1579 replies to this topic

[Alreech]

BlaizerP, on 01 May 2020 - 05:04 AM, said:

I don't think you're ever going to get a lot of coordination in quick play, regardless of whatever changes are being made, such is the nature of throwing together a bunch of random people. Luckily there is faction and comp to fill that need.

Nope, faction play isn't what much better, you got still almost no coordination between Groups / Lances.
What's the reason why even after "fixing" the match maker for Solo & Groups ect PGI still needs to improve the tools for coordination & rewards for team work / using Lance Leader menues.

Faction Plays advantage is the Drop Decks so you can choose fitting Mechs, and the Respawns to turn around a match.
Faction Plays disadvantage are the too big Drop Decks for smaller Maps, and the missing of smaller match sizes like 4 vs 4 & 8 vs 8 for smaller groups.
And for 12 vs 12 Faction Play a 13th player acting only as Commander is IMHO needed.

Edited by Alreech, 01 May 2020 - 07:29 AM.

[Dee Eight]

One thing I've found from about a hundred matches since this fiasco started is that people using the groups, aren't using the normal in-game VOIP ever to communicate to the solos they're burdening (if they're terrible), or burdened with (if they're good) at all unless its to taunt them / whine at them. They're all using there own teamspeak or discord channels. So there is no coordination going on with these groups and the other 8 or more solos. The seal clubbers are just gonna club, and the seals who lack the situational awareness to avoid being clubbed constantly are going to just quit the game altogether after having their enjoyment crushed enough times. Jarl's has the april info updated now and it appears the active player base grew back to 14.86k as of April 30th (merely putting it back to where it was end of December '19). It will be interesting to see at the end of May whether it grew again or plummeted as many of us are predicting is going to be the result of this latest screw up by PGI.

[Haipyng]

This one change made it possible for us to play again in 3-4 man groups after a year of playing other games and another several months of super long waits for a game prior to us stopping playing MWO altogether. If it reverts we will end up not playing again. Simple as that.

For us it was casual fun. We didn't want FW (neither did many others it seems). We didn't want a e-sports platform (not many others did either). PGI has not had a very good track record of looking at the data and seeing what people like to play and working on that. Always something new without much desire from the player base. Remember the days when there was a population and you could select a game type? Conquest runs with nearly all lights? Those were a blast. Fast duels over points. Lights had a purpose.

In any case, I and many others said that we needed ways to ease friends into playing. An on ramp to get up to speed. We needed better features in SP and GP to attract and keep them. GP has never been a place to take a new player back when 8+ man teams roamed it. We needed to attract and keep new players. We needed population! We tried to brainstorm. Small group queues, a group queue that only allowed 2-4 man groups. Duos in Solo Play. So many ideas, so much resistance to change from a vocal few. I warned this day would come, when the population couldn't support separate queues, they would get folded into one.

Maybe it will stick and SP kiddies will let the door hit them on the butt on their way out. Maybe it won't and players that came back will move on again. Remaining stagnant however is just slow death.

I've only got 6 hours play on MWO since the change, but it seems far better balanced than GP in its heyday. You haven't seen stomps until you saw them playing against practiced 8+ man teams against small groups, game after game. Sometimes a stomp can't be avoided and sometimes it is not the level of the players. It's just being in or moving through an area and the enemy shows up in an unexpected place. In his new Grolo play, we seem to get stomps for and against our side in equal measure and an almost equal number of balanced matches. Yeah MM isn't effective. Yeah weight classes are off, but it is an improvement for small groups. MWO needs to pull players back and IMO it is a improvement. Your mileage may vary.

Edited by Haipyng, 01 May 2020 - 07:59 AM.

[N3tRunn3r]

Actually I have been just and only in noob teams, no fun.

[Larsh]

Anomalocaris, on 01 May 2020 - 08:01 AM, said:

Of course the final fact is that soloQ was chugging along just fine while group tanked (until 8v8) which means that there was not a meaningful part of the population that wanted to play group - cause the only thing stopping them was their own unwillingness.

I don't want to dispute your findings. But, please check my post above explaining why my group left Group to go to Solo unwillingly.

[Anomalocaris]

Larsh, on 01 May 2020 - 08:12 AM, said:

I don't want to dispute your findings. But, please check my post above explaining why my group left Group to go to Solo unwillingly.

I read your post Larsh, thanks. But ultimately the reason is the same. Not enough people were left that wanted to play group. It was always a smaller number than solo anyways due to the lack of matchmaking and tonnage limitations. If you were low skill and went to group play, you always ran the risk of a no win situation if the wrong team dropped opposite you.

That's why group, as structured in MWO, was always going to be less attractive. Now they've forced much of that same dynamic on the people that said "no way" to the old structure. Forcing people to play things they don't want is never good. You felt forced to sync in solo, but, and again, this is not an insult, you and yours were a tiny minority (as evidenced by the popularity of group queue). PGI should not be catering to you at the expense of the majority in solo queue. It's a bad business decision and its a bad decision from a general standard of fairness. Customers vote with their feet. I'm one foot out the door, but because I like this game even with its flaws, I'm arguing hard for a reversion. Lost cause maybe, but I'll try until there's no point.

[Larsh]

Anomalocaris, on 01 May 2020 - 08:34 AM, said:

I read your post Larsh, thanks. But ultimately the reason is the same. Not enough people were left that wanted to play group. It was always a smaller number than solo anyways due to the lack of matchmaking and tonnage limitations. If you were low skill and went to group play, you always ran the risk of a no win situation if the wrong team dropped opposite you.

That's why group, as structured in MWO, was always going to be less attractive. Now they've forced much of that same dynamic on the people that said "no way" to the old structure. Forcing people to play things they don't want is never good. You felt forced to sync in solo, but, and again, this is not an insult, you and yours were a tiny minority (as evidenced by the popularity of group queue). PGI should not be catering to you at the expense of the majority in solo queue. It's a bad business decision and its a bad decision from a general standard of fairness. Customers vote with their feet. I'm one foot out the door, but because I like this game even with its flaws, I'm arguing hard for a reversion. Lost cause maybe, but I'll try until there's no point.

Cool thanks for the insight. I can totally understand the position of solo outweighing the amount of those that play group.

But, I think one of the things that this forum thread has done is open my eyes to is the differing thoughts to why group died, or why solo is currently dying as well. I only say solo may be dying too as I've found others that that have a shared experience to mine, and will probably end up leaving this game if we can't play as a group anymore.

Do you have the definite number data on the population that prefers Group Drops to Solo Drops? I'm actually curious to see it, and since I have been at work I may have missed it if it was posted earlier. it's always hard to discuss who likes what without talking to them directly, which is a good use for this forum.

[So Much For Subtlety]

Anomalocaris, on 01 May 2020 - 08:34 AM, said:

You felt forced to sync in solo, but, and again, this is not an insult, you and yours were a tiny minority (as evidenced by the popularity of group queue).

You keep using the dead state of group queue as evidence for its lack of popularity. I don't think that's the case, certainly in my own case - which is the only one I can talk about with confidence. I came to the game late, and essentially stopped playing because the group queue was dead and it was impossible to get matches with my friends, not because I didn't want to play as a group.

[Z Paradox]

Ok, this is breaking the game, group drop with pugs is stupid,Tonnage is not important, 2 fleas dominated games last night. yesterday our group of 4 ppl got ~8 kills per game (our lance). I like it... others not so much...

my WLr is now 4.17 (from ~1.5) and my KDr went to 11.25 ( from ~2.5)


Set MM to use T3, T4 and T5 for solo QP without group drops, and T1 and T2 for solo QP WITH group drops. That could help...

[Thorqemada]

Well, letting the things that not work take over the things that work is in the end increasing the number of things not working - its like drilling a hole into a sinking ship so the water can Flood out of it...

[DAEDALOS513]

Horseman, on 01 May 2020 - 01:16 AM, said:

I'm sorry, what? Is being able to group up and play with more than one of their friends at a time an exclusive priviledge of casuals now? ... no it ain't.

Actually for now, with the low population, yes it is a priviledge.. we're all lucky to be able to drop with friends.

Driving is a privilege, not a right

[DAEDALOS513]

Anomalocaris, on 01 May 2020 - 03:56 AM, said:

So tell me again why, for the vast majority of us playing SoloQ as it was, why we should have to suffer a major reduction in gameplay quality for the tiny minority of you that wanted to drop with your buddy? How in the world does that make any sense at all? I've asked this question several times and no one will answer because they know the only real answer is "because I want it". Well, if its just about who wants it, the ones who wanted to play solo were clearly in the majority to begin with. Sorry, but they should count more, especially when discussing the fate of SOLO queue!

Because at it's heart MWO is a teambased game.. this is where it excels.. unlike COD and other shooters where players just rush in to die cuz they know they will respawn in 10 seconds, MWO is a thinking man's shooter where good positioning and coordination wins matches.

[Weeny Machine]

Current experience:

Currently there are so many rolls - one way or the other. It is no fun.

Consumable spam has reach a new high. I am more busy dodging Arti strikes and shoot down UAVs then doing anything else

Mech diversity has also taken a hard blow. I mostly see meta mechs and builds. Plus the number of assaults per match is at a point where it is becoming silly.


Considering these points I must say the game is on an all time low gameplaywise. The decision of putting groups into QP is just (sorry) idiotic.



Some thoughts

Why do people play QP?
To have some quick action and fun.
It is mostly chaotic and most likely people like it.
To play some builds and mechs they like despite they are not meta


Why do people play QP?
To use their best builds
To get the most advantage (consumables etc)
To play with friends
To play in a team with orders etc


This alone shows that those two things do not fit together.




History repeating itself
If it were not sad, I would laugh because history is repeating itself.
When World of Warcraft introduced battlegrounds they were at one point facing the same problems. Premades were slaughtering PuGs to the extend PuGs didn't even let their character respawn anymore because it was no fun.
Premades even sent only 1 of them in to see if they had to fight a PuG or a premade. When it was a premade, they did not joing and waited for the next battleground.

When those premades were accused of seal clubbing and epeen stroking you heard the same old argument:
"I want to play with friends"
"I want a challenge"
"I want to fight other premades. Really! Slaughtering PuGs is no fun to me!"

So, Blizzard introduced group battlegrounds at that time. What do you think happened`? The battlegrounds for premade teams were dead.

It turned out that those "pros" were not really interested in grouped matches if it wasn't about slaughtering PuGs.

Does anyone see similiarties to what we have here now? Must be complete coincidence that the group queue was dead and now they creep out of their holes

Edited by Weeny Machine, 01 May 2020 - 09:45 AM.

[Naofumi Sama]

I'm happy with this change, i would play more MWO but with the fact that grouping up with friends takes 10+ minutes in group queue makes it pretty much unplayable. Yes syncing works somewhat, but getting on opposite teams with friends makes it less enjoyable.

I get the complaints for the matchmaking discrepancies. The ELO(or whatever) ranking system should be tweaked.

[Anomalocaris]

So Much For Subtlety, on 01 May 2020 - 09:03 AM, said:

You keep using the dead state of group queue as evidence for its lack of popularity. I don't think that's the case, certainly in my own case - which is the only one I can talk about with confidence. I came to the game late, and essentially stopped playing because the group queue was dead and it was impossible to get matches with my friends, not because I didn't want to play as a group.

Why do you think you couldn't get matches? It wasn't because group was super popular and there were no slots left, right? It was because not enough people wanted to play. Hence it wasn't popular. Don't know how many people wanted to play, but it wasn't enough to fill the queue. Res Ipsa Loquitor (I think I got that right).

[SolahmaWarrior]

Larsh, on 01 May 2020 - 10:29 AM, said:

[redacted]

That's alright. The bickering has spilled over to some of the matches too. Was playing this morning, 0630-0830 EST NA, and some people were really salty...

Between last night's play and this morning's play, maybe 12-15 games or so (alt account, T2), all were stomps (both ways) except 2. The 2 that weren't were actually really fun and enjoyable. Did have a couple where Groups blew everyone away, but also had a few where the Group Damage Totals were less than some solo players' Damage Totals.

I did notice that they changed the Lance formation back to the old QP format if NO Groups were on your team. That was appreciated.

Do the Groups have to be in the same Lance at the loading stage? Can they not just change their Lance make up then, even though they drop separate, and then form up after drop?

[East Indy]

Michelle Branch, on 30 April 2020 - 10:17 PM, said:

Edit- if you're really this passionate about people playing together, downsize it to duos.

It's funny, but the one element missing since queues split in June 2014 has been the ability to pull in a buddy and show him the game as a duo in a low-pressure environment.

[Capt Deadpool]

Z Paradox, on 01 May 2020 - 09:12 AM, said:

Ok, this is breaking the game, group drop with pugs is stupid,Tonnage is not important, 2 fleas dominated games last night. yesterday our group of 4 ppl got ~8 kills per game (our lance). I like it... others not so much...

my WLr is now 4.17 (from ~1.5) and my KDr went to 11.25 ( from ~2.5)


Set MM to use T3, T4 and T5 for solo QP without group drops, and T1 and T2 for solo QP WITH group drops. That could help...

And we were only at 4.17 W/L cause we were running a 2-man for a while and being put onto several teams without keyboards before becoming a 3-man, at which point it no longer mattered if the rest of our team brought keyboards.

But in fairness, our 3-man we ran is not going to be representative of a typical 3-man, and you are definitely not representative of an average light pilot; don't sell yourself short, Paradox The 4-mans + 3-man/2-man teams we played generally went down as fast as if we were playing all solos, so that is going to be atypical with regards to group vs. group play.

Additionally, you would be closer to those KDR numbers you had last night even in solo if you usually ran something with either more tonnage or smaller hit boxes than that easy to shoot Oxide (though Oxides are fun!)

I am still of the opinion prioritizing matching groups against each other and filling in the blanks with solos so games either end up being completely solos vs. solos or maybe 2-4 solos per team who are just along for the ride would be a good solution. I have been under the assumption PSR will never be fixed for a long time so I don't even mention it.

Edited by Capt Deadpool, 01 May 2020 - 10:53 AM.

[Grumpy Old Man]

You know what, the personal attacks on this thread are leading nowhere, no matter whether people attack each other or Russ. At this point you are just trying to beat each other. And I do not think that's going to work on the Internet. Either way, some out of the box thinking from me.

Since everybody here is worried about stomps, clubbed seals and one sided matches, a different approach. From the discussion above I get the impression groups size is not a huge issue, dropped weight is an issue and teams of top players are a huge issue.

If you are a 95%+ player, or above X in average match score, you do not get to form or join a 4 Person or 3 Person group. Sorry, you are SOL. Play in a team of 2 at best. If you are 80%+ player or above Y in average match score, you do not get to form or join a 4 Person. Play in a Team of 2-3 at best. Everybody lower gets to form full groups.

Would that solve the lopsided match issues? I dunno. Just putting it out there and seeing what people think.

[NRP]

LOL, I saw Z Paradox in his damn Flea and I heard Capt. Deadpool hollering over the mic in a few games last night.

It was kind of fun, but very challenging matches. Definitely feel the massive increase in skill level of opponents.

Edited by NRP, 01 May 2020 - 11:03 AM.