1579 replies to this topic

[Magic Pain Glove]

Einherier96, on 04 May 2020 - 09:12 AM, said:

just out of pure curiosity. when do you think it will get boring for these people to easily stomp others?

When they can no longer queue up.

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i will play the wild guess that most people who are able to stomp a big portion of the community by themselves will be bored of not having a challenge after a while

Yes. They will have three options : Leave the game , Embrace Industial Agriculture and Self-Balance ( term coined by russ) .Last option is the least likely one.

Quote

for some people it doesn't matter if they loose

Not this s**t again. I love the fact that the same people saying this are the same ones who stop dropping in group queue after getting repeatedly pummeled and go seek refuge in solo queue syncdrops.

Not to worry tho .There is no escape now .

[ TRACTOR NOISE SLOWLY GETTING LOUDER ]

[Knight Captain Morgan]

Larsh, on 04 May 2020 - 10:01 AM, said:

I don't know if that would be a proper fix.

MM needs a certain amount of people per group to work. Imagine it like piecing together a puzzle. You can't shove a group of 8 in with a group of 5. I wasn't sure if you had that mind. Unless PGI were to still implement strict group numbers that are divisible by 4, 3, or 2 then maybe that would work.

But, still, I don't think a "stealth" change would weigh well on the mind of the players.

There's not anymore 5 or 5+ man groups queing in group que. It's a "combined" group que remember? Not just a total deletion of the solo que? All those 2, 3, & 4 man groups who "suddenly returned" to the game for "competition" but are exclusively joining quick play matches would/could be matched against each other now with drastically lower wait times whilst solo puggers could still be matched against each other with similar or "slightly" longer wait times than before. *POOF! everyone's happy! Except they wouldn't be happy would they? because ANY REASON OTHER THAN MAH PREMADE WANNAS FARMIN DAH PUGGZORS FOR DAH LULZ!!!!elevetyone

Edited by Knight Captain Morgan, 04 May 2020 - 11:15 AM.

[Z Paradox]

Larsh, on 04 May 2020 - 11:08 AM, said:

I think one stat we're missing is the definite player number for those playing MWO. And then how many of that player base is playing solo / group. Then also seeing how many of those solo players are willing to play in group to fill the gap. Its a lot of factors, and I'm sure Russ isn't going to put the effort to find it.

Z Paradox, on 04 May 2020 - 10:52 AM, said:

PGI could just add option for "solo" and/or "group" next to quick play and same to group drop: add groups and/or add solo players. that way we could play solo vs solos or group vs group or mix of all...

[Larsh]

Magic Pain Glove, on 04 May 2020 - 11:12 AM, said:

Not this s**t again. I love the fact that the same people saying this are the same ones who stop dropping in group queue after getting repeatedly pummeled and go seek refuge in solo queue syncdrops.

Urg, I feel partially to blame that this phrase even caught on, and I wish it wasn't used anymore really.

I said this when I was in a more heated mindset, and didn't think straight. Should've said something like this instead:

"We play to win, and as a team, but we don't get upset if we lose. We play on to the next match to see how we can change our playstyle and improve. We enjoy playing against the odds.

In some ways we miss playing with the higher players in MWO. It gave us a challenge, and goal to aspire to. Imagine like trying to defeat a hard as hell boss in another game"

Kinda wordy, but better explains the mindset of the whole "don't care if we lose" thing going around. It's not about going in without a goal to win, but to have the mindset to not get angry when your group strategy doesn't go as planned.

Edited by Larsh, 04 May 2020 - 11:22 AM.

[Brauer]

Einherier96, on 04 May 2020 - 10:59 AM, said:

Nah, I personally am fine with them, I don't care. But when people like brauer, who are the literall 1% of the game, are complaining about others being comp stomped by the 1% then its laughable and he is part of the problem himself, if he is in qp. he does not need to play devils advocate if he is not on the recieving end. Question is, if he is here, with his friends, and he is part of the problem, why is he even in qp in the first place then with the friends? and if he isn't, why does he, as the 1% player even care if we others get sealclubbed? its a fake talk, lets be honest here

If you cared to look at my stats you would see that I have generally dropped somewhere between 100-300 times into solo queue a season. I don't particularly care to drop into a group mode completely alone, so I'm currently only dropping with groups of friends. I'm fairly confident that will bring down my total number of matches, and at the very least heavily influence how I play. I don't particularly care for that change. I also am concerned by the complete abandonment of the matchmaker and the way quick play has been turned into a group mode when so many players over this game's lifetime have complained about strong players stomping them into the ground.

And thank you for claiming I'm lying or being disingenuous. I'm not. Just because I am playing to the current meta does not mean that I am not concerned about the impact of this change.

Re: FW, it is hardly the "hard mode" you make it out to be. If I drop with one friend we can usually carry a PUG against PUG match. Heck we can even carry matches against 8-12 player groups of some of the less effective units out there, particularly if we randomly get another decent player or two on our team. If we dropped 8-12 players from comp teams I've been on I'm confident we'd only lose to the absolute best comp and FW groups out there, and most likely only if they dropped in a large group.

Also, thanks for telling me to leave solo queue, that really goes to show that you are so open-minded and have the interests of the community at heart. Looking forward to finding you in queue.

Larsh, on 04 May 2020 - 11:21 AM, said:

Urg, I feel partially to blame that this phrase even caught on, and I wish it wasn't used anymore really.

I said this when I was in a more heated mindset, and didn't think straight. Should've said something like this instead:

"We play to win, and as a team, but we don't get upset if we lose. We play on to the next match to see how we can change our playstyle and improve. We enjoy playing against the odds.

In some ways we miss playing with the higher players in MWO. It gave us a challenge, and goal to aspire to. Imagine like trying to defeat a hard as hell boss in another game"

Kinda wordy, but better explains the mindset of the whole "don't care if we lose" thing going around. It's not about going in without a goal to win, but to have the mindset to not get angry when your group strategy doesn't go as planned.

Plenty of other players have shared the "I don't care if we win or lose" sentiment, so know that it's not really about you at this point. It's helpful to hear your perspective on what your group wants of course, but I'm not specifically mentioning you here. Einher, for example, has claimed that "W/L is irrelevant" mindset, and I've seen it in plenty of other places on these forums and reddit.

[Capt Deadpool]

VonBruinwald, on 04 May 2020 - 09:55 AM, said:

WE NEED A DOUBLE-ENDED MATCHMAKER!

On one end we have the solos,
In the middle we have small groups (2-4),
On the other we have large groups (5-12),

The matchmaker pulls matches from both end:

On one side it pulls solos, when it runs out of solos it starts pulling Small groups to top up the number of players.
On the other side it pulls groups L->S when it runs out of group players it uses solos to fill the holes.

Solos play solos, groups play groups and the only time it pulls from the other is when population is insufficient, and the odd occasions where all other matches are filled.

How you match tier in all that.... who cares, tier is already broken.

Quoted for awesome creativity.

A potential issue I see is that, though there are indeed a huger number of low-skill Tier 1 players because XP Bar, I did create an alt recently, and matches populated by Tier 4-5 players are going to be very, very painful for anyone that has been playing for awhile.

Bad Tier 1 players still understand basic game mechanics by virtue of at least having grinded that XP bar; Tier 4-5 team/lance formations are like watching headless chickens running around and will have you praying for even the semblance of a nascar.

And, of course, vice versa; Tier 4-5 players will have a terrible time dying instantly to higher tier players.

Low overall game population combined with the fact that good players will always group up with each other are the primary issues, as I see it. This is simply human nature in a competitive environment; I have played basketball for many years and when I play pickup, I am picking up and getting picked up by other guys who can ball. Lebron and Anthony Davis didn't team up to make things 'fair' or 'competitive', and they still wanted Kawhi Leonard to join their team... (Go Pelicans, BTW.)

But I do think some combination of tier-based match-making combined with match-making that seeks to place groups against groups and solos against solos will be the ultimate solution. And due to low population, competitive/fair games are probably only/mostly going to be found during peak hours, unless off-peak players are going to be tolerable of longer wait times.

Props to all those both in forums and in-game who know how to maintain a positive, constructive attitude, even if you are feeling frustrated, as we all sometimes do. A helpful reminder before you type or say something over the internet, maybe ask yourself if it is something you would say to someone in person.

Edited by Capt Deadpool, 04 May 2020 - 11:39 AM.

[Knight Captain Morgan]

Larsh, on 04 May 2020 - 11:21 AM, said:

We play on to the next match to see how we can change our playstyle and improve. We enjoy playing against the odds.

Unless you got stomped due to allowing premades to farm PUGERZ then you just rage quit like any sensible casual soloer does which is EXACTLY what will happen over these 4 weeks of "TRIAL" period which let's face it, Russ has already determined will be a PERNANENT change damned what the data says because (of epic) reasons...

[Larsh]

Brauer, on 04 May 2020 - 11:33 AM, said:

Plenty of other players have shared the "I don't care if we win or lose" sentiment, so know that it's not really about you at this point. It's helpful to hear your perspective on what your group wants of course, but I'm not specifically mentioning you here. I've seen it in plenty of other places on these forums and reddit.

Ok cool. Let's just say I'm conditioned to think its about me from all the flak I took early on when stating my sentiments.

Shame that others are still saying it without clearing up what they might mean. MWO is a team based game after all. If a player is going in not thinking of assisting the other 11 players, then they really aren't helping matters.

[Weeny Machine]

Nesutizale, on 04 May 2020 - 09:31 AM, said:

The fun part about sync dropping is that those people want to team up, why else syncdrop?

I will give you a hint: At least for some it is the same reason they form a 4 men group and then still try to get some solo friends in by sync dropping as well

Edited by Weeny Machine, 04 May 2020 - 11:50 AM.

[Larsh]

Damn, I'll come back when things have settled, and we get back on topic.

Back to my rollback. Place in a poll, or something to that effect, in the game splash screen that I mentioned earlier. And keep the forums open and such for open discussion.

[Brauer]

Einherier96, on 04 May 2020 - 12:03 PM, said:

Of course brauer likes it, it is exactly that mindset that forces half of the player types out of this game. I don't shame you for wanting to win no matter what, but you wanna shame me for enjoying the game differently then you do? thats a new low, and you are allready pretty low with how you tried to slander and insult me. But well, I guess thanks for the prime example of how achiever can actively push away other player types.

Wow, you really have a problem with me for some reason huh? I don't think it's unfair to expect every member of a team to do their best to drive a win in each drop. Now what my best looks like is quite a bit different from some of the absolute top players I've had the pleasure to play with, and it's different for an 80th percentile player, or a 60th percentile player, but that's fine. What's toxic in my opinion is dropping into a match with no intention of trying to help your team. There's no real point in dropping into a match if you aren't trying to win. I've done some objectively dumb stuff while playing this game (12 urbies wave 1 on Grim Potico, theme drops into GroupQ, etc.), but I go into those trying to leverage what we have to win.

FYI if you go back and look at who was speaking out against this change in the first place there were a LOT of high level players who came out against it. I just happen to have stuck around longer than the others

[VonBruinwald]

VonBruinwald, on 04 May 2020 - 09:55 AM, said:

WE NEED A DOUBLE-ENDED MATCHMAKER!

On one end we have the solos,
In the middle we have small groups (2-4),
On the other we have large groups (5-12),

The matchmaker pulls matches from both end:

On one side it pulls solos, when it runs out of solos it starts pulling Small groups to top up the number of players.
On the other side it pulls groups L->S when it runs out of group players it uses solos to fill the holes.

Solos play solos, groups play groups and the only time it pulls from the other is when population is insufficient, and the odd occasions where all other matches are filled.

How you match tier in all that.... who cares, tier is already broken.

Capt Deadpool, on 04 May 2020 - 11:33 AM, said:

Quoted for awesome creativity.

A potential issue I see is that, though there are indeed a huger number of low-skill Tier 1 players because XP Bar, I did create an alt recently, and matches populated by Tier 4-5 players are going to be very, very painful for anyone that has been playing for awhile.

Bad Tier 1 players still understand basic game mechanics by virtue of at least having grinded that XP bar; Tier 4-5 team/lance formations are like watching headless chickens running around and will have you praying for even the semblance of a nascar.

And, of course, vice versa; Tier 4-5 players will have a terrible time dying instantly to higher tier players.

Low overall game population combined with the fact that good players will always group up with each other are the primary issues, as I see it. This is simply human nature in a competitive environment; I have played basketball for many years and when I play pickup, I am picking up and getting picked up by other guys who can ball. Lebron and Anthony Davis didn't team up to make things 'fair' or 'competitive', and they still wanted Kawhi Leonard to join their team... (Go Pelicans, BTW.)

But I do think some combination of tier-based match-making combined with match-making that seeks to place groups against groups and solos against solos will be the ultimate solution. And due to low population, competitive/fair games are probably only/mostly going to be found during peak hours, unless off-peak players are going to be tolerable of longer wait times.

Props to all those both in forums and in-game who know how to maintain a positive, constructive attitude, even if you are feeling frustrated, as we all sometimes do. A helpful reminder before you type or say something over the internet, maybe ask yourself if it is something you would say to someone in person.

I know I jested about the tier system being broken (it is) but assuming we had a functioning one it wouldn't be difficult to still have it tier restricted with expanding brackets.

Solo single tier -> Solo +1 tiers -> Solo all tiers -> Group all tiers (filling S->L)
Group single tier (L->S) -> Group +1 tiers -> Group all tiers -> All solos.

I'd also suggest doing away with large groups (5 or more players) entirely if we combined in this manner, if people want to 12 man they can still do so in FW, it also makes it easier for the MM to split groups between teams more easily.

[nicedj84]

the assault mechs were already uncomfortable to play,and now you've finished them off with your mixed respawn! I quit the game!

[RickySpanish]

Group queue shouldn't have been shut down, gq should cater to players who want to fight other groups exclusively, at a high level of play. That way, solo queue can benefit from small groups also participating, although I suspect squads of Riflemen IICs would still find some reason to drop in solo. You know, for science.

Edited by RickySpanish, 04 May 2020 - 01:11 PM.

[Thorqemada]

To lower the hopes that Elo is magically fixing everything (from another thread):

There is the thing - we had Elo!
There is another thing - there were many vocal advocats against Elo (and it hat objective flaws)!
There is another thing - one of the reasons was High Elo Players long wait times and competitive pressure!
There is another thing - that PGI finally succumbed and developed PSR!

Why had Elo a long wait time (for High Elo Players)?
Bcs there were not many High Elo Players outside the Primetime.
Which also made them combat the same opponents quite often...

Why had it competitive pressure?
Bcs the High Elo Player would be paired with many lower Elo Players forming a Team with quite a Skillgap that the the High Elo Player had to fill - he had to carry his Team, so allways using the best equip and utmost skill he could offer or get wrecked.

Then came the PSR experience bar...

But going back to Elo, or something along that line, will obviously not help the game...it will only bring back old Problems thrown at a way smaller Playerbase this time...

Edited by Thorqemada, 04 May 2020 - 01:39 PM.

[ccrider]

The saddest thing here is that mixed queues could have been a positive way to introduce new players into MWO. Instead, certain folks feel the need to drop in a farm solos to show what a bad idea this was. The reason it's a bad idea is because of the very people claiming they were against it absolutely abusing the ever-living **** out of it. By all means, drop with your friends, but for ***** sake, take some goddam derp builds and lighten up. Farming 12 solos proves nothing except that you can farm 12 solos. This isn't some high end game with a healthy competitive presence or pro teams with sponsors; its a niche stompy robot game for nerds who like pretending to drive 2 legged monster trucks with guns. If I feel like playing hardcore comp ****, I play ranked R6 siege or tourneys in LOL. If I wanna tool around in a ******* robot with my brain turned off, I play MWO. It's a fun way to kill time. Stop taking it so seriously. Just relax, shoot robots and hang with your buddies. Save the coordinated drops for comp tourneys where you are playing against equal teams and the wins mean something; the solo queue stomps aren't improving anyone's skill unless gunning down people who can't torso twist helps you win comp matches. Then I apologize and will retract my statement. But I'm gonna guess that most comp teams don't just march straight, huddle in a ball or stare at 4 enemy mechs while alpha striking a bracket build.

[Knight Captain Morgan]

Nesutizale, on 04 May 2020 - 09:37 AM, said:

First of that will be noticeable very, very fast when the match times are up to 30min again you know that something is very wrong.

Why would that be so noticeable? There have been more than a few "my friends & I just wanna have causal drops together" Posters claiming their friends have reinstalled & come back to the game because of this 1 change... surely they aren't lying are they?

secondly you and so many others are falseley claiming that 1 sided stomps aren't up as much as would be believed so surely your experiences could be chalked up to whatever you've been smoking to convince yourselves of this collective lie, right?

[Anomalocaris]

ccrider, on 04 May 2020 - 01:45 PM, said:

The saddest thing here is that mixed queues could have been a positive way to introduce new players into MWO. Instead, certain folks feel the need to drop in a farm solos to show what a bad idea this was. The reason it's a bad idea is because of the very people claiming they were against it absolutely abusing the ever-living **** out of it. By all means, drop with your friends, but for ***** sake, take some goddam derp builds and lighten up. Farming 12 solos proves nothing except that you can farm 12 solos. This isn't some high end game with a healthy competitive presence or pro teams with sponsors; its a niche stompy robot game for nerds who like pretending to drive 2 legged monster trucks with guns. If I feel like playing hardcore comp ****, I play ranked R6 siege or tourneys in LOL. If I wanna tool around in a ******* robot with my brain turned off, I play MWO. It's a fun way to kill time. Stop taking it so seriously. Just relax, shoot robots and hang with your buddies. Save the coordinated drops for comp tourneys where you are playing against equal teams and the wins mean something; the solo queue stomps aren't improving anyone's skill unless gunning down people who can't torso twist helps you win comp matches. Then I apologize and will retract my statement. But I'm gonna guess that most comp teams don't just march straight, huddle in a ball or stare at 4 enemy mechs while alpha striking a bracket build.

You haven't been watching the twitch streams, have you? It doesn't matter what the good players drop with. If they're in a 4-man they're crushing the other guys 8-9 times out of 10. Good players influence matches when they're 1 of 24. Allow them to group up and they're not 4 times as powerful, its more like 8-16x more. Just the facts. Skill matters and groups are strength multipliers.

[wasder undapants]

Not that it will make any difference, but this test has brought a couple of us friends who used to play together often back into MWO because we can now drop together in odd small numbers far more easily. I played solo over the years after my friends had stopped playing, and getting poorly balanced games and stomps has not changed at all in my opinion due to this queue combination test. The actual change we are discussing here is a good thing as it allows more players to play more flexibly.

What IS the real problem is a match maker that is not fit for purpose. If you want new solo players to enjoy the game, develop their skills and stay with the game (which lets face it we all need or this game dies soon) then the match maker and tier levels need to be sorted out, not preventing 3 or 4 friends from playing together. Lets face it, in the old system people could be communicating on chat and calling targets etc if they wanted to, so a few friends playing together should no bias the game as much as it does. The only reason it may bias the game is because players who are still learning the game happen to be playing alongside those small groups - and thats got nothing to do with group and solo mixed.

In short, don't rage against this change, its the only reason a fair few people are back playing this game now. Rage against how skills levels/experience levels/stat levels are matched up to create the rounds - thats the problem. I am in tier 1 and I am fully behind a full tier reset and a completely overhauled system if it means we can in a few weeks/months get to a place with better match making.

[Horseman]

VonBruinwald, on 04 May 2020 - 07:10 AM, said:

Is there a ratio at where we say an unfair game is acceptable. At what point are we ok with 1/x?

At a point where the matchmaker did everything possible to equalize both sides and the difference cannot be reduced further.

Anomalocaris, on 04 May 2020 - 07:34 AM, said:

Lol, I find it funny that elite players are concerned about not driving off players while you are all for getting rid of them. I was always told it was the other way around.

This isn't new. Remember when solo pugs were complaining about FP being too hard and their bright ideas were to penalize groups or abolish them entirely?

FRAGTAST1C, on 04 May 2020 - 08:02 AM, said:

While the idea is good, it's better to use factual evidence to make changes to the game rather than the voting system based on opinions and personal feelings/experience, 'cause we all know what happens when [Redacted] vote now, don't we?

One thing where subjective experience can count is finding a balance that minimizes the number of players dissatisfied with the quality of matchmaking.

Alreech, on 04 May 2020 - 08:59 AM, said:

PGI mad Solaris especially for competetive players what want to play solo.

Solaris is a ghost town most of the time, and playing most of your matches in a given division iagainst the same exact 1-2 guys tends to get stale fast.

Spare Knight, on 04 May 2020 - 09:05 AM, said:

So, how do you "hold your tier at 3" and how does that make you any different from smurfing?

Evidence indicates it is by barely playing for past three months: https://leaderboard....h?u=Einherier96
The only alternative to that would be deliberately throwing matches, and I'd hope he has enough self-respect not to engage in that disgusting practice.

Einherier96, on 04 May 2020 - 09:12 AM, said:

just out of pure curiosity. when do you think it will get boring for these people to easily stomp others? surely, some enjoy it,

Their choice is between that or quitting the game. And as much as you'd like them to quit so that you can become one of the new top dogs in their place, I doubt that is going to happen any time soon.

Quote

trying to look at the start of a test of something and then declaring results is a pretty close minded mindset, don't you agree?

Anyone can make predictions. Question is, whose are correct.
So far, the predictions about imbalanced matchmaking, increased stomps and heavy impact of groups did hold true.

Quote

for some people it doesn't matter if they loose, the question is how we played in the match, how we loosed. I can loose all day long if i go out of the match in a blaze of glory

If you genuinely are, kudos to you. For most people, getting repeatedly stomped will demoralize them - especially so it they repeatedly see their teams throwing matches by making easily avoided mistakes.

VonBruinwald, on 04 May 2020 - 09:55 AM, said:

WE NEED A DOUBLE-ENDED MATCHMAKER!
(snip)
Solos play solos, groups play groups and the only time it pulls from the other is when population is insufficient, and the odd occasions where all other matches are filled.
How you match tier in all that.... who cares, tier is already broken.

I believe something like that was described before, yes.
Arguably, the matchmaker doesn't need to force filling groups first, just sort the players / groups by whatever is the chosen performance metric (however "exact" it should be - ie player-scale or for each individual mech variant) and alternate assigning between both teams. The advantage of this approach is that bad groups (and they do exist, I've seen a "group" of two assaults and a medium do around 200 damage... combined) still get paired with players that match their competence the closest rather than get thrown into the grinder against high performers.
Then from the sorted players build a potential match "from the top" and another "from the bottom".
Try to equalize the two teams for each of those matches by swapping out solos from the lower-performing team for higher-performing ones from the other until the difference between teams is minimized.
Then pick whichever of the two has a smaller performance difference.
Bam, there's your matchmaker.
Tier doesn't really matter in all that, since using player performance is a better metric to begin with.

CFC Conky, on 04 May 2020 - 10:00 AM, said:

In many other games, I’ll borrow the example of combat flight sims, once you are shot down you can immediately spawn back into the same match, for as long as said match lasts. The benefit to new and/or less talented players is that if they are killed in the first few seconds/minutes, they can immediately re-join the match, which is good if they are playing with friends.

Removing death as a consequence means a certain type of player will build their mechs to repeatedly suicide rush.
We've seen that in FP before, not a pretty picture.
As is, if they die in a match and don't want to observe the rest of it (or, god forbid, provide intel to their team on comms), they can select another mech and requeue immediately.