1579 replies to this topic

[The Teddy Bear]

Anomalocaris, on 20 May 2020 - 12:40 PM, said:

Usually don't like to self quote, but I called it on the event. 3 straight events now, whereas there was no event the week prior to the merge. It's like PGI don't give a **** about player input but yet they still want to be able to somehow show that they were right to the same people they don't listen to....smh

The only event challenge that would make me grind, dropping solo and knowing I would get myself into a serious disadvantage every time I drop, would be the old fashion chassis challenges, top ten matches in the chassis.

[Excessive Paranoia]

"What’s your suggestion - we can’t split them again as the group queue can’t sustain itself. What would you do." - Russ Bullock - 17:01 05/18/2020

Whelp... proof to me that this "test" was never going back without massive player departures... Probably the only reason they even called it a "test" was to stop more people from pushing back heavily against it because they thought it wouldn't last. @PGI, you should take down the "News Item" calling this a "test" because all it does now it make you look like the liars you are...

EDIT: Just tried to drop a couple more matches... still wholly unenjoyable. Now that I've got confirmation that there is no reasonable expectation that this will ever change, I think I'm just going to call it and uninstall. No reason to waste time or energy on trying to change PGI's mind when they don't listen to their players anyway. And no reason to keep playing if matches are unbalanced and unenjoyable. So on that note, "So long and thanks for all the lurms"...

Edited by Excessive Paranoia, 20 May 2020 - 03:57 PM.

[50 50]

Anomalocaris, on 20 May 2020 - 10:38 AM, said:

"I stated several time that simply wasn’t an option- it would take far to many people opting in then was likely to make it work, then your also completely dependent on player behaviour to continue to opt in! Then lastly if all the above worked it means solo queue suffering."

I'm going to agree with his statement.
When the queues were split waaaay back whenever, had the option been available then it might have worked.
But to try so now when there was no one left in group queue would simply mean a handful of solo players who were interested in this opt in would not get a game anyway.
We would need twice as many players or more.

Anomalocaris, on 20 May 2020 - 10:38 AM, said:

1) You have a mode that can't survive on its own because no one plays it as is (Russ says it won't survive).
2) Despite a somewhat successful bump in players after going 8v8, that test was cancelled almost immediately with no feedback given
3) Opt-in is not going to fly because either (A) not enough people would do it to make it work or (B if enough did it would hurt solo queue - and it would be completely dependent on player behavior.....

That testing period for the 8v8 was probably a bit short, however in the limited time it was running it did remain difficult to get a game in different timezones.
Down here in AU, my experience of it was pretty limited but from what I was hearing it did not make a significant enough impact.
It's a bit like Faction Play in that sense.
Having a mode that you can only play between certain hours once a week..... the majority don't bother and just end up playing other games entirely.

So a solo player opt in to group queue might look like it works in certain timezones but may have little to no effect elsewhere and when you look at the stats for a queue and see it was absolutely banging for 4 hours but dead for 20 you would say it's not viable.

Excessive Paranoia, on 20 May 2020 - 01:47 PM, said:

"What’s your suggestion - we can’t split them again as the group queue can’t sustain itself. What would you do." - Russ Bullock - 17:01 05/18/2020

Been saying it for a while: variable team sizes.

Use the lances as a building block.
Have the match maker run on the one minute timer like FP does.
Try and create a match of 12v12, failing that, try 8v8, failing that 4v4, failing that wait another minute.

We should not be so hung up on the game only allowing 12v12 but nor should the game be hard limited to the team sizes.
If it always builds a team one lance at a time: Alpha, Bravo, Charlie.
If we always have the same 1/1/1/1 weight class restriction per lance.

Surely that would give the system enough flexibility to cater for fluctuating player numbers each minute 24 hours / 7 days a week combined with the restrictions of splitting players by PSR and the weight class limitation on teams.

Oh, and ditch the regional servers.
Bugger it.

[FRAGTAST1C]

DAEDALOS513, on 20 May 2020 - 11:01 AM, said:

It's not personal experience... I'm talking about the actual figure of 5% that you mentioned.. to me that miniscule number isn't going to sway me either way..

Glad you've made up your mind. But again, you're wrong on many levels 'cause your opinions are based on nothing but more opinions. Try digging up the data first; evidence helps, facts matter more. You know why? You state that the number of stomps, according to your personal experience, hasn't increased whatsoever, whereas, others state the opposite. THIS is why we need to go off of facts and not personal experience. I hope you can finally realize why opinions don't matter in these cases.

[Knight Captain Morgan]

Russ: if people are given the option to not get roflstomped by premade comp teams they won’t play so we’ll have to force them to get roflstomped by premade comp teams because it’s the only way to get them to play

Ummm... I see no flaw in your logic.... LULZORZ

[Magic Pain Glove]

Deadlos513 I really like how you are trying to completely disregard the Russ Bollock's statement and experience of bunch of other people ready to provide screenshots and multiple different 8 hour stream vods .

To you everyone's experience is subjective , despite providing heaps of evidence ( as mentioned above) but your's is not ? I am yet to see your provide any other proof other than your subjective feeling . Its kinda funny how you dont apply same logic and disregard your own experience.

What's really rich is that you do this while almost insultingly telling people to "improve". I watched Proton come back and fail to maintain a positive WLR in the soup queue and he's a better player than both you and me (Once again you dont give a s*** and wont look it up) . Go solo and sync up next time against my 4 man , each time you lose spend 2 hours in the academy "improving" and then do it again. Because hey , that's gonna be the reason why you lost.

Stop doing mental gymnastics and just say you like the change and don't mind the drawbacks of the new matchmaker that much. It's fine we get it , you are not alone and other people exist with similar opinion . But let others discuss the drawbacks without screaming "SUBJECTIVE" (while not providing counter evidence ) and "IMPROVE" ( I dare you to tell people like Proton to improve and then proceed to do a 1v1) as your are quite happy as it is either way.

Just because you dont mind a faulty gearshift on a car doesn't mean that everyone else needs to shut up and stop providing feedback to the car manufacturer about it.

[Nearly Dead]

Customers leave or stay because of their personal, subjective experience, not because of any statistic.

The only thing that matters is players staying or leaving, minus the effect of any outside events or promotions.

[StuntChicken007]

My personal Experience has been that the 4 man groups are awesome. We have been having so much more fun then we used to.Yes it does lead to stomps more often but then again we always try to get the people we play with to come and join our groups. It has also increased the amount of battles where people actually use in game coms which then again leads to the stomps. Don't cry, join us in group drops and have FUN.

[DAEDALOS513]

FRAGTAST1C, on 20 May 2020 - 07:37 PM, said:

Glad you've made up your mind. But again, you're wrong on many levels 'cause your opinions are based on nothing but more opinions. Try digging up the data first; evidence helps, facts matter more. You know why? You state that the number of stomps, according to your personal experience, hasn't increased whatsoever, whereas, others state the opposite. THIS is why we need to go off of facts and not personal experience. I hope you can finally realize why opinions don't matter in these cases.

I tried using the stats provided.. i tried giving opinion.. nothing satisfies you guys.. anyway I didn't say it hasn't increased whatsoever, I said it's about the same.. any increase is not significant enough for me to notice a difference.. the only time I see a difference is when a known unit is dropping in a 4 man..

[Anomalocaris]

StuntChicken007, on 21 May 2020 - 06:46 AM, said:

My personal Experience has been that the 4 man groups are awesome. We have been having so much more fun then we used to.Yes it does lead to stomps more often but then again we always try to get the people we play with to come and join our groups. It has also increased the amount of battles where people actually use in game coms which then again leads to the stomps. Don't cry, join us in group drops and have FUN.

What's fun for one potato is not fun for another. A lot of us played solo because we didn't want to group drop. Now we're gone. Enjoy your game while it lasts.....

[FRAGTAST1C]

DAEDALOS513, on 21 May 2020 - 08:20 AM, said:

I tried using the stats provided.. i tried giving opinion.. nothing satisfies you guys.. anyway I didn't say it hasn't increased whatsoever, I said it's about the same.. any increase is not significant enough for me to notice a difference.. the only time I see a difference is when a known unit is dropping in a 4 man..

I've seen the stats you provided. They were nothing but your personal experience and outright dismissal of actual evidence. On top of that, you continue to bring your subjective experience into a factual argument. It's not going to work. If it's not significant enough for you to notice the difference, I suggest trying harder and paying more attention rather than living in your own bubble.

[DAEDALOS513]

Magic Pain Glove, on 21 May 2020 - 05:44 AM, said:

Deadlos513 I really like how you are trying to completely disregard the Russ Bollock's statement and experience of bunch of other people ready to provide screenshots and multiple different 8 hour stream vods .

To you everyone's experience is subjective , despite providing heaps of evidence ( as mentioned above) but your's is not ? I am yet to see your provide any other proof other than your subjective feeling . Its kinda funny how you dont apply same logic and disregard your own experience.

What's really rich is that you do this while almost insultingly telling people to "improve". I watched Proton come back and fail to maintain a positive WLR in the soup queue and he's a better player than both you and me (Once again you dont give a s*** and wont look it up) . Go solo and sync up next time against my 4 man , each time you lose spend 2 hours in the academy "improving" and then do it again. Because hey , that's gonna be the reason why you lost.

Stop doing mental gymnastics and just say you like the change and don't mind the drawbacks of the new matchmaker that much. It's fine we get it , you are not alone and other people exist with similar opinion . But let others discuss the drawbacks without screaming "SUBJECTIVE" (while not providing counter evidence ) and "IMPROVE" ( I dare you to tell people like Proton to improve and then proceed to do a 1v1) as your are quite happy as it is either way.

Just because you dont mind a faulty gearshift on a car doesn't mean that everyone else needs to shut up and stop providing feedback to the car manufacturer about it.

Wow.. the amount of times you falsely put words in my mouth..

I have tons of screenshots showing great matches but I'm not about to start a 'screen shot war' as someone put it.. it's pointless.. they will be dismissed as hand-picked.. which in actuality they would be. All I can do is provide personal experience.. this queue is a helluvalot better than the painful solo queue was.. you want proof? How about the many other players that agree with me in this forum?

If I see a 4 man on the other side I realize it's gonna be a tough battle but I don't play to win anyway.. I play to do my part.. life isn't black and white, win or lose.. it's about the journey.. it's about improving, optimizing builds, optimizing fun.. it's about learning from mistakes... so you can continue to take your 4mans out since you seem to enjoy it.. and I'll continue to have my fun.

You're making it seem like I'm telling people to 'get gud'.. I never said that and I despise ppl that do. STOP putting words in my mouth it's not very nice and shows weakness. What I am telling people is that through soup queue, their gameplay will improve much more quickly than it ever would have in the old solo. Yes it can be a tougher queue at times, but I think it's just casual enough most matches to provide a learning experience. Don't we all want to improve deep down inside? You can't learn without challenging yourself a bit and many here appreciate this.

I never said this queue was perfect (ppl seem to forget this) but it needed to be done.. hopefully they continue to tweak it.

FRAGTAST1C, on 21 May 2020 - 08:55 AM, said:

I've seen the stats you provided. They were nothing but your personal experience and outright dismissal of actual evidence. On top of that, you continue to bring your subjective experience into a factual argument. It's not going to work. If it's not significant enough for you to notice the difference, I suggest trying harder and paying more attention rather than living in your own bubble.

Cool.

[Z Paradox]

StuntChicken007, on 21 May 2020 - 06:46 AM, said:

My personal Experience has been that the 4 man groups are awesome. We have been having so much more fun then we used to.Yes it does lead to stomps more often but then again we always try to get the people we play with to come and join our groups. It has also increased the amount of battles where people actually use in game coms which then again leads to the stomps. Don't cry, join us in group drops and have FUN.

yes, 4 man groups are awesome and it will kill the game. how many stomps can new player take without quiting game. how long will groups with 4 "friends" play losing all the time? more ppl will leave game just so they dont play with potatos. in the end we will have same effect as with FP update adding "story" to game. They didnt rollback and we lost players and gamemode to get story. LOL

[Magic Pain Glove]

And once again you are disregarding OBSERVABLE stream vods , disregarding OBSERVABLE silly leaderboard WLR's and any other OBSERVABLE stat metric .

DAEDALOS513 what dont you disregard one might ask ? "WELL Some people say they like the change . Whoop-dee-doo. "

Other people said they dont like it and now what ? Implying subjective experience of a PORTION of players trumps OBSERVABLE OBJECTIVE METRICS that we can now see is either malicious , misleading or straight up dumb .

Quote

I dont play to win anyway ...

And it appears once again ... No wonder you have an easy time disregarding observable match outcomes . But at that point its irrelevant to debate dont you think ? Since every match is a good match ? No one plays to win , and people dont mind loosing . Like I said previously convince all other people that 2 minute matches are a fun learning experience , convince streamers and small groups who previously stopped doing groups and fled to solo queue syncdrops after getting stomped that they should keep getting ROLFSTOMPED and we'r golden. No adverse effects will occur . People will stomp , others will get happily stomped by them and playerbas will keep rising.

Quote

You're making it seem like I'm telling people to 'get gud'..

When you tell people to "Improve" you trying to downplay the downsides of the current soup queue and place the blame on personal aspects/skills of individual players. Which is why mentioned the example of Proton and his last stream . Once again , cleverly you avoided debating , rewatching the stream or mentioning anything about it. Because it destroys this "Improve" argument . Since you would have trouble saying "Improve" to a player like him and a bunch of other players that stated simmilar things in this thread .

Quote

Yes it can be a tougher queue at times, but I think it's just casual enough most matches to provide a learning experience.

Wow , this is the closest you got to admitting that it's actually is a lot more difficult for solo players , good. I am sure they will get a ton more experience in those nice and fast 2 minute "tougher" matches. A lot of experience can be gained in stomps where they get deleted before they get to fire twice I agree. The best thing about it is now T5's can also enjoy that same COMPETITIVE 2 MINUTE LEARNING EXPERIENCE as well , good times.

[Peter Wiggen]

This sounds great!

Although I don't see how games are going to be more competitive due to this update, getting into matches with groups faster will be a much needed improvement. Playing games with a group often wasn't worth the 5 - 10 minute wait, but hopefully this update will make the waiting time shorter.

As for competitiveness, I'm afraid this isn't the solution. Resetting tier levels and making them a little more concrete could help in making good, competitive matches. At the moment, tiers are very abstract. A player's tier is basically a number ranging from 1 to 5 in the corner of the screen. I feel that some of the following things could be looked into:

• Adding more tiers (1 - 10 maybe?)
  
• Making tier numbers and match scores make more sense (Match scores look an awful lot like damage scores with a few points added or subtracted for some unseen reason)
  
• Being able to see other player's tier level

Aside from the competitive aspect and other things that need some change, I see this update as a good step forward for the game, and hope to see it stay.

[Brain Cancer]

MeanMachinE, on 18 May 2020 - 01:38 AM, said:

Do you remember what happened with missiles? At some point the more casual players were asking PGI to beef up LRM's as they weren't in their opinion effective enough in solo matches or so. Some of the the top tier players wanted to show that this was not true and started running missiles in faction warfare and did a lot of stomping there. The end result? Missiles we're beefed up five times after they were already proven to be OP when done right

The hilarious thing is that no matter how much LRMs are improved, you won't see everyone run AMS.

No, it's easier to complain about LRMs instead, and that in turn is because no matter how good they are, you don't see piles of missile boats in every game because direct fire weaponry never stopped being better.

[Brain Cancer]

Kin3ticX, on 19 May 2020 - 08:30 AM, said:

Some of whats happening is people are losing in the mechlab, losing in the game, and then instead of going back to the mechlab, they go to the forums.

That would be because before this, they were losing in the mechlab, but so many of their team-mates and opponents lost there just as badly that the games were balanced, in the sense that two people with late-stage muscular dystrophy duking it out with spoons and both arms tied behind their backs is balanced. That is, balance by incompetence.

Soup queue has pushed that aside nicely.

[Brain Cancer]

Excessive Paranoia, on 20 May 2020 - 01:47 PM, said:

"What’s your suggestion - we can’t split them again as the group queue can’t sustain itself. What would you do." - Russ Bullock - 17:01 05/18/2020

Whelp... proof to me that this "test" was never going back without massive player departures... Probably the only reason they even called it a "test" was to stop more people from pushing back heavily against it because they thought it wouldn't last. @PGI, you should take down the "News Item" calling this a "test" because all it does now it make you look like the liars you are...

People so often fail to remember that the most common form of MWO "improvement" is breaking or removing something.

Handily enough, a system with no group queue also means you need less server capacity to run it, as you've just put everyone who is grouping into the same servers as solo players.

[Horseman]

Peter Wiggen, on 21 May 2020 - 10:58 AM, said:

This sounds great!
As for competitiveness, I'm afraid this isn't the solution. Resetting tier levels and making them a little more concrete could help in making good, competitive matches. At the moment, tiers are very abstract. A player's tier is basically a number ranging from 1 to 5 in the corner of the screen. I feel that some of the following things could be looked into:

• Adding more tiers (1 - 10 maybe?)
  
• Making tier numbers and match scores make more sense (Match scores look an awful lot like damage scores with a few points added or subtracted for some unseen reason)
  
• Being able to see other player's tier level

• Adding more tiers won't work, because the tier system is fundamentally broken. The minimum match score to advance is considerably lower than the playerbase's global average match score, so the vast majority of players will advance until they max out Tier 1. We get players in the bottom 38th percentile of rankings with maxed Tier XP bars
  
• Damage is the main source of match score for most mechs. Around 0.45 point of score per point of damage, the rest coming from a number of other bonuses (assists, kills, protection proximities etc). I do agree that the score system might use rebalancing, since it puts too much emphasis on farming damage (should put more on kills, kmdds and solos, possibly WAY more on objectives). But the PSR system also needs a major rebalance (or simply a replacement with score-based rankings - which while not greatest will still be a more accurate metric)
  
• Not helpful, since T1 can mean anything from wold champion class to terribads who struggle to break a single-digit total kill count... cumulative over an entire day of drops.

Edited by Horseman, 21 May 2020 - 01:13 PM.

[DAEDALOS513]

Magic Pain Glove, on 21 May 2020 - 09:58 AM, said:

And once again you are disregarding OBSERVABLE stream vods , disregarding OBSERVABLE silly leaderboard WLR's and any other OBSERVABLE stat metric .

DAEDALOS513 what dont you disregard one might ask ? "WELL Some people say they like the change . Whoop-dee-doo. "

Other people said they dont like it and now what ? Implying subjective experience of a PORTION of players trumps OBSERVABLE OBJECTIVE METRICS that we can now see is either malicious , misleading or straight up dumb .



And it appears once again ... No wonder you have an easy time disregarding observable match outcomes . But at that point its irrelevant to debate dont you think ? Since every match is a good match ? No one plays to win , and people dont mind loosing . Like I said previously convince all other people that 2 minute matches are a fun learning experience , convince streamers and small groups who previously stopped doing groups and fled to solo queue syncdrops after getting stomped that they should keep getting ROLFSTOMPED and we'r golden. No adverse effects will occur . People will stomp , others will get happily stomped by them and playerbas will keep rising.

When you tell people to "Improve" you trying to downplay the downsides of the current soup queue and place the blame on personal aspects/skills of individual players. Which is why mentioned the example of Proton and his last stream . Once again , cleverly you avoided debating , rewatching the stream or mentioning anything about it. Because it destroys this "Improve" argument . Since you would have trouble saying "Improve" to a player like him and a bunch of other players that stated simmilar things in this thread .

Wow , this is the closest you got to admitting that it's actually is a lot more difficult for solo players , good. I am sure they will get a ton more experience in those nice and fast 2 minute "tougher" matches. A lot of experience can be gained in stomps where they get deleted before they get to fire twice I agree. The best thing about it is now T5's can also enjoy that same COMPETITIVE 2 MINUTE LEARNING EXPERIENCE as well , good times.

Sigh... you sound really upset (passionate?) and I'm not sure why ppl can't have a conversation without taking it personal (yes, when you call someone dumb you are taking it personal).. anyway..

I only brought up the fact that many players agree with me because you wanted proof.. if you want to disregard them like you accuse me of doing, be my guest.. be a hippocrit.

If I were to look at your vods or hand picked screen shots or whatever, it would prove nothing because I already admit high end players grouping up would carry a match.. never said they wouldn't. This isn't rocket science. What I am saying is that there is enough variety in matches that I won't run into the same 4man 2 games in a row.. so stomps are not as big an issue as some make it out to be. What I am also saying is, like it or not, soup was a needed change for where the game stands now and that PGI must continue to tweak it. To not be able to drop with friends in a team-based game was stinkin ridiculous.

Yes, at this stage of MWO's life (where we're lucky enough to still have this game around) and the unortthodox way that teams are put together, winning in the literal sense doesn't mean much (and thus w/l ratios mean nothing, sorry for your luck stat-addicts). Gone are the grand old days where dropping group queue usually meant a glorious unit vs unit battle; I still get a rush thinking about those matches.. MJ12 VS BMMU or KCOM. ahhh.. Face it, those days are over (for now?) and we have to adjust.. We all have to shift our thinking of what it is it that makes a match a win. For me it's creating a fun build (not a copy and paste meta build, wink wink) and actually have it contribute in a match (solo or with a friend).. I also call it a win if I end up in the top 3 in damage or kmds. Mostly, what I call a big win, is if I call a strat and the team follows it.. I feel such pride and gratification, win or lose, and we're left with a positive feeling even affter a loss. Now what makes a 'win' will vary from player to player but thinking a literal win means anything in this environment.. your foolin yourself. Everyone has to decide what will make the match a 'win' for themselves.

Something that would help solo'ers immensely is to join a unit. Make friends and share knowledge.

PS. You exagerate alot. I don't respond to obvious exagerations.

Edited by DAEDALOS513, 21 May 2020 - 01:59 PM.