1579 replies to this topic

[Zulu211]

Thanks for not reading what I'd written. I said I finished in the top HALF of DAMAGE done per match. Where exactly is the damage stat in your [redacted] measuring tape?

[mod]inappropriate language removed[/mod]

Edited by Ekson Valdez, 17 May 2020 - 10:58 PM.

[DLRevan]

So....I haven't touched this game in years. A lot of it had to do with the fact that frankly speaking, the relationship between the developer and community was co-equally toxic. After years of looking back at it, to be honest who gives a **** who was right too, the fact is the game got iterated on with little concern for players who didn't fit into whales for the devs, and hardcore MWarriors for the community.

But, anyway. Last year me and 3 other friends tried to get back into the game...and we couldn't because we quite literally couldn't find games for an eternity. And the few times we found any, we got stomped by organized groups. Attempting to "git gud" really wasn't an option since we were so far behind on experience and equipment. If it came to the point of deciding if we should all attempt to get that through solo play....there's plenty of other games out there where we didn't have to wait 15mins for a queue or split up just to train.

Fast forward to last month, and we're left with just me and one other friend agreeing to play MWO again. Now queuing doesn't take a century, it's basically impossible. And we're just 2man. If we don't "organize" with LFGs in discord and join prime times, we're basically out in the cold with an even worse version of the original problem.

So we were ready to dump the game entirely. But then they announced this change and...well, we're still here. We're playing everyday, for the first time in years. And we're having at least a little fun. Sure, we're getting stomped in a lot of matches. Sometimes I go out in a poorly optimized assault with 10 back armor and get blown out by a light. Or various other probably familiar stories to you all. But some matches we win, we're having fun, we're learning how to play and optimize again. And because we don't take long to queue anymore, we can play game after game in 1~2 hours we have to play games. It can't be that all of them are stomps, and there's also a lot of guys like us now, I feel, giving the game more of a varied skill spread.

Are there some lances that feel like super-optimized stompers? Sure...but they're not in every game and they can't be in every game. Those kinds of games are especially short too...so I get my mech back fast.

My point to all the negative commenters here is...why are you intent on making sure people like my buddy and I don't play this game? Is that all you want, reducing this game further and further to a few dedicated solo'ers who spend too much time on this game, or people who are way too serious doing organized clan drops? The only positive steam review in the last few months are largely based on changes to group queues to allow people to queue at all. This game is way beyond whether in a specific match, you're going to get stomped or not. It's about whether we can play at all. You don't see it because it doesn't affect you. But I sure hope this change or some form of it stays, or after this month, people like my pair are just going to drop the game again. There's plenty of other games out there, and we only looked at MWO because I've been a serious BT fan for decades. Think on that, just how few people there are out there that can form this game's population if it's just some diehards.

Edited by DLRevan, 14 May 2020 - 12:51 PM.

[BARRY SHlTPEAS]

Chaotic_Harmony, on 14 May 2020 - 07:35 AM, said:

Now, I'm saying this because I've been one of the ones abusing it. And considering the sheer hate I get from just about any other MWO content provider because of it, I think my point is proven. A 4 man allows you to brute force cheese into the game, whether it be 4 Rifleman IICs with 6 AC2s, a group of Vapor Eagles with ATMs, or in my group's choice LRMs.

Your point about gameplay is correct and I agree.

I suspect the "sheer hate" is due to the fact that either:
A ) Chaotic Harmony is on the opposing side, vomiting LRMs everywhere.
B ) Chaotic Harmony is on your side, vomiting Duncan Fisher impressions everywhere.

Edited by -Verti-, 14 May 2020 - 01:09 PM.

[Blackhorse11Cav]

Anomalocaris, on 14 May 2020 - 10:06 AM, said:

Well we don't want to name and shame here. But to call oneself average you should probably have an average match score around the average (about 230 these days) and a WLR somewhere near 1:1. I wasn't anywhere near average in my first 8-10 seasons on my old account (PTW) (I was really bad, but I'll blame my laptop for that, couldn't have been me, no sir), so there's no shame in not being there yet.

What the hell does this peacocking have to do with anything the OP wrote?

[Excessive Paranoia]

DLRevan, on 14 May 2020 - 12:50 PM, said:

My point to all the negative commenters here is...why are you intent on making sure people like my buddy and I don't play this game? Is that all you want, reducing this game further and further to a few dedicated solo'ers who spend too much time on this game, or people who are way too serious doing organized clan drops? The only positive steam review in the last few months are largely based on changes to group queues to allow people to queue at all. This game is way beyond whether in a specific match, you're going to get stomped or not. It's about whether we can play at all. You don't see it because it doesn't affect you. But I sure hope this change or some form of it stays, or after this month, people like my pair are just going to drop the game again. There's plenty of other games out there, and we only looked at MWO because I've been a serious BT fan for decades. Think on that, just how few people there are out there that can form this game's population if it's just some diehards.

Unfortunately, the implementation has created this divide. Because there is no balancing, or only minimal balancing, the change has literally set solo players against group players. Without changes to the MM and PSR system, for you and your buddy to play, I have to suffer poor enough match quality that I no longer want to play, and for me to get my much needed match quality back, you'd have to be shunted off into your own queue again where you can only get a match once a day if you're lucky.

In this context, I place far more value on getting my match quality back than I do on your ability to play the game. That isn't to say that I don't want you, your buddy, or people like you around to play the game, but rather that if its going to happen, it 100% needs to happen in the correct way, with a rewriting of the MM and PSR systems to properly allow for skill segregation and both skill and tonnage balancing within the teams, while also including the groups. Without this, the matches will continue to be bad, solo players will leave, and you and your buddy are going to be left holding the bag on another empty queue, except this time there won't be a solo queue to go to when you can't get matches.

In the end, and to answer your question: Yes, if I can't have decent match quality, I will argue until I'm blue in the face that groups should be kicked back out of the solo queue, even if it means the game goes back to its gradual decline into death.

[DAEDALOS513]

Anomalocaris, on 14 May 2020 - 08:14 AM, said:

No offense intended, and your opinion about whether this merge is good or not is valid whether I like it or not, but let's not misrepresent our skill levels here.

Anyone can check jarl's list to see where they stand in the grand scheme of things

https://leaderboard.isengrim.org/

You're kidding right?

[Zulu211]

I should've known SOMEBODY would be placing entirely too much self worth on fine tuning their play to the stats and feel compelled to whip it out as soon as the chance came up.

I've been sufficiently smacked down. I now vow to have less fun, do less damage (or more) and play strictly toward the higher scores. I'm inspired.

Does anybody even track average damage? Here comes my own stat site www.damage.mwo.epeen.com

[DAEDALOS513]

DLRevan, on 14 May 2020 - 12:50 PM, said:

So....I haven't touched this game in years. A lot of it had to do with the fact that frankly speaking, the relationship between the developer and community was co-equally toxic. After years of looking back at it, to be honest who gives a **** who was right too, the fact is the game got iterated on with little concern for players who didn't fit into whales for the devs, and hardcore MWarriors for the community.

But, anyway. Last year me and 3 other friends tried to get back into the game...and we couldn't because we quite literally couldn't find games for an eternity. And the few times we found any, we got stomped by organized groups. Attempting to "git gud" really wasn't an option since we were so far behind on experience and equipment. If it came to the point of deciding if we should all attempt to get that through solo play....there's plenty of other games out there where we didn't have to wait 15mins for a queue or split up just to train.

Fast forward to last month, and we're left with just me and one other friend agreeing to play MWO again. Now queuing doesn't take a century, it's basically impossible. And we're just 2man. If we don't "organize" with LFGs in discord and join prime times, we're basically out in the cold with an even worse version of the original problem.

So we were ready to dump the game entirely. But then they announced this change and...well, we're still here. We're playing everyday, for the first time in years. And we're having at least a little fun. Sure, we're getting stomped in a lot of matches. Sometimes I go out in a poorly optimized assault with 10 back armor and get blown out by a light. Or various other probably familiar stories to you all. But some matches we win, we're having fun, we're learning how to play and optimize again. And because we don't take long to queue anymore, we can play game after game in 1~2 hours we have to play games. It can't be that all of them are stomps, and there's also a lot of guys like us now, I feel, giving the game more of a varied skill spread.

Are there some lances that feel like super-optimized stompers? Sure...but they're not in every game and they can't be in every game. Those kinds of games are especially short too...so I get my mech back fast.

My point to all the negative commenters here is...why are you intent on making sure people like my buddy and I don't play this game? Is that all you want, reducing this game further and further to a few dedicated solo'ers who spend too much time on this game, or people who are way too serious doing organized clan drops? The only positive steam review in the last few months are largely based on changes to group queues to allow people to queue at all. This game is way beyond whether in a specific match, you're going to get stomped or not. It's about whether we can play at all. You don't see it because it doesn't affect you. But I sure hope this change or some form of it stays, or after this month, people like my pair are just going to drop the game again. There's plenty of other games out there, and we only looked at MWO because I've been a serious BT fan for decades. Think on that, just how few people there are out there that can form this game's population if it's just some diehards.

Another warrior that see's the light! Well said.. you too understand that more good has come from this new queue than bad.. we all KNOW it's not perfect but this was something that simply had to be done.. MWO is a TEAM BASED game and to not have the ability to drop in a group was beyond ridiculous. I wouldn't worry too much about PGI reverting the new queue.. it's the best thing they could have done considering the current state of the game. Now the pressure is on for them to keep the 'update ball' rolling and, among other things, tweak matchmaker, adjust spawn points, maybe even releasing more of the classic maps (nudge nudge, wink wink, something I've been calling for, for years).

Edited by DAEDALOS513, 14 May 2020 - 05:08 PM.

[Blackhorse11Cav]

Excessive Paranoia, on 14 May 2020 - 02:12 PM, said:

In the end, and to answer your question: Yes, if I can't have decent match quality, I will argue until I'm blue in the face that groups should be kicked back out of the solo queue, even if it means the game goes back to its gradual decline into death.

MAKES ZERO SENSE. I play solo as well and end up in battles with groups. I se no issues as a solo player. Advocating this game go back and gradually die...Wow...smh...

Zulu211, on 14 May 2020 - 02:26 PM, said:

I should've known SOMEBODY would be placing entirely too much self worth on fine tuning their play to the stats and feel compelled to whip it out as soon as the chance came up.

I've been sufficiently smacked down. I now vow to have less fun, do less damage (or more) and play strictly toward the higher scores. I'm inspired.

Does anybody even track average damage? Here comes my own stat site www.damage.mwo.epeen.com

I've been in since before BETA. I never tracked stats or even knew of such a thing until now. who cares? Nobody.

[Z Paradox]

DLRevan, on 14 May 2020 - 12:50 PM, said:

My point to all the negative commenters here is...why are you intent on making sure people like my buddy and I don't play this game? Is that all you want, reducing this game further and further to a few dedicated solo'ers who spend too much time on this game, or people who are way too serious doing organized clan drops? The only positive steam review in the last few months are largely based on changes to group queues to allow people to queue at all.

we dont want you to stop playing, we want option to not play vs group drops or play with them...

PGI could just add option for "solo" and/or "group" next to quick play and same to group drop: add groups and/or add solo players. that way we could play solo vs solos or group vs group or mix of all...

[Excessive Paranoia]

Blackhorse11Cav, on 14 May 2020 - 03:41 PM, said:

MAKES ZERO SENSE. I play solo as well and end up in battles with groups. I se no issues as a solo player. Advocating this game go back and gradually die...Wow...smh...

Well, from my perspective, the only two options that are available (since PGI are unlikely to put in the work required to do this right), are a slow death with an intact solo queue or a quicker death with the soup queue since solo player match quality is a dumpster fire right now and people will likely leave. Given those options, I'd much rather see a slow death with a solo queue that I can still enjoy...

[Blackhorse11Cav]

Excessive Paranoia, on 14 May 2020 - 04:33 PM, said:

Well, from my perspective, the only two options that are available (since PGI are unlikely to put in the work required to do this right), are a slow death with an intact solo queue or a quicker death with the soup queue since solo player match quality is a dumpster fire right now and people will likely leave. Given those options, I'd much rather see a slow death with a solo queue that I can still enjoy...

Why? how has the addition of group play hampered YOUR play? play any other MMO and you will find solo and group play combined. how is the implementation here any different? I've been playing since day ONE and see no issues. Why do you experience something less than ideal, and what makes it less than ideal?

[Tommy Atkins]

Oh my god. The ******* weight imbalance in the quick play queue.

It's appalling.

Listen: It is not fun to drop in a match where one team has two assaults and the other has five. It doesn't matter which team you're on. A 12-0 stomp because of matchmaker sucks.

This is broken, PGI. And why the hell should I bother to keep playing a broken game?

[Anomalocaris]

Zulu211, on 14 May 2020 - 12:26 PM, said:

Thanks for not reading what I'd written. I said I finished in the top HALF of DAMAGE done per match. Where exactly is the damage stat in your penis length measuring tape?

You said you were average. You're not, not even close. It's not an insult, just a accurate assessment of where you're at. Nothing to be ashamed about, we all started somewhere and my first 6 months were probably worse than yours. But judging by your response, there appears to be a bit of ego invested in it. Too bad for you. Don't know where to go if you don't know where you're starting. As I said, you're entitled to your opinion, but it isn't that of an average player.

As for those asking why solo players don't want you to play in groups, you're asking the wrong question. Those of us who played solo were cooking along ok, especially given the population of the game - it was rare for me to have to wait more than 90-120 seconds for a match - during prime time it was usually less than a minute. Then enough people whined to Russ about not being able to get group drops, so you came in and messed up the balance of soloq. Why don't you want us solo players to have a fun mode of our own, I might ask you. This merge wrecked balance and competitiveness - that's not even my opinion, it comes from Russ and Paul. Threw it right out the window, and you're going to lose a bunch of solo players because of it. Maybe you gain a little more back than you lose, but why make a change that trades one for another instead of at least trying the opt-in method so many people mentioned? Because Russ and Paul don't know what they're doing, in part because they don't play their game. Driving out a bunch of players who were playing regularly in the hopes of bringing back some who might play regularly is just silly. Bird in the hand and all that jazz.

[Anomalocaris]

Blackhorse11Cav, on 14 May 2020 - 04:45 PM, said:

Why? how has the addition of group play hampered YOUR play? play any other MMO and you will find solo and group play combined. how is the implementation here any different? I've been playing since day ONE and see no issues. Why do you experience something less than ideal, and what makes it less than ideal?

You must have skipped the first 50 or so pages of the thread. I'll summarize:

1) Groups >> Solos when it comes to combat effectiveness all things being equal. IOW, take a bunch of similarly skilled players and the group of 4 will work together better than 4 randoms will. That makes them more dangerous
2) The matchmaker, such as it was, went to pot with this merge. Tonnage is completely gone, and even the experience bar of PSR doesn't apply much anymore.
3) Really good players tend to group with other really good players. Which means you tend to end up with an almost unbeatable 4 man on one side and pugs on the other. The good players can almost guarantee themselves a win 9 times out of 10 dropping together.

Compared to the old solo queue, it was rare to get just one 1%er on a team and that person was beatable with a little luck, skill or cooperation. Those guys were hard pressed to see WLR in solo of more than 2.5-3 which is godlike anyways. Now those guys can return WLR of 6-10:1 dropping in groups. Solos just don't matter when a good group drops in their match. And that's no fun in the long run.

Summary complete.

[Excessive Paranoia]

Tommy Atkins, on 14 May 2020 - 04:53 PM, said:

Oh my god. The ******* weight imbalance in the quick play queue.

It's appalling.

Listen: It is not fun to drop in a match where one team has two assaults and the other has five. It doesn't matter which team you're on. A 12-0 stomp because of matchmaker sucks.

This is broken, PGI. And why the hell should I bother to keep playing a broken game?

Blackhorse11Cav, on 14 May 2020 - 04:45 PM, said:

Why? how has the addition of group play hampered YOUR play? play any other MMO and you will find solo and group play combined. how is the implementation here any different? I've been playing since day ONE and see no issues. Why do you experience something less than ideal, and what makes it less than ideal?

Well, for one, see above....

And for two, it's hampered MY play by depriving me of an enjoyable experience. Dropping into matches now is a roll of the dice as to whether you're going to be on a team with a bunch of low-skill players, or if you're going to be faced off against a pre-made of the highest skilled players in the game. At least prior to this, I had a reasonable expectation that each team would be at least approximately balanced in both tonnage and skill. Now that expectation is completely out the window, with teams having severe tonnage and skill disparities, made all the worse by the fact that high-skill groups can now ensure they are on the same team. Again, prior to the test, you might have seen the same high skill players, but it was just as likely that group would have been split across both teams, or even different matches, thereby smoothing out the impact they have on the match.

As for the other games you're referring to, I'm assuming you're talking about games like WoT, WoWS, and War Thunder, and, having played all of them, my personal experience is much the same as this current test setup. Matches were more often than not completely unbalanced with seasoned vets using the newer players for target practice, and groups working together to influence the match. And you know what? I had the same complaint about those games as I do about the current state of this one... Match quality was abysmal and as a result, I stopped playing all of them within a few weeks.

I'll also point out that those games are also balanced across tech levels, so at least you had the option to step down to the "easier" tech tiers where the proportion of vets is lower, though I'd still say that seal-clubbing is rampant. MWO has always been balanced around the player's skill level and/or experience... Even before the current PSR system we had a hidden ELO system that served to segregate people by approximate skill. Throwing that balance out the window completely is only going to prompt the people who enjoyed the more balanced gameplay to get frustrated and leave. I'm not saying that type of system couldn't have worked in MWO, but the time to introduce it was in 2013 before the game released, not 2020 when you've got a player base that's just holding on...

EDIT: Two more points I'll highlight when comparing MWO to other games like WoWS etc. First, those games are far less niche than our big stompy robots, and so they can afford to be less gentle with their player bases. If 5k (or even 50k) of their millions of players decide to leave because they don't like how something works, it might hurt them a little, but really doesn't amount to much. On the other hand, if 5k of MWO's 15k players leave, then that is a major hit to its population. Second, MWO is a much faster paced game than the others, being a shooter more than a simulation. As such, skill imbalances compound quickly and matches can end in a couple of minutes. In the time that I played those other games, it was very rare for matches to be decided within the first 10 minutes, let alone the first 2 minutes as can be seen right now in some MWO matches.

Edited by Excessive Paranoia, 14 May 2020 - 06:14 PM.

[Nearly Dead]

I think PGI/Russ has made it clear what the future of MWO is.

Next stop, combined group/solo 8v8. Then 6v6? Only two reasons to do a game, for love or money. It isn't making money and the love seems kind of thin.

I can only stand to play two or three matches at a time now. Yesterday I looked forward to the sun coming out so the grass would dry and I could quit playing and go mow.

Anybody know if Steam has a lawn maintenance simulator?

[crazytimes]

Nearly Dead, on 14 May 2020 - 06:10 PM, said:

Anybody know if Steam has a lawn maintenance simulator?

Farm Simulator has turned from a meme, to a cult following, to an actual commercial success and I believe is doing very well and is getting yearly releases and DLC. There is cross platform multiplayer as well.

[Zulu211]

Anomalocaris, on 14 May 2020 - 05:07 PM, said:

You said you were average. You're not, not even close. It's not an insult, just a accurate assessment of where you're at. Nothing to be ashamed about, we all started somewhere and my first 6 months were probably worse than yours. But judging by your response, there appears to be a bit of ego invested in it. Too bad for you. Don't know where to go if you don't know where you're starting. As I said, you're entitled to your opinion, but it isn't that of an average player.

As for those asking why solo players don't want you to play in groups, you're asking the wrong question. Those of us who played solo were cooking along ok, especially given the population of the game - it was rare for me to have to wait more than 90-120 seconds for a match - during prime time it was usually less than a minute. Then enough people whined to Russ about not being able to get group drops, so you came in and messed up the balance of soloq. Why don't you want us solo players to have a fun mode of our own, I might ask you. This merge wrecked balance and competitiveness - that's not even my opinion, it comes from Russ and Paul. Threw it right out the window, and you're going to lose a bunch of solo players because of it. Maybe you gain a little more back than you lose, but why make a change that trades one for another instead of at least trying the opt-in method so many people mentioned? Because Russ and Paul don't know what they're doing, in part because they don't play their game. Driving out a bunch of players who were playing regularly in the hopes of bringing back some who might play regularly is just silly. Bird in the hand and all that jazz.

You win. You’ve obviously tied quite a bit of your self worth in your stats. You’ve played 110 games this season. I didn’t even know there were seasons or that there were stats you’d concern yourself with looking up.

Congrats on having that really good medium mech you play the hell out of. No, seriously, you’re entitled to really proud. I admit it. I suck. I guess more than half the people on my team suck more because I’m doing more damage and getting more kills.

since I now look up to you as a mentor; can you provide some tips?

Blackhorse11Cav, on 14 May 2020 - 04:45 PM, said:

Why? how has the addition of group play hampered YOUR play? play any other MMO and you will find solo and group play combined. how is the implementation here any different? I've been playing since day ONE and see no issues. Why do you experience something less than ideal, and what makes it less than ideal?

Their stats are suffering! The good players are playing in QP and it’s damaging to egos.

[Horseman]

Zulu211, on 14 May 2020 - 12:26 PM, said:

Thanks for not reading what I'd written. I said I finished in the top HALF of DAMAGE done per match. Where exactly is the damage stat in your penis length measuring tape?

Match score is largely a function of damage. Double the average score and you know roughly what the average damage is.
Chances are you're leaving a lot of matches once you lose your mech and therefore you're not counting them because you never saw the scoreboard.

Zulu211, on 14 May 2020 - 12:52 PM, said:

I guess I should have only run one particular type of mech so my stats would look better.

Nah. But if you're performing as your stats indicate, look into improving the builds you use and polish up your gameplay some.

Zulu211, on 14 May 2020 - 02:26 PM, said:

I now vow to have less fun, do less damage (or more) and play strictly toward the higher scores. I'm inspired.

Nobody said you should have less fun - quite the opposite, since losing generally isn't all that fun.
Looking at your stats... your survival rate is really low.
While score largely comes from damage, the key thing to remember is that dead mechs don't do damage. Play a little more cautiously, roll damage more often when you're not shooting and try to use cover rather than exposing yourself to enemy fire for prolonged time periods and you'll improve both your contribution to the team and your stats on the scoreboard as a consequence.
Second thing is that just doing damage is only one step - work on keeping your fire on same targets as long as possible and aiming for weak sections / ones more likely to score you a kill.