Jump to content

Combined Queues - Discoveries Week 1


342 replies to this topic

#41 Zoolder

    Rookie

  • The Hawk
  • The Hawk
  • 8 posts

Posted 04 May 2020 - 11:08 PM

I'm liking it so far, the only problem is I play with a group of like 8 people that I know in real life and we all want to play together but we can't at all anymore. We're not very experienced and can't do faction play yet. We used to have a blast back when group queue actually worked and could all play together.

It'd be nice if we could just guarantee we were in the same game, even if on opposing sides.

#42 Voice of Kerensky

    Member

  • PipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 38 posts

Posted 04 May 2020 - 11:17 PM

This was all said between things, in order to make it clearer: on how miserable a crooked system are you trying to build something workable.
Well, I would like to add that the matchmaker (as I expected) is not able to distinguish between groups of ordinary players from top players groups. The matchmaker allows the four top players to enter the battle against a team in which there is no group at all. The results of such matches, I believe, are easily predictable.

#43 MrMadguy

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,856 posts

Posted 04 May 2020 - 11:23 PM

My opinion - funny thing, but quality of matches was much higher, when there wasn't weight class balancing. Because, you know, for example I'm bad Assault pilot. Therefore for me playing in Heavy > playing in Assault. This assumption, that higher weight always > lower weight - is just misconception. Skill - is only thing, that really matters.

#44 _Casper_

    Member

  • PipPipPip
  • Bad Company
  • Bad Company
  • 59 posts

Posted 05 May 2020 - 12:12 AM

No matter what your data shows the solo player experience is ruined pretty much imo. It feels like being an npc. If you are ok with it fine but if you wanna keep your solo players in the game you should roll back the merging. I would not be surprised if it leads to another exodus of players in the long run. T5 players in matches with groups of T1 players is a disaster. Groups farming pugs is a disaster. The merged q is as frustrating as playing fp as as a solo player.
I will definitely stop playing MWO if the merging stays in the game. Thx for all the fun over the years but this definitely kills it for me.

Edited by _Casper_, 05 May 2020 - 12:14 AM.


#45 Zirconium Kaze

    Member

  • PipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 45 posts

Posted 05 May 2020 - 12:24 AM

View Post_Casper_, on 05 May 2020 - 12:12 AM, said:

No matter what your data shows the solo player experience is ruined pretty much imo. It feels like being an npc. If you are ok with it fine but if you wanna keep your solo players in the game you should roll back the merging. I would not be surprised if it leads to another exodus of players in the long run. T5 players in matches with groups of T1 players is a disaster. Groups farming pugs is a disaster. The merged q is as frustrating as playing fp as as a solo player.
I will definitely stop playing MWO if the merging stays in the game. Thx for all the fun over the years but this definitely kills it for me.

I play 99% solo and I enjoy the changes very much. I find, it's only frustrating when I do something wrong.

#46 Coffeeghoul

    Member

  • PipPipPip
  • 65 posts

Posted 05 May 2020 - 12:28 AM

View PostVoice of Kerensky, on 04 May 2020 - 11:17 PM, said:

This was all said between things, in order to make it clearer: on how miserable a crooked system are you trying to build something workable.
Well, I would like to add that the matchmaker (as I expected) is not able to distinguish between groups of ordinary players from top players groups. The matchmaker allows the four top players to enter the battle against a team in which there is no group at all. The results of such matches, I believe, are easily predictable.


I have screenshots from the last outcomes.. the best game was a 1-12, because we really pushed it to get someone down. ;)

#47 Coffeeghoul

    Member

  • PipPipPip
  • 65 posts

Posted 05 May 2020 - 12:40 AM

View Post_Casper_, on 05 May 2020 - 12:12 AM, said:

No matter what your data shows the solo player experience is ruined pretty much imo. It feels like being an npc. If you are ok with it fine but if you wanna keep your solo players in the game you should roll back the merging. I would not be surprised if it leads to another exodus of players in the long run. T5 players in matches with groups of T1 players is a disaster. Groups farming pugs is a disaster. The merged q is as frustrating as playing fp as as a solo player.
I will definitely stop playing MWO if the merging stays in the game. Thx for all the fun over the years but this definitely kills it for me.


When even you (looked up your stats in the Jarl's list) say that.. wow.
And I am the potatoe which gets farmed. :D

There are good players, mediocre players, bad players. Everone should have their spot to be in. You don't mix NFL players with minor league players. "Git gud" doesn't work for everyone. Not everyone has the skills or can get them (reasons) to reach the top. That's life in every aspect.

Speaking for myself, I had the absolute worst experiences ever in MWO since the changes and I'm gonna take a break from the game now.

#48 Coffeeghoul

    Member

  • PipPipPip
  • 65 posts

Posted 05 May 2020 - 01:13 AM

View PostPaul Inouye, on 04 May 2020 - 12:52 PM, said:

It now comes down to how much time is acceptable to get the Tier balancing and Weight balancing having a positive impact.


3 minutes. I rather wait and get a fair game than enter a match I have zero chance to win after 30 seconds.
2 wins and 2 losses in an hour versus 6 stomp-losses in an hour. Not really a hard choice.

#49 That Mech

    Rookie

  • Ace Of Spades
  • 5 posts

Posted 05 May 2020 - 01:30 AM

Or you know, just rename enemy pilots to Pilot 1-12 and only show them in end game screen. Removes any placebo effects one might have during loading screen and match.

"But I'm facing 4 Div A players, there's no way we are going to win this!!!" . *proceeds to play like a derp*

no bannerino pls.

Edited by That Mech, 05 May 2020 - 01:37 AM.


#50 Nother

    Member

  • Pip
  • The 1 Percent
  • 16 posts

Posted 05 May 2020 - 01:31 AM

Liking it so far. It's not a huge difference in terms of match experience as compared to Solo Q, just with an added bonus of being able to play with friends.

Played with only a pal in a 2-man group last night Oceanic timezone. Had some great games in the beginning and then some win-losses at the end. Did end up facing a couple of the same groups towards the end of play, but other than that it's not a significant difference in terms of game experience.

Perhaps with actual PSR, matchmaking in MWO can finally be *fixed*.

#51 Horseman

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • CS 2019 Top 8 Qualifier
  • CS 2019 Top 8 Qualifier
  • 2,967 posts
  • LocationPoland

Posted 05 May 2020 - 01:49 AM

View PostFRAGTAST1C, on 04 May 2020 - 07:52 PM, said:

While it's a grand accomplishment that you've been tweaking numbers here and there, I'd suggest for you, Russ and Chris to play some matches as well to get first-hand experience of how things are going.

Ooof

View PostManOfAthens, on 04 May 2020 - 08:14 PM, said:

I think I was in that game too. The other side (one with 7 assaults) also had a group on it of at least 2 or 3. Guys I had seen earlier who have been running LRM Awesomes together. Not sure how that factors in, but you would think that groups should end up with lower tonnage due to the limitations, no?
AWS-8R is 80 tons, the lowest tonnage considered an assault mech.

#52 Decency

    Member

  • Pip
  • 10 posts

Posted 05 May 2020 - 03:29 AM

PSR Skill Tiers are meaningless for balance. Please use something better or this will never improve.

#53 Larsh

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Shredder
  • Shredder
  • 270 posts
  • Facebook: Link
  • Twitter: Link
  • Twitch: Link
  • LocationYinz all going to EnP at PGH n'at?

Posted 05 May 2020 - 03:48 AM

View PostFRAGTAST1C, on 04 May 2020 - 07:52 PM, said:

While it's a grand accomplishment that you've been tweaking numbers here and there, I'd suggest for you, Russ and Chris to play some matches as well to get first-hand experience of how things are going.

Dude, I'd love to watch their live-stream

#54 Larsh

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Shredder
  • Shredder
  • 270 posts
  • Facebook: Link
  • Twitter: Link
  • Twitch: Link
  • LocationYinz all going to EnP at PGH n'at?

Posted 05 May 2020 - 04:23 AM

View PostFrigginWaffle, on 04 May 2020 - 08:12 PM, said:

Adjustments to the weight or tier classes or not, at least change the spawn points of the lances to be much closer to their respective team, so that the slow assaults who randomly get put in the alpha lance don't get rushed and caught so easily. Would prevent a lot of frustration in the first place.

This has been an issue in group que for years and nothing happened so I'm hoping these times finally catch the attention.

View PostTarogato, on 04 May 2020 - 10:12 PM, said:

Much info, much wow. God, dang someone pin this comment so we can reference back to it. A lot of good points to be had here.

This is the type of research I began here, with limited resources available:
https://mwomercs.com...is-of-the-12-0/


Before we can achieve a proper balance between MM time, and quality of matches, we need to improve both our means of assessing the actual quality of a match, and our means of measuring the value of an individual player (how influential they routinely are on the outcome of a match). Until then, I daresay it would be safer to simply lean towards quicker matches.

View PostMrMadguy, on 04 May 2020 - 11:23 PM, said:

My opinion - funny thing, but quality of matches was much higher, when there wasn't weight class balancing. Because, you know, for example I'm bad Assault pilot. Therefore for me playing in Heavy > playing in Assault. This assumption, that higher weight always > lower weight - is just misconception. Skill - is only thing, that really matters.

View PostThat Mech, on 05 May 2020 - 01:30 AM, said:

Or you know, just rename enemy pilots to Pilot 1-12 and only show them in end game screen. Removes any placebo effects one might have during loading screen and match.

"But I'm facing 4 Div A players, there's no way we are going to win this!!!" . *proceeds to play like a derp*

no bannerino pls.


My 2 cents from playing this past week, and what Triforce of balance that Paul is basing this system on.

Focus more on skill and matchmaker speed. Some have mentioned that they perform better in lights, or mediums, instead of Heavy and Assaults. When dropping as a group, some felt compelled to fill the tonnage as not to reduce the possible number of heavier mechs for our 12 man.

But, doing so doesn't mean that those players feel comfortable in that weight class. Only that they didn't want to have no assaults drop on their team. Because, let's face it, we've seen it happen. Either no assaults on a team, or those in assaults not comfortable or skilled in that weight class.

I'd rather take the extra seconds of wait time if it means players are grouping against similar skill players.

Also, re-evaluate drop zones. It seems that maps were created with drops zones with tonnage in mind. Since we are seeing assaults drop in the "Alpha Lance Drop Zone" this isn't helping those with the earlier mentioned item of non skilled assault pilots dropping there.

Also, good point from That Mech. Sometimes dropping against a team, and seeing who you are facing isn't always that great. Makes for a mentally preparedness that "Welp, this is gonna suck. Guess I'll just give up already."

#55 Spare Knight

    Member

  • PipPipPip
  • Bad Company
  • 65 posts
  • LocationAlso StankDog the damp

Posted 05 May 2020 - 04:38 AM

View PostZoolder, on 04 May 2020 - 11:08 PM, said:

I'm liking it so far, the only problem is I play with a group of like 8 people that I know in real life and we all want to play together but we can't at all anymore. We're not very experienced and can't do faction play yet. We used to have a blast back when group queue actually worked and could all play together.

It'd be nice if we could just guarantee we were in the same game, even if on opposing sides.


You guys could go to a private lobby and would be together every match. You could choose your maps, etc. It works very well. We do it for training and such. Posted Image

#56 Brauer

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • CS 2019 Top 8 Qualifier
  • CS 2019 Top 8 Qualifier
  • 494 posts

Posted 05 May 2020 - 04:42 AM

Still saw a cadet in a match last night, so has the matchmaker been tightened up in any noticeable way?

#57 Spare Knight

    Member

  • PipPipPip
  • Bad Company
  • 65 posts
  • LocationAlso StankDog the damp

Posted 05 May 2020 - 04:49 AM

View PostKamikaze Viking, on 04 May 2020 - 10:45 PM, said:


We don't need to make more work than is necessary. Also we used to have Elo, it was replaced by PSR. its unlikely that they will rebuild the system again, so try to work within that system.

The Key problem here is that PSR has an upward bias, That is all.
As PSR is the Foundation for the Tiers, And Tiers are used by the Matchmaker. It is the equivalent of bad building foundations.

BUT the system Paul made was designed well (if I understand it correctly). The only issue being the default values chosen were never adjusted.

This is what we currently have:
Posted Image
This is what my version would be: (note, no programming required, only value changes)
Posted Image
Or Alternately this (which does require a small amount programming)
Posted Image


And I believe this minor change fits with everything Tarogato said above.
By fixing this SKILL issue here at the PSR level, then Tiers are set correctly, & it doesn't need to be fixed at the MM Triangle shown in Pauls OP. Hence Paul can focus the MM on getting fast matches, because the Skill component is dealt with elsewhere.

Note: this change would not have an instant effect on the matchmaker but it would correct Skill vs tier issues over time. But if a PSR reset or re-distribution was also done afterwards then its benefits would show up straight away.


I think the values we have now are OK. Your first changed listed still would not help due to the fact that you still need two losses in a row before you get a downward change.

I would propose to just leave values as they are and just take out the requirement of 2 losses in a row to drop in tier rating. This would put an end to it being an experience bar. Posted Image

Edited by Spare Knight, 05 May 2020 - 05:25 AM.


#58 Voice of Kerensky

    Member

  • PipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 38 posts

Posted 05 May 2020 - 04:59 AM

Played a few more hours. Yeah...
I hope, that by the end of this test at least some players will remain in the game.

#59 Doobix

    Member

  • Pip
  • 16 posts
  • Location7th Talon Cluster The Pride of Ironhold

Posted 05 May 2020 - 05:12 AM

Tier balancing... for real? Tier system doesnt work for a long time. Everyone in this game TIER 1 BRO, you dont need a skill to reach Tier 1, Tier is nothing in MWO. I really think we need normal ranking system (like in D*ta 2) or something else, but not TIER SYSTEM PLS NO GOD, PLS NO.

#60 Zirconium Kaze

    Member

  • PipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 45 posts

Posted 05 May 2020 - 05:37 AM

View PostBrauer, on 05 May 2020 - 04:42 AM, said:

Still saw a cadet in a match last night, so has the matchmaker been tightened up in any noticeable way?

That cadet was in my group.





3 user(s) are reading this topic

1 members, 2 guests, 0 anonymous users