1579 replies to this topic

[Larsh]

Nesutizale, on 04 May 2020 - 09:05 AM, said:

When I think about the gamer types of bartel....I doubt we can bring together the solo player who fall mostly into the "killer" and "archiver" type with the explorers and socials. They are on a bit of a different end of the spectrum, also no one is completly one or the other but that aside.

The more importend question would be, when we can't bring those two groups together, how could we improve group Q so much that the small groups will again find their way over there?

Excellent point. My group of solo mates on Discord would still drop in Group Queue if it wasn't the fact that we needed dedicated 12 mans to even get a match in a timely manner.

So, it can be seen that "groups" still exist, but instead of playing in Group Queue, they were playing in Solo Queue already with sync drops. So in a sense, small "groups" were already in Solo Queue before this test.

Edited by Larsh, 04 May 2020 - 09:16 AM.

[Einherier96]

Spare Knight, on 04 May 2020 - 09:05 AM, said:

So, how do you "hold your tier at 3" and how does that make you any different from smurfing? [Redacted]

A mixture of deliberatly taking meme machines with me (which i would do anyways cause i prioritize fun over being competitve anyways, as long as i am not a detriment deadweight to my team that pulls it down it is perfectly fine to do so), and the other part? very simple, i simply don't play the game. why would i, when part of my amusement of the game comes from playing with others. if the game doesn't offer that, then i am out.

[Redacted]

[Spare Knight]

Magic Pain Glove, on 04 May 2020 - 09:00 AM, said:

I mean hell even NuttyRat ( nothing against you Nutty ) has over 5 WLR at the time of this comment . Yondu was dropping groups exclusively and at the time of this comment has 23 WL with 0 losses . Go watch his last stream and see how competitive the matches were . justcallmeASH would have had the same results if he didnt tell his unit mates to deliberately sync with him so they can fight each other. The truth is most of the matches WILL NOT BE contested without intentional syncdrops.

I am slowly becoming numb to the changes and if people are fine with industrialized agriculture and pre-determined matches , who am I to argue .

Magic Pain Glove confirmed my suspicions. The top groups are trying to sync drop so that can compete with each other. Am I correct on that?

I agree. As long as the seals are enjoying the clubbing...

[Einherier96]

Nesutizale, on 04 May 2020 - 09:05 AM, said:

When I think about the gamer types of bartel....I doubt we can bring together the solo player who fall mostly into the "killer" and "archiver" type with the explorers and socials. They are on a bit of a different end of the spectrum, also no one is completly one or the other but that aside.

The more importend question would be, when we can't bring those two groups together, how could we improve group Q so much that the small groups will again find their way over there?

literally any other game besides certain shooters are able to pull in these players, and put them in the same queue while not having to divide them into group and solo queue, the question is rather why is/should mwo not be able to do the same.

Also group queue would simply need an influx of a few hundreds of player, nothing too difficult to achieve *sarcasm off* the community that is here has allready established that group queue is dead, and are only synch dropping, getting rid of that stigma will be nearly impossible.

[Knight Captain Morgan]

Nesutizale, on 04 May 2020 - 09:05 AM, said:

The more importend question would be, when we can't bring those two groups together, how could we improve group Q so much that the small groups will again find their way over there?

With a stealth change. Put anyone who joins quickplay as part of a group into the old group que without making any sort of announcement or giving any in-game notification and let things play out.

Once the premades realize they're facing other premades instead of farming PUGS, they'll just quit again.

[Einherier96]

Spare Knight, on 04 May 2020 - 09:15 AM, said:

Magic Pain Glove confirmed my suspicions. The top groups are trying to sync drop so that can compete with each other. Am I correct on that?

I agree. As long as the seals are enjoying the clubbing...

obviously they do at the start. are comp players forbidden from trying out a new toy that the game offers us? they have the same right to use the qp as well, to try it out (and in the process they will propably do the giggle and ruin some peoples match by completly trampling over them), but it would be pg's job to have a strong enough incentive for them to go back to fp or ranked play after a week or two.


[Redacted]

Edited by GM Patience, 04 May 2020 - 04:09 PM.

[Brauer]

Einherier96, on 04 May 2020 - 09:12 AM, said:

just out of pure curiosity. when do you think it will get boring for these people to easily stomp others? surely, some enjoy it, but i will play the wild guess that most people who are able to stomp a big portion of the community by themselves will be bored of not having a challenge after a while. you can only giggle so long before doing the same old comp stomp gets boring. trying to look at the start of a test of something and then declaring results is a pretty close minded mindset, don't you agree?

also, you are stuck in the same mindset as brauer. for some people it doesn't matter if they loose, the question is how we played in the match, how we loosed. I can loose all day long if i go out of the match in a blaze of glory (note, that does not mean that i need to have done extremly well, i would like to live up to my own standard in the round for sure, but i don't mind dying as a tanking shield for my teammates, only to see the push crumble hilariously because of whatever reason, or simply dying as one of the last ones tucked in a corner trying to take one of the enemies with me, or dying in a hilarious joke build that is somehow somewhat working or funny).
Not everyone is a achiever, you should try to broaden your horizon a bit.

So you've referred to me a bunch here in ways that don't reflect my point of view. I don't need to win every match and the fact that I usually drop in a 2-4 player group in FW and have gone out and competed in competitive leagues demonstrates that. You also keep demonstrating a pretty massive misunderstanding of what it means to play well in this game and the meta. You talk about how a sniper mentality is a bad thing or "tanking as a shield for my teammates" is necessarily good. In the current meta taking up power positions with a three to four player group wins games. You don't need to be a "sniper" and have exceedingly long range, but AC2s, UAC2s, UAC5s, UAC10s, and ERPPCs all get the job done exceedingly well. In many cases a team can simply stand in the open and burst down anything that pops up. That's not sniping, that's basically playing whack-a-mole. And when an enemy team fires back effectively a team can simply use cover and trade, trading is a core game mechanic. Attempting to tank for your team is a great way to throw matches hard. So please try to learn the meta and improve, rather than making these baseless claims about the meta. I love a good push, but the QP meta is not to push right now.

What I am concerned about is how groups are able to dominate QP. In the old solo queue you had a huge amount of randomness and some teams got stacked by the matchmaker. I get it, that happens, we have a bad PSR system and other reasons this happened. I could still go out and assess whether or not I did as much as I could to try to swing a win. In the new quick play format a group simply has a massive impact on win/loss and reduces the impact of solo players substantially.

Anyway, I am getting bored of this and the way you are trying to claim to know what's in my mind. I look forward to running across you out there with one of my groups.

EDIT: Remembered I wanted to add this: part of what motivates me is that I have seen the salt, hackusations, and other expressions of aggrevation by members of the community when they get giga-stomped by strong groups of players. I've seen this in group queue and faction many times over the years. All this "we don't care about winning or losing" stuff is, for at least a notable part of the lower performing playerbase, completely inaccurate. People complain all the time about their DZ being farmed because they got wrecked on wave 1, or about teams bringing reasonably well synergized builds, and yet you claim most players don't care if they win or lose?

Edited by Brauer, 04 May 2020 - 09:37 AM.

[Spare Knight]

Einherier96, on 04 May 2020 - 09:21 AM, said:

obviously they do at the start. are comp players forbidden from trying out a new toy that the game offers us? they have the same right to use the qp as well, to try it out (and in the process they will propably do the giggle and ruin some peoples match by completly trampling over them), but it would be pg's job to have a strong enough incentive for them to go back to fp or ranked play after a week or two.

[Redacted]

It is the job of the match maker to even out the teams. The top tier groups should not have to sync drop to increase their chances of a competitive match.

[Brauer]

Einherier96, on 04 May 2020 - 09:21 AM, said:

obviously they do at the start. are comp players forbidden from trying out a new toy that the game offers us? they have the same right to use the qp as well, to try it out (and in the process they will propably do the giggle and ruin some peoples match by completly trampling over them), but it would be pg's job to have a strong enough incentive for them to go back to fp or ranked play after a week or two.

[Redacted]

There
Is
No
Ranked
Mode
That
Is
Always
On

If you're going to make claims at least know enough to make halfway reasonably ones.

[Nesutizale]

Einherier96, on 04 May 2020 - 09:17 AM, said:

literally any other game besides certain shooters are able to pull in these players, and put them in the same queue while not having to divide them into group and solo queue, the question is rather why is/should mwo not be able to do the same.

Also group queue would simply need an influx of a few hundreds of player, nothing too difficult to achieve *sarcasm off* the community that is here has allready established that group queue is dead, and are only synch dropping, getting rid of that stigma will be nearly impossible.

The only other game I have experiance with in that regard is World of Warships. They have a seperation by the Tier system of ships. Either you are very good or you need premium time to be at the top 3 tiers.
You can pretty clearly feel how different games are depending on the tier of ships people use. So I prefere 5 and 7 sometimes I play 8 but I don't go higher also I have ships.

MWO dosn't has this kind of seperation. People have access to everything, except a good matchmaker

The fun part about sync dropping is that those people want to team up, why else syncdrop?
I am still wondering, what made people leave group Q in the first place? I remember that the drop times where to damn high and with just 3 people going into faction play was just asking for a beating...and long drop times on top.

As I said before...we need a proper matchmaker that gets rid of the PSR and goes with ELO, W/L, Matchscore...anything else that is better suited and not a progression bar. Also something that prevents smurfing a little bit better by placeing those people a lot faster into the higher levels then its happening now.

[Anomalocaris]

Einherier96, on 04 May 2020 - 08:39 AM, said:

Nah mate, the difference is, we see it as an possibility for change, sure, for positive change, but as a possiblity to change things. you see it as a danger to your own enjoyment, and that alone.

Newbies will get stomped anyways. they will get stomped by smurfs (or by casuals like me who hold their tier at 3 to be able to play with their friends once a year when i was able to push them over the trauma that is synch dropping)...

This game needs change, or it will be put on ice, and we won't be able to see another mechwarrior game with proper multiplayer until half life 3...until another decade

Change? The one part of the game that actually worked decently and attracted the most players? The one thing that has stayed alive while all the other efforts failed? That's just flat out ignorant. If someone comes into the hospital with a stab wound to the abdomen and a broken leg, we don't prep them for laser eye surgery first. And we sure as hell don't try to correct their good eye to be more like their bad eye.

And don't presume to know me. I've been a strong, strong advocate for creating a proper player ranking system and matchmaker for years. That's the kind of change I can get behind because it would benefit _everyone_ in the game. But old Russ thinks PGI does as good a job as anyone in matchmaking. Yes, I'll remind you again, he actually wrote that on twitter.

[redacted]

Edited by Ilyahweh, 05 May 2020 - 11:25 AM.
discussing moderation

[Nesutizale]

Knight Captain Morgan, on 04 May 2020 - 09:18 AM, said:

With a stealth change. Put anyone who joins quickplay as part of a group into the old group que without making any sort of announcement or giving any in-game notification and let things play out.
Once the premades realize they're facing other premades instead of farming PUGS, they'll just quit again.

First of that will be noticeable very, very fast when the match times are up to 30min again you know that something is very wrong.
Also, looking at the number of players and where they stand by matchscore, I think its pretty save to say that the farmers are just a very minor part of the community. Sadly / luckly, depending on where you are in the world, those farmers seam to be concentrated in the US, so while you bash each other the rest of the world plays fairly decent games

Spare Knight, on 04 May 2020 - 09:26 AM, said:

It is the job of the match maker to even out the teams. The top tier groups should not have to sync drop to increase their chances of a competitive match.

Indeed a good matchmaker would try to find a proper match....PGI realy needs to rework it. Nearly everything that is problematic with matches isnt modes or players but the freaking PSR matchmaker.

[Alreech]

Nesutizale, on 04 May 2020 - 09:31 AM, said:

The fun part about sync dropping is that those people want to team up, why else syncdrop?

Even if you end up on different sides of the same match it's still fun.
You can mock you opponent via Teamspeak

Quote

I am still wondering, what made people leave group Q in the first place?

The first time?
PGI not delivering the Drop Ship mode & Role Warfare.

2nd & 3rd time?
Friend left MWO to play something else. Solo sucked too, so i quite what too.

Quote

I remember that the drop times where to damn high and with just 3 people going into faction play was just asking for a beating...and long drop times on top.

That was the reason we went to faction play.

Quote

As I said before...we need a proper matchmaker that gets rid of the PSR and goes with ELO, W/L, Matchscore...anything else that is better suited and not a progression bar. Also something that prevents smurfing a little bit better by placeing those people a lot faster into the higher levels then its happening now.

Different match sizes would also be helpfull to speed matchmaking up, balancing it and to make better use of some small maps.
4 vs 4
8 vs 8
12 vs 12

[Nesutizale]

Anomalocaris, on 04 May 2020 - 09:33 AM, said:

Change? The one part of the game that actually worked decently and attracted the most players? The one thing that has stayed alive while all the other efforts failed? That's just flat out ignorant.

May I inject a bit of a different point of view? Maybe solo Q isn't so successfull because its good but, as you stated, the other parts are so bad so that there was either the option to quite completly or at least have some quick solo matches.

Solo Q has also lots of problems from the bad matchmaker to boring game modes, map voting that only results in the same 3 maps beeing played on, lack of new maps, rebalanceing/redesining old maps, etc.

So solo Q is more a last straw then a realy good working thing, just the least not so bad working part.

[Einherier96]

Nesutizale, on 04 May 2020 - 09:31 AM, said:

The only other game I have experiance with in that regard is World of Warships. They have a seperation by the Tier system of ships. Either you are very good or you need premium time to be at the top 3 tiers.
You can pretty clearly feel how different games are depending on the tier of ships people use. So I prefere 5 and 7 sometimes I play 8 but I don't go higher also I have ships.

MWO dosn't has this kind of seperation. People have access to everything, except a good matchmaker

The fun part about sync dropping is that those people want to team up, why else syncdrop?
I am still wondering, what made people leave group Q in the first place? I remember that the drop times where to damn high and with just 3 people going into faction play was just asking for a beating...and long drop times on top.

As I said before...we need a proper matchmaker that gets rid of the PSR and goes with ELO, W/L, Matchscore...anything else that is better suited and not a progression bar. Also something that prevents smurfing a little bit better by placeing those people a lot faster into the higher levels then its happening now.

If you play wows, you should look at their topic talk they released yesterday about how their mm works. to keep it short: yes, higher tier ships give you a distinct advantage in the game, but you don't need to be good to play t8-10. Also the game doesn't divide via elo or other stuff, all the players are put into one pool. but if skill level was really such a big concern, or groups, you could take the way the wows mm handles uptiering ships (in short, it is capped, you will only get uptiered to your maximum uptier at 40% of your amtches, the mm looks at your match history and manipulates your mm accordingly if your percentage gets too high), to make sure that people see groups only so often.

[Nesutizale]

Alreech, on 04 May 2020 - 09:42 AM, said:

Even if you end up on different sides of the same match it's still fun.
You can mock you opponent via Teamspeak

Yah I can imagne that to be fun. Sadly sync drop never worked for me...my friends and I where not even on oposing teams so everyone played his match and again and again until they left and now returned just for the 4 weeks. Had a very fun play during the weekend.

Quote

Different match sizes would also be helpfull to speed matchmaking up, balancing it and to make better use of some small maps.
4 vs 4
8 vs 8
12 vs 12

Yes that is something I also thought about. If you could at least reduce waiting times to a max of 5 minutes where you will get a garanteed drop, even if its only 4v4 that would make me play group Q.

[DAEDALOS513]

Nesutizale, on 04 May 2020 - 09:42 AM, said:

May I inject a bit of a different point of view? Maybe solo Q isn't so successfull because its good but, as you stated, the other parts are so bad so that there was either the option to quite completly or at least have some quick solo matches.

Solo Q has also lots of problems from the bad matchmaker to boring game modes, map voting that only results in the same 3 maps beeing played on, lack of new maps, rebalanceing/redesining old maps, etc.

So solo Q is more a last straw then a realy good working thing, just the least not so bad working part.

So true!

Edited by DAEDALOS513, 04 May 2020 - 10:05 AM.

[VonBruinwald]

WE NEED A DOUBLE-ENDED MATCHMAKER!

On one end we have the solos,
In the middle we have small groups (2-4),
On the other we have large groups (5-12),

The matchmaker pulls matches from both end:

On one side it pulls solos, when it runs out of solos it starts pulling Small groups to top up the number of players.
On the other side it pulls groups L->S when it runs out of group players it uses solos to fill the holes.

Solos play solos, groups play groups and the only time it pulls from the other is when population is insufficient, and the odd occasions where all other matches are filled.

How you match tier in all that.... who cares, tier is already broken.

Edited by VonBruinwald, 04 May 2020 - 09:56 AM.

[Einherier96]

VonBruinwald, on 04 May 2020 - 09:55 AM, said:

WE NEED A DOUBLE-ENDED MATCHMAKER!

On one end we have the solos,
In the middle we have small 2-4,
On the other we have large groups 5-12,

The matchmaker pulls matches from both end:

On one side it pulls solos, when it runs out of solos it starts pulling groups S->L to top up the number of players.
On the other side it pulls groups L->S when it runs out of group players it uses solos to fill the holes.

Solos play solos, groups play groups and the only time it pulls from the other is when population is insufficient, and the odd occasions where all other matches are filled.

How you match tier in all that.... who cares, tier is already broken.

this, thanks!

[Anomalocaris]

Nesutizale, on 04 May 2020 - 09:42 AM, said:

May I inject a bit of a different point of view? Maybe solo Q isn't so successfull because its good but, as you stated, the other parts are so bad so that there was either the option to quite completly or at least have some quick solo matches.

Solo Q has also lots of problems from the bad matchmaker to boring game modes, map voting that only results in the same 3 maps beeing played on, lack of new maps, rebalanceing/redesining old maps, etc.

So solo Q is more a last straw then a realy good working thing, just the least not so bad working part.

Fair enough, but it still begs the question of why not improve what's wrong with solo queue instead of importing features from game modes that died?

A smart CEO would make sure what works is solid and then fix the other stuff. If my engine needs an oil change, I'm not going to pump half the oil from my broken transmission into the engine and hope that does the trick.