player: the mechlab, and the gameplay.

So I have to say that I’m glad that options are being put out to help people play with their friends, even though I am quite weary of the potential effects that combining group queue and solo queue will have. Others above me have suggested what I also think can work: improving match quality by matching similarly skilled players with each other as much as possible, so that the top 1% can reasonably be fighting people their size instead of beating up the little guys.

I love the feeling of outplaying and outbrawling my opponents with my maneuvers and my plethora of laser beams/big big guns. I love running the Black Lanner with 6 heavy machine guns even though it’s far from meta; I just made a build on a whim and discovered how fun it is to pilot a blazing fast medium with the firepower of a light. If we can easily make these experiences more accessible to other people, I’m all for it.

[Alreech]

Dionnsai, on 22 April 2020 - 05:11 AM, said:

If you don't fix the tier system so under-performing pilots drop into the lower tiers, matchmaking will still be bad.

If PGI allows groups that are not equal or multiple to the lance size (4/8/12) the players in the lance are split between groups, making coordination in the Lance difficult.

If PGI disolves each match the team & lances the will to coordinate with your lancemates is zero.

[AndiMech]

Offtopic i know, gonna be brief:
Problem with sarcasm, not everyone gets it...

Sniper09121986, on 22 April 2020 - 02:00 AM, said:

...
Back armour in comp/FP is one thing, but in solo queue your @ss is your problem and nobody is going to watch it but you. And it is not just the red team you need to watch out for... Sad fact, but fact nonetheless.
...

Solaris Backarmor 0 or 1, everything above is hurting yourself
Everywhere else, PLEASE for the love of god, dont go higher than 8!!!
i run 1-3,maybe on old builds 5...
in QP, in Faction... alone, in a team ... in lights, in assaults ... in longrange, in brawl... no exceptions
NO, there is no "BUT"!!!
you dont believe me? check out my stream!
ffs, stop being so stuborn/ignorant and swallow your friggin' pride!
Start listen to people who are better than you, you know who they are(if not, https://leaderboard.isengrim.org can give you hints), i did from the beginning, it is not hard!!!!

[Vectoron The Black Minister]

KEEP 8v8 (and the minor bug fixes).

Just add the solo plays to 8v8 group queue (Make it one queue for both teams and solo).

TBH Never liked 12v12 anyway. Too crowded outside of FW!

Bringing in 8v8 was the smartest choice PGI made in a long time. For the love of Blake, don't screw that up too.

Edited by Vectoron The Black Minister, 22 April 2020 - 06:32 AM.

[Sniper09121986]

AndiMech, on 22 April 2020 - 05:29 AM, said:

Offtopic i know, gonna be brief:
Problem with sarcasm, not everyone gets it...

Solaris Backarmor 0 or 1, everything above is hurting yourself
Everywhere else, PLEASE for the love of god, dont go higher than 8!!!
i run 1-3,maybe on old builds 5...

I run 10 center, 8 at sides. It stops one accidental hit normally. I had more than my share of being one-shot by a teammate refusing to expose one hair on his @ss for a second. I understand that playing with coordinated teammates on comms is all fun and games, but in pug matches it is more than 12 guys that can work against you.

[Brauer]

Sniper09121986, on 22 April 2020 - 06:36 AM, said:

I run 10 center, 8 at sides. It stops one accidental hit normally. I had more than my share of being one-shot by a teammate refusing to expose one hair on his @ss for a second. I understand that playing with coordinated teammates on comms is all fun and games, but in pug matches it is more than 12 guys that can work against you.

Thank you for giving us less front armor to chew through.

Honestly, running low back armor is not a big issue in QP. Yes, teammates will shoot you in the back, but you get more out of putting armor in the direction where people are trying to shoot you than in the back where you might accidentally get shot.

[AndiMech]

I said there is no but, yet:

Sniper09121986, on 22 April 2020 - 06:36 AM, said:

I run 10 center, 8 at sides. It stops one accidental hit normally. I had more than my share of being one-shot by a teammate refusing to expose one hair on his @ss for a second. I understand that playing with coordinated teammates on comms is all fun and games, but in pug matches it is more than 12 guys that can work against you.

No

[K O Z A K]

Sniper09121986, on 22 April 2020 - 06:36 AM, said:

I run 10 center, 8 at sides. It stops one accidental hit normally. I had more than my share of being one-shot by a teammate refusing to expose one hair on his @ss for a second. I understand that playing with coordinated teammates on comms is all fun and games, but in pug matches it is more than 12 guys that can work against you.

You should also take a few weapons in each range bracket for each mech. You gotta make sure you're able to defend yourself at all ranges. Also up your mouse sensitivity to max, so you can do quick reaction shots on enemies that appear suddenly.

[Sniper09121986]

Brauer, on 22 April 2020 - 07:26 AM, said:

Thank you for giving us less front armor to chew through.

Honestly, running low back armor is not a big issue in QP. Yes, teammates will shoot you in the back, but you get more out of putting armor in the direction where people are trying to shoot you than in the back where you might accidentally get shot.

The difference is literally five points either way. And as messy as the action gets sometimes I think I would be better off with no armour up front whatsoever. Coordinated teams are so coordinated, randomly nascaring in several directions at once, that enemy lights catch up with me even before I complete a quarter of the circuit around the Big Central Feature on the Map. GG EZ.

[Aristo_]

I'll echo the sentiment of groups needing to be separate from the solo queue to avoid pubs getting stomped, but I'm all for solo opt-in to the group queue. Allowing solo players to opt-in to group play would allow folks like me who desire a tighter, structured game environment to participate in organized games without the strain of QP randoms.

Because I'm a returning player, I don't have the stable of optimized mechs required by FP's deck structure. Also, my old unit doesn't exist anymore and in the 6-7 years I've been gone, I no longer have a friendbase of experienced players to drop with. Dropping solo into a group queue and being able to play with experienced, organized teams alleviates both problems.

Edited by Aristo_, 22 April 2020 - 08:11 AM.

[Horseman]

Tarl Cabot, on 20 April 2020 - 06:50 PM, said:

I would also suggest a Tier realignment with a higher, adjusted PSR thresholds shortly thereafter.

Adjusted PSR thresholds - yes, we needed that for years. Possibly different change thresholds based on your current tier.
As for tier realignment... either dramatically increase the magnitude of PSR changes for a while or just go with a global PSR reset. That or have PSR decay over time - however it's done, rising above T3 should require effort and commitment, and staying in T1 should require consistent performance.
Currently we have 38-percenters who were floated to T1 by the PSR algorithm - that negatively impacts matchmaking for EVERYONE, them included. Playtime isn't indicative of experience, and players who can't cut it in higher tiers SHOULD be able to drop down in tiers so that they're matched with oppositon that's more on their level.

Aristo_, on 22 April 2020 - 08:06 AM, said:

I'll echo the sentiment of groups needing to be separate from the solo queue to avoid pubs getting stomped, but I'm all for solo opt-in to the group queue. Allowing solo players to opt-in to group play would allow folks like me who desire a tighter, structured game environment to participate in organized games without the strain of QP randoms.

Because I'm a returning player, I don't have the stable of optimized mechs required by FP's deck structure. Also, my old unit doesn't exist anymore and in the 6-7 years I've been gone, I no longer have a friendbase of experienced players to drop with. Dropping solo into a group queue and being able to play with experienced, organized teams alleviates both problems.

I mean, there's a solution for merging the queues that's already in place in FP and that in theory could work in QP - bulk out both teams with groups and then balance with highest-performing solos.

The problem is that currently QP matches based on the tier system, and the upward bias in PSR calculations makes it so that as much as 60% of the playerbase makes it to T1. That would have to be fixed before we can talk about any meaningful matchmaking in QP.

Another possible way to improve this is only mixing groups with solos who have enabled voice comms - groups coordinate, players who cannot (or are unwilling to) participate would be detrimental to their team's performance and that would lead to unpleasant matches for both themselves and the other players (the frustration when the last guys on your team throw a match because they couldn't hear tactical information on comms is something else)

Edited by Horseman, 22 April 2020 - 08:54 AM.