1579 replies to this topic

[OmniFail]

Ekson Valdez, on 18 May 2020 - 10:46 PM, said:

[mod]@Everyone, please stay away from personal attacks and focus on constructive discussion.[/mod]

Where were you in the LRM and Armor Sharing threads when I was being curb stomped.

Edited by OmniFail, 19 May 2020 - 05:27 AM.

[Anomalocaris]

OmniFail, on 19 May 2020 - 05:23 AM, said:

Where were you in the LRM and Armor Sharing threads when I was being curb stomped.

PGI had no dogs in that fight, so laissez-faire on the moderation. Generally how it works.

[Anomalocaris]

DAEDALOS513, on 18 May 2020 - 01:59 PM, said:

My win/loss has gone up lately because I rarely played solo queue before now.. it was all faction play and I don't think w/l is tracked in faction is it? Even so, game frequency is much lower in faction than soup games . I took a year off from the game and got back about 2-3 months ago.. when i got back i was thrilled to see 8v8 implemented shortly after, so we could now drop with mates.. except matches were ending way too quick leaving me unsatisfied. It reminded me somewhat of scouting mode. So although I played some 8v8 action, and solo queue being just as painful as always, I still stuck with faction play for the most part.

Soup queue is a huge improvement and the fact that some of you guys are fighting to get that horrible, chaotic freak show of a game mode back (that had about the same number of stomps as soup; that has as much chance to make actually make a player worse because of the horrible gameplay.. is beyond me..

Honestly, it can't get much more casual than it is now.. unless you want to go back to players aimlessly wandering around, nascaring almost every match and no comms.. I experienced players raging much more in solo queue than in soup.

So if my w/l has gone up as you say it's because I'm playing it much more lately. Not because I'm deliberately farming by taking 3 others and dropping meta.. I feel filthy taking meta like some other units solely do (I won't name names but you'd think at their level they wouldn't have to but that ego of theirs is hard to overcome i guess). Half the time I'm solo'ing in non meta, the other half I'm in a group of 2 or 3 taking non-meta and trying to make it work using lance tactics.

I've lost my share of games, but ofcourse you wouldn't know because you don't even play the game..

Corrections to your post:

1) You were gone from solo queue (at least) for 6 months, not a year. Could do a whole post on the implications of that, especially vis-à-vis your parting shot, but I won't.

2) Per PGI there are more stomps since merge queue. Stomps being defined as a 12-4 or worse match of course. Let's not tiptoe around that

3) I compared your WLR to your previous 6 months of play. It's up 33% and it's higher than it's been in years (and climbed more since my first post). And I've been tracking your progress, along with a few others, throughout the merge. You were actually at over 3.0 WLR until you started playing more solo matches. I've seen you on a lot of streams from different high skill streamers. Usually on the opposing team, and in many of those you were in group.

Not to put to fine a point on it, but winning is fun, and you're winning more in merge. It's understandable, but you're winning more because the matches are unbalanced. How can I tell?

A) Your match score hasn't changed much vs. your average for the previous 6 months of play. You're about a 340-350 AMS player (which is pretty darn good).
Your WLR is up substantially. You've only ever once broken 2.0 WLR and given how many group drops you used to run (where I dropped with you), that was probably a big part of hitting 2.0. Remember group and solo both contributed to your leaderboard stats, faction did not.
C) We know that good groups have a substantial advantage in merge queue and when they drop they unbalance matches unless a similar quality group is on the other side. As I said, I've spectated plenty of matches you've been a part of as a group member.

I do find it amusing that you hated the "horrible, chaotic freak show of a game mode" though. I liked it, oh it had flaws, but I was still playing. You quit the game for 6 months, but now PGI (and folks like you) want to change the one mode people were still playing to favor your playstyle. You don't see the least little bit of irony in that though, do you?

Edit - BTW, I noticed that a lot of your posts were ghosted. I disagree with this. Whatever is said should be left out there IMO. There is no bad speech.

Edited by Anomalocaris, 19 May 2020 - 06:09 AM.

[Excessive Paranoia]

Anomalocaris, on 19 May 2020 - 05:47 AM, said:

I do find it amusing that you hated the "horrible, chaotic freak show of a game mode" though. I liked it, oh it had flaws, but I was still playing. You quit the game for 6 months, but now PGI (and folks like you) want to change the one mode people were still playing to favor your playstyle. You don't see the least little bit of irony in that though, do you?

I think you've just put to words probably one of the most important points of this whole discussion... The solo queue is the last mode still populated enough to keep the game afloat... More importantly though, it was always going to be the last mode with a population because its the mode people have preferred from the beginning. Per PGI's own stats from all the way back in 2014, only 16% of all drops were groups. I don't think we can say for sure without more data from PGI, but I do think its a safe bet that proportion only ever went down from that point. There might have been a bump after the Steam launch, but lets face it, group queue has been dead for years... Even before I left in 2017 you didn't stand much of a chance of getting matches quickly unless you were a 12-man and that often meant running into an opposing 12-man of comp players.

Fast forward to now and PGI have actually decided the best possible thing they could do for the game is to force group play into the last place people actually play the game. PGI's own statistics show that people in the solo queue have always been there primarily by choice, and now they're literally losing that choice. And what are people going to do when they lose the option to play solo queue for real... Choose to leave...

Here's a thought btw... if groups want to play with each other so badly, but there aren't enough people dropping in that queue to even make an 8v8 work (BTW this is something that should have given PGI all the information they ever needed as to just how many people actually play group queue compared to how many people choose solo queue), then give groups a 4v4 mode to play. Anyone who's happy with the 4v4 +16 we have now should be perfectly happy trimming away all the dead weight complicating their play, and the not so great players who want to group, well... I'm sorry, but the solo queue shouldn't have to take a quad-ppc to the face just so you don't have to face comp lances in group queue...

EDIT/PS: If there aren't even enough people to make a 4v4 work, then really, all it shows is that PGI is willing to torch their own player base so that something like 1% of players can "play with their buddies"...

Edited by Excessive Paranoia, 19 May 2020 - 06:51 AM.

[Horseman]

Excessive Paranoia, on 19 May 2020 - 06:13 AM, said:

then give groups a 4v4 mode to play.

#MakeScoutingGreatAgain

[Excessive Paranoia]

Knight Captain Morgan, on 19 May 2020 - 03:24 AM, said:

that's way more tries than me. Logic told me what to expect and it only took 1 match to confirm (0-12). Uninstalled, been looking for a replacement game since. Tried MW5 on the xbox game pass, but missions are way to repetitive.

3%

I'm almost right there with you... My game experience is essentially a dumpster fire right now and I actually have to push myself to drop a few times every day or two. I wouldn't even bother, but I'd just come back to the game after years away with a bug for the big stompies, so I'm having a little trouble just turning right back around and leaving. I'm also hoping (idk why though...) that PGI are going to stick to the original plan of this just being a 4-week test and then after the test is up, we'll go back to the old system while they assess the data and/or come up with more ideas. That said, if I'd been playing for a while already before the test, I'd probably have been much more amiable to just sitting it out, or even just not installing in the first place had I decided to come back and found the test ongoing.

Of course, if the change is made permanent as-is, then 100% I'm out the door on the day of the announcement. I value match quality and this system is literally incapable of providing it, so with it in place permanently, there's not even a reason to begrudgingly continue dropping.

[FRAGTAST1C]

Horseman, on 19 May 2020 - 06:32 AM, said:

#MakeScoutingGreatAgain

I never got to experience Scouting at all. I built a stable of over 130 mechs now, few unskilled still but the point is that I bought those mechs with C-bills, MC, Collector's Packs, Dropship Deals, etc., bought MC consistently, always ran PT and what-not and finally, when I can keep play FW consistently, it goes dead 'cause of PGI. Let's forget about Scouting 'cause the entire mode was removed.

[DAEDALOS513]

Knight Captain Morgan, on 19 May 2020 - 03:24 AM, said:

that's way more tries than me. Logic told me what to expect and it only took 1 match to confirm (0-12). Uninstalled, been looking for a replacement game since. Tried MW5 on the xbox game pass, but missions are way to repetitive.

3%

There were just as many stomps in regular solo queue; but the quality of the non-stomp matches have gone up immensely. Looks like your mind was made up before your mech even touched the ground. Too bad..

Edited by DAEDALOS513, 19 May 2020 - 08:07 AM.

[Kin3ticX]

Some of whats happening is people are losing in the mechlab, losing in the game, and then instead of going back to the mechlab, they go to the forums.

[FRAGTAST1C]

DAEDALOS513, on 19 May 2020 - 08:05 AM, said:

There were just as many stomps in regular solo queue; but the quality of the non-stomp matches have gone up immensely. Looks like your mind was made up before your mech even touched the ground. Too bad..

Since the number of stomps has increased, even by PGI's faulty data, do you really think that your point is valid?

Kin3ticX, on 19 May 2020 - 08:30 AM, said:

Some of whats happening is people are losing in the mechlab, losing in the game, and then instead of going back to the mechlab, they go to the forums.

Oh, yeah. The deflection has hit the streets now.

[Horseman]

FRAGTAST1C, on 19 May 2020 - 07:40 AM, said:

I never got to experience Scouting at all. I built a stable of over 130 mechs now, few unskilled still but the point is that I bought those mechs with C-bills, MC, Collector's Packs, Dropship Deals, etc., bought MC consistently, always ran PT and what-not and finally, when I can keep play FW consistently, it goes dead 'cause of PGI. Let's forget about Scouting 'cause the entire mode was removed.

It was a 4v4 mode that was rather more involved - and more unique - than just "blow up the other side" or "take and hold a pre-determined position".
I still remember those last-second hunts for the drop zone (or rushing for the DZ because your team got the objective but you're the last survivor). Good times.

If there was a queue for 4v4s, Scouting would be a shoe-in. Hell, with small teams even bloody Escort might actually make sense (both sides having less map control and less firepower to just delete the VIP with)

[n00biwan]

(I posted this in the steam discussion and thought I'd repost here since it was slightly less pointless)

I think it's good for the game.

Not just because players can drop easily with friends and matchmaking is faster.

A few extra stomps will happen (/are happening).

A few solos will cry that it's unfair that 4 IV4s in the enemy alpha just trashed most of their team.

A lot more players will experience, like it or not, how the game is meant to be played, as a team. The way to counter teamwork is with your own. Anything "they" can do, so can you.

Having the 3 piranha premade on your team doesn't mean automatic victory. Plenty of groups think they will be the deciding factor in the match and ignore the other 8, leading to losses. Solo PUGs aren't all blind amoebas in lore based, bracket builds. It's about taking what you have, and using a little coordination.

Been playing a fair bit in the last few weeks, mostly solo, in T1 and 3. I'm strictly average at QP in T1 but can carry a game in T3 fairly often.

I won't lie, it's been a little rougher, but mostly bad losses are due to poor coordination; poorly timed nascar, minimap fails, lack of aggression at the right time (with a little event driven kill mobbing/squirrel chasing). Try some teamwork, it's not just for comp teams.

This whole thing just requires some adjustment and learning, which in a game that has been the same for a long time is probably shocking to many.


I'm a 90% solo player and am happy with these changes, despite the harsh edge, but then, I always preferred faction, which has it's own reputation. I feel like match/play quality is up in both tiers I play in (despite sometimes the good play being on the OTHER team) and I like it.



2 further points:
If the original comment is meant for the devs (OP) then you probably should either add to the official thread on the MWO Forums announcements section or tweet at Russ since the Devs don't really anything with the communication or the reading. (Following my own advice)

Any solo player can become a part of a premade with a few minutes on chat in game, giving you the same access to coordinated builds and having "reliable" teammates.

[Knight Captain Morgan]

n00biwan, on 19 May 2020 - 09:32 AM, said:

A lot more players will experience, like it or not, how the game is meant to be played, as a team. The way to counter teamwork is with your own. Anything "they" can do, so can you.

Having the 3 piranha premade on your team doesn't mean automatic victory. Plenty of groups think they will be the deciding factor in the match and ignore the other 8, leading to losses. Solo PUGs aren't all blind amoebas in lore based, bracket builds. It's about taking what you have, and using a little coordination.


Any solo player can become a part of a premade with a few minutes on chat in game, giving you the same access to coordinated builds and having "reliable" teammates.

Well that certainly explains why solo queue was mostly dead before and players had to go to group queue or faction war if they wanted to get drops pre-merge

[Mahavishna]

Rac 2s need a nurf of some type. They are far too OP... they need a heat nurf, or a ammo nurf or a jam nurf... People are just stacking them now and its ridiculous.

[MODOK69]

Been playing MWO long enough (2 yrs) to understand that the player base is dropping. I'm not a gamer so there was a steep learning curve but I got to the point where I was consistently up 30-40 wins and 15-25 positive KDR at the end of each month when I checked the leaderboard. So I would say that I'm an average player. Since this experiment has started my wins and KDR has dropped dramatically! Different factors play into this some I can control such as adapting and some I can't. The I can'ts are in the bullets below, but the bottom line is its not fun anymore!

- Solo que is a "pick up" game! When you allow meta teams with meta builds there is no balance in either team composition or game play!!!! I've seen these teams consistently decimate the opposition in a match or adversely go off and do their own thing and getting your team killed.

- I'm not sure why you are not throwing groups into faction play instead?!? From what I see Faction play is what needs the reduced que times, and group/team builds fit right into it. It would also be a great time to address faction play issues.

- Fix Spawn locations!! I've noticed a huge increase in light mech play presumably because it is even easier to catch assaults/heavies out of position than before. I have been on both ends of this issue in matches and once again to balance/not fun.

- Commit to improving MWO! Band aid fixes are not going to save the game. I have heard the rumor that MW5 was going to turn into the new MWO. Gotta say this would be great and a perfect opportunity to address a lot of issues.

As of now I'm not gonna be playing MWO,. I'll check back in a month and see where things stands.

[DAEDALOS513]

Lockheed_, on 19 May 2020 - 09:15 AM, said:

It seems like I am the only one enjoying the new combined queue.
I have encountered a lot less nacaring, which by itself is worth it IMO, I have seen a lot more teams using other parts of the maps then just the old beaten path around the center, the matches seem more challenging which I greatly enjoy, I have been playing around 2+ hours every day which is actually quite a bit more then I would like to spend on gaming but I enjoy it so much.
Subjectively I'd say there are not more stomps than before, but that could be biased by me simply enjoying that the game feels different and it's not the same old same old anymore.

I'd be sad to see it reverted, although I am sure there would be some people around who would make it their job to drop in groups featuring extra cheesy configs just to "prove a point" as that seems to be the thing for some if they dont get their way. I witnessed that just the other day and found that behavior rather disappointing. Why people rather ruin the game intentionally than try to contribute and make people enjoy it more is a mystery to me.

You are hardly the only one enjoying it. It's just that the majority of those that come here and post their approval are never heard from again.. there are however a handful that are flooding the thread over and over, and over again, with their dissaproval of the change.. so to a casual passerby you would think you were the only one enjoying yourself.. you're not.

Edited by DAEDALOS513, 23 May 2020 - 07:21 PM.

[DAEDALOS513]

Horseman, on 19 May 2020 - 08:46 AM, said:

It was a 4v4 mode that was rather more involved - and more unique - than just "blow up the other side" or "take and hold a pre-determined position".
I still remember those last-second hunts for the drop zone (or rushing for the DZ because your team got the objective but you're the last survivor). Good times.

If there was a queue for 4v4s, Scouting would be a shoe-in. Hell, with small teams even bloody Escort might actually make sense (both sides having less map control and less firepower to just delete the VIP with)

I think there is enough player base for scout mode to work in this new environment.. maybe something they can patch in for a month to see how it goes?

FRAGTAST1C, on 19 May 2020 - 08:39 AM, said:

Since the number of stomps has increased, even by PGI's faulty data, do you really think that your point is valid?

To my eyes 5% is statistically insignificant especially when you consider drops are virtually instant.

[G3 Heathen]

has anyone seen a roadmap of what is comming down the road for mechwarrior 5? is a group play or solaris mode in the works? will it eventually a mode that will replace mwo? they renewed the mechwarrior rights i heard so i would like to hear what they plan to do with it.
any ways the new match maker has not made my win loss any different but the games have been quite different in many ways.
the spawn points where you have one light group and a heavy, assualt groups are now mixed which changes the way games start.
for instance the rush to the center maps (hpg, mining) sometimes affect which team gets there first.
on some other maps a slower mech will drop where a lighter mech usually does, and get caught out.
conquest maps on canyon you cant assume the the mech capping kappa are all lights or you will get supprised by a heavy that you were not expecting to be there yet.
what else?
the nascar seems to slow down a tad, with experienced players calling the shots. i noticed it is more likely that if you dont speak up you will have a lopsided game more offen than not. not allways of course you have the odd game where everyone knows what to do and the game kinda flows correctly and you do well with out to much communication. just you know "target alpha, atlas right torso" and not "flank right, form firing line, target bigs first. go!! "
sorry for rambling on.

[Kyoptik]

From an EU-timezone fan, I can only say thank you PGI, this is the first time group play with a friend of mine has been playable (<10 minute wait time) for over 6 months. I'd forgotten how much I love this game.

Apart from queue times consistently under 2 mins, there's been less Nascar, more team play, more communication and a return to the awesome fun I had when I first came to Mechwarrior Online. Please please keep the changes!

[Excessive Paranoia]

FRAGTAST1C, on 19 May 2020 - 07:40 AM, said:

I never got to experience Scouting at all. I built a stable of over 130 mechs now, few unskilled still but the point is that I bought those mechs with C-bills, MC, Collector's Packs, Dropship Deals, etc., bought MC consistently, always ran PT and what-not and finally, when I can keep play FW consistently, it goes dead 'cause of PGI. Let's forget about Scouting 'cause the entire mode was removed.

I only ever dropped into scouting a few times, but damn the people who focused on it were intense... Because of its link with regular faction play, the people who did scouting primarily really took it seriously and it was a lot of fun that wasn't just about milling down the other lance. On the other hand, I really don't think scouting would fit in the current climate as the go-to 4v4 mode. It needed more thought and planning than any of the QP modes, or even the regular faction play mode. That said, it would definitely be a nice addition along side a regular 4v4 QP mode... Heck even a 4v4 FP mode with respawns could be interesting.

Kin3ticX, on 19 May 2020 - 08:30 AM, said:

Some of whats happening is people are losing in the mechlab, losing in the game, and then instead of going back to the mechlab, they go to the forums.

As someone who had only ever played meta builds (My build crafting skills area about a good as an actual potato), and who's match quality is in the toilet now, I most definitely don't meet that description. I also don't think that this is actually happening as much as you think it might be. I do see more build diversity now, but I'm fairly certain that's because the tier valve is borked and so people are dropping in mechs that used to work for them in tiers 3-5, but now don't work because they're not only facing all the way up to T1, but organized pre-mades from T1. The problem is that those builds likely worked just fine in T5, so now that they don't, it leaves people scratching their heads as to why they aren't working anymore. The other thing to add to this is that likely many people don't follow the forums at all, or only in very limited way, so to them, matches may have gotten a lot worse without any real understanding as to why...

Horseman, on 19 May 2020 - 08:46 AM, said:

If there was a queue for 4v4s, Scouting would be a shoe-in. Hell, with small teams even bloody Escort might actually make sense (both sides having less map control and less firepower to just delete the VIP with)

I'd completely forgotten about Escort... IIRC sometimes the defending team wouldn't even be able to find the stupid VIP before he was killed...

Lockheed_, on 19 May 2020 - 09:15 AM, said:

I'd be sad to see it reverted, although I am sure there would be some people around who would make it their job to drop in groups featuring extra cheesy configs just to "prove a point" as that seems to be the thing for some if they dont get their way. I witnessed that just the other day and found that behavior rather disappointing. Why people rather ruin the game intentionally than try to contribute and make people enjoy it more is a mystery to me.

I think you're missing the point a little here... People aren't making cheese pre-mades to break the game, they're making cheese pre-mades because that's what coordinated pre-mades have almost always done (unless they were a group of pugs dropping into the group queue, but even then they'd usually try to coordinate complimentary builds), you're just seeing the fallout from mixing those cheese pre-mades into the solo queue. The problem is you literally can't stop people from doing it... even if you force every pre-made to just use lights, they'll still be able to use cheese builds.

n00biwan, on 19 May 2020 - 09:32 AM, said:

Been playing a fair bit in the last few weeks, mostly solo, in T1 and 3. I'm strictly average at QP in T1 but can carry a game in T3 fairly often.

I won't lie, it's been a little rougher, but mostly bad losses are due to poor coordination; poorly timed nascar, minimap fails, lack of aggression at the right time (with a little event driven kill mobbing/squirrel chasing). Try some teamwork, it's not just for comp teams.

Any solo player can become a part of a premade with a few minutes on chat in game, giving you the same access to coordinated builds and having "reliable" teammates.

Two very important things to keep in mind here...

1: Currently there is almost no tier separation. Whether you're dropping on T1 or T3, you're seeing the same people, even if they are T5.

2: If solo players wanted to group up like that all the time, they would have been doing it en masse for years. They have not. Forcing them to do it now just so a very small percent of the population can play with their buddies likely won't result in more groups, but less solo players.

DAEDALOS513, on 19 May 2020 - 12:57 PM, said:

To my eyes 5% is statistically insignificant especially when you consider drops are virtually instant.

Drops for me are not virtually instant. On average I'm still waiting at least 2 mins for a drop as a solo player and sometimes much longer. When combined with loading screens, selection screens, and the pre-match lobby, my average time to match is about 4 mins. I'd actually be fine with that, but thanks the the queue merge, now my average match time is about 5 mins... spending 4 mins waiting to only get 5 mins in a match that is also usually stomp is a terrible cost / benefit analysis.

That said, this is from wikipedia:
"The significance level for a study is chosen before data collection, and is typically set to 5% or much lower—depending on the field of study."

5% is literally the baseline for statistical significance from a scientific perspective. Yes, you are allowed to have your own opinion about what is a statistically significant difference, but 5% meets the actual definition of the term. I think many of us would also argue from our own play experience that these numbers offered up by Russ are not actually correct as we've been trying to drop into the game many times and have seen far more than 5% additional stomps. I hate to say it, but it would not be outside of the realm of possibility that PGI have found some way to read much worse data in a way that makes it look like there's only 5% more stomps, when in reality there may be 85% more stomps, but only if you include matches with groups in them. After all, it wouldn't be the first time that they have twisted test results to fit their development decisions...

Edited by Excessive Paranoia, 19 May 2020 - 04:11 PM.