95 replies to this topic

[Dionnsai]

How I would fix lurms with my magic wand:

We pretend there is some sort of "radar" involved here, but this basic thing is true in actual game play (with the exception of NARC): All locks are based on line of sight, either you, an ally or a UAV are able to see the target directly. However, lock on missiles are the only weapon that can continue to be fired at a target that no one is able to see. Thus I would:

• Require TAG laser for all indirect locks from allies.

• Rework target retention as a calculation of target's last known velocity and vector (best guess rather than lock) and possibly require skill nodes or a targeting computer of some sort for that functionality.

• Reduce NARC duration and/or add some sort of consumable countermeasure (Armor EMP burst or something). That and the NARC obviously should be rapidly destroyed or knocked loose when hit by the missiles that are homing in on it. PPC burst should also break NARC.

• UAV's I would leave as is because there is an immediate countermeasure, you can shoot the little **** down.

[Novakaine]

[Sjorpha]

Dionnsai, on 12 May 2020 - 09:09 AM, said:

How I would fix lurms with my magic wand:

We pretend there is some sort of "radar" involved here, but this basic thing is true in actual game play (with the exception of NARC): All locks are based on line of sight, either you, an ally or a UAV are able to see the target directly. However, lock on missiles are the only weapon that can continue to be fired at a target that no one is able to see. Thus I would:

• Require TAG laser for all indirect locks from allies.

• Rework target retention as a calculation of target's last known velocity and vector (best guess rather than lock) and possibly require skill nodes or a targeting computer of some sort for that functionality.

• Reduce NARC duration and/or add some sort of consumable countermeasure (Armor EMP burst or something). That and the NARC obviously should be rapidly destroyed or knocked loose when hit by the missiles that are homing in on it. PPC burst should also break NARC.

• UAV's I would leave as is because there is an immediate countermeasure, you can shoot the little **** down.

All your changes are nerfs to lrms, but lrms are not overpowered right now, in most situations weaker than direct fire weapons. So from a balance viewpoint its very hard to justify those changes.

What exactly is the problem to "fix" here?

[The pessimistic optimist]

Sjorpha, on 12 May 2020 - 02:00 PM, said:

All your changes are nerfs to lrms, but lrms are not overpowered right now, in most situations weaker than direct fire weapons. So from a balance viewpoint its very hard to justify those changes.

What exactly is the problem to "fix" here?

LRM are in a good spot there useful but not too good

Edited by SirSmokes, 12 May 2020 - 02:06 PM.

[Sjorpha]

SirSmokes, on 12 May 2020 - 02:06 PM, said:

LRM are in a good spot there useful but not too good

I agree.

[Nearly Dead]

There is a difference between annoying and over powered.

LRM hating has become a fashion statement. "I hate LRMs and LRMers, so I sit with the cool kids in the cafeteria".

I hardly play my 6 x LRM15 Nova Cat anymore because too often I did 1000+ damage and we lost. Even with an active probe and a TC and moving with the team I had to constantly shoot at whatever lock I could get if I wanted to keep missiles in the air constantly, which is my only job; so I would spread 800-1300 damage across 9-12 mechs, kill maybe one and then get eaten by lights and mediums when the rush came. What does 1000-1200 damage translate to in a laser vomit mech? 4 kills? Maybe 5?

Plus, LRMs hardly inhibit movement. I can hold a choke point for a long time with 4 AC-2s and an ERLL. Most mechs fall back and try to peek and shoot. Shoot them with LRMs? RUSH THE LRM ****!!

And the whole argument that a weapon system is illogical in this game is irrelevant. Very few of the weapons make any sense, the tech are excuses to have different looking effects for doing the same, not unbalancing, damage.

Just one example. Radar antennas can spin. Really, we could see behind us. Electric motor, radar dish. Not hard at all. 1940s technology.

[thievingmagpi]

Nearly Dead, on 12 May 2020 - 03:51 PM, said:

There is a difference between annoying and over powered.

LRM hating has become a fashion statement. "I hate LRMs and LRMers, so I sit with the cool kids in the cafeteria".

No it's done because it's a clear and obvious truth.

Nearly Dead, on 12 May 2020 - 03:51 PM, said:

I hardly play my 6 x LRM15 Nova Cat anymore because too often I did 1000+ damage and we lost. Even with an active probe and a TC and moving with the team I had to constantly shoot at whatever lock I could get if I wanted to keep missiles in the air constantly, which is my only job; so I would spread 800-1300 damage across 9-12 mechs, kill maybe one and then get eaten by lights and mediums when the rush came. What does 1000-1200 damage translate to in a laser vomit mech? 4 kills? Maybe 5?

So what you're saying is you put in zero effort and still manage 1k damage?

Point proven.

Nearly Dead, on 12 May 2020 - 03:51 PM, said:

Plus, LRMs hardly inhibit movement. I can hold a choke point for a long time with 4 AC-2s and an ERLL. Most mechs fall back and try to peek and shoot. Shoot them with LRMs? RUSH THE LRM ****!!

Turns out you both have to aim and risk taking damage with things like lasers and ballistics.

[OmniFail]

thievingmagpi, on 12 May 2020 - 05:25 PM, said:

Turns out you both have to aim and risk taking damage with things like lasers and ballistics.

Coming form a person that stats dropped as the seal clubbing group cue population caved and when he could no longer maintain any reasonable level of shamming stopped playing on his main altogether.

Your not taking any risk at all with your troll post.

Don't take it personal. There's lots of noobs like you.

Edited by OmniFail, 12 May 2020 - 06:30 PM.

[thievingmagpi]

OmniFail, on 12 May 2020 - 06:29 PM, said:

Coming form a person that stats dropped as the seal clubbing group cue population caved and when he could no longer maintain any reasonable level of shamming stopped playing on his main altogether.

huh? sorry, your weird bad brain is failing at putting together basic concepts again.

OmniFail, on 12 May 2020 - 06:29 PM, said:

Your not taking any risk at all with your troll post.

Don't take it personal. There's lots of noobs like you.

whatever you say bud

[VonBruinwald]

FRAGTAST1C, on 10 May 2020 - 06:14 PM, said:

Gonna have a nice night of sleep now, aren't ya?

Would have done if I hadn't broke the bed...

Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, on 12 May 2020 - 04:23 AM, said:

please stop bringing sensible things to a discussion that clearly doesn't care about them ..

The irony of people bringing lurms into a derp thread.

Dionnsai, on 12 May 2020 - 09:09 AM, said:

How I would fix lurms with my magic wand:

We pretend there is some sort of "radar" involved here, but this basic thing is true in actual game play (with the exception of NARC): All locks are based on line of sight, either you, an ally or a UAV are able to see the target directly. However, lock on missiles are the only weapon that can continue to be fired at a target that no one is able to see. Thus I would:

• Require TAG laser for all indirect locks from allies.

• Rework target retention as a calculation of target's last known velocity and vector (best guess rather than lock) and possibly require skill nodes or a targeting computer of some sort for that functionality.

• Reduce NARC duration and/or add some sort of consumable countermeasure (Armor EMP burst or something). That and the NARC obviously should be rapidly destroyed or knocked loose when hit by the missiles that are homing in on it. PPC burst should also break NARC.

• UAV's I would leave as is because there is an immediate countermeasure, you can shoot the little **** down.

Good suggestions (not that this thread is about fixing lurms). Couple of tweaks. See mine and YouKnowKnothings discussion on LOS radar mechanics (all radar based off LOS,).

• Tag for indirect locks. If we go for proper (networked) LOS radar then as long as a unit has LOS to target and you have LOS to the spotter then indirect fire should be possible. The necessity of maintaining that chain of LOS would also apply to NARC (Narc would no longer work as a spotter).
  
• "Rework target retention as a calculation of target's last known velocity and vector" - I've always imagined this is how target retention works, in an abstract manner. If PGI went for a true last know, I'm sure players would ask for a lead target pip for their ballistic weapons as an extension of this feature.
  
• NARC being disabled by PPC's when hit is actually a pretty nifty idea. I would have it be temporary and for the same duration as ECM. Not sure how I feel about disabling when firing though:
  
  
  "PPCs are equipped with a Field Inhibitor to prevent feedback which could damage the firing unit's electronic systems." - Sarna.net
  So for ER/Snub PPCs, it would have to be a no, but for none ER/Snub I don't see why not as long as they're impacting within the 90m deadzone.

Sjorpha, on 12 May 2020 - 02:00 PM, said:

All your changes are nerfs to lrms, but lrms are not overpowered right now, in most situations weaker than direct fire weapons. So from a balance viewpoint its very hard to justify those changes.

True, but if you nerf the LOS/Radar mechanics you can always buff the lock-on time/spread. Raises the skill floor and make them more effective when being used appropriately. I doubt the ePeen crowd will complain if it takes more skill to use them.

Nearly Dead, on 12 May 2020 - 03:51 PM, said:

There is a difference between annoying and over powered.

LRM hating has become a fashion statement. "I hate LRMs and LRMers, so I sit with the cool kids in the cafeteria".

thievingmagpi, on 12 May 2020 - 05:25 PM, said:

No it's done because it's a clear and obvious truth.

Could you clarify your response please, pi. Are you saying they're not OP, they're not annoying or that you're not a cool kid? What is this "truth" you speak of...

You're back down to a -C, your statement isn't stupid this time but it does lack coherency.

Edited by VonBruinwald, 13 May 2020 - 04:14 AM.

[Sjorpha]

VonBruinwald, on 13 May 2020 - 04:13 AM, said:

True, but if you nerf the LOS/Radar mechanics you can always buff the lock-on time/spread. Raises the skill floor and make them more effective when being used appropriately. I doubt the ePeen crowd will complain if it takes more skill to use them.

You could, but as far as I can see there is no good reason to do it.

There isn't any real problem to fix here. There is no balance problem, and whether the current mechanics are good or bad is a matter of taste. Since there is no good data on what most people would prefer you can't really use the anecdotal complaints as a reason to change it because you'll very likely have as many people hating the changes as liking them, so it's a waste of work hours that could be used to adress real issues.

Just leave them as they are.

[Sjorpha]

thievingmagpi, on 12 May 2020 - 05:25 PM, said:

So what you're saying is you put in zero effort and still manage 1k damage?

Point proven.

1k ineffective damage. Damage is nothing on it's own, a losing strategy is a losing strategy no matter how much damage you have.

Also required effort has nothing to do with balance. If a weapon is overpowered it's overpowered no matter how hard it is to use, if a weapon is underpowered it's underpowered no matter how easy it is to use.

It makes sense to have easy to use weapons be a little weaker than hard to use weapons, but this is already the case with LRMs in most scenarios.

[John Bronco]

Coordinated LRMs are still very strong, has been since they buffed the **** out of them 2ish years ago. Anyone who's played faction since then can attest to that, but of course in that format you can anticipate it ahead of time and try to counter.

But now we're seeing these coordinated drops in the new qp with little ability to counter without limiting yourself to ECM or AMS boats, and even then 1 properly equipped mech is not enough against 4+ LRM boats.

[thievingmagpi]

VonBruinwald, on 13 May 2020 - 04:13 AM, said:

Could you clarify your response please, pi. Are you saying they're not OP, they're not annoying or that you're not a cool kid? What is this "truth" you speak of...

You're back down to a -C, your statement isn't stupid this time but it does lack coherency.

It's easy, just focus and read.

Sjorpha, on 13 May 2020 - 05:48 AM, said:

1k ineffective damage. Damage is nothing on it's own, a losing strategy is a losing strategy no matter how much damage you have.

Great, I've done 1600 damage in mpl boats and teams still find a way to lose. That's not a great metric. EZ 1k damage with no effort and little in the way of punishment? Lmao. GG

Sjorpha, on 13 May 2020 - 05:48 AM, said:

Also required effort has nothing to do with balance. If a weapon is overpowered it's overpowered no matter how hard it is to use, if a weapon is underpowered it's underpowered no matter how easy it is to use.

No, that's a large part of balance. Zero effort nets you easy 1k. That is not balance.

[RickySpanish]

Sjorpha, on 13 May 2020 - 05:48 AM, said:

1k ineffective damage. Damage is nothing on it's own, a losing strategy is a losing strategy no matter how much damage you have.

Also required effort has nothing to do with balance. If a weapon is overpowered it's overpowered no matter how hard it is to use, if a weapon is underpowered it's underpowered no matter how easy it is to use.

It makes sense to have easy to use weapons be a little weaker than hard to use weapons, but this is already the case with LRMs in most scenarios.

Well no, if your strategy includes damage up to and including the entire healtth pool of the enemy team, then that's a winning strategy. Clearly then, at some point higher damage is a better strategy, evwn moreso than moderate pinpoint damage.

Edited by RickySpanish, 13 May 2020 - 01:31 PM.

[VonBruinwald]

thievingmagpi, on 13 May 2020 - 11:36 AM, said:

It's easy, just focus and read.

""And so in the end I knew what Magpi said about the way things were had forever changed the way we all thought about them.""

[crazytimes]

BlaizerP, on 13 May 2020 - 06:13 AM, said:

But now we're seeing these coordinated drops in the new qp with little ability to counter without limiting yourself to ECM or AMS boats, and even then 1 properly equipped mech is not enough against 4+ LRM boats.

Is that an issue though? I haven't seen it once, let alone enough to identify as a concern. I feel there are more meta builds than LRM boats for lances, unless they are doing it for a giggle.

Most of the 4 manners I've seen dominate seem to revolve around some of the meta ballistic builds.

[Vellron2005]

VonBruinwald, on 10 May 2020 - 05:10 AM, said:

100% Radar Derp

I'm not complaining about the derp itself but if a player builds their mech for Target Decay Duration providing a 100% counter for their investment is unfair. I understand it takes 5 more nodes for maximum derp vs. maximum durr but that's not a valid excuse. Imagine you could pick up full immunity to enemy strikes via 10 nodes (and yes, I understand that's a silly concept).

I'd suggest dropping each node to 15% for a maximum reduction of 75%. I'd even accept 19/95% as a token gesture in recognition of the issue.

/vent.

I hear you man.

And people who use this are usually the same people killing you in 3-4 shots from 1200 meters with gazillion AC2.. and they said LRMs were OP.. Unless you yourself are using the same cheeze spam as them, you're underpowered and castrated in comparison.. and that's why we currently play "snipewarrior online"..

[General Solo]

Honestly I think it's pointless talking about weapons and balance without a level playing field, like a functioning match maker.
Without a functioning match maker, people will just get owned by the next best weapons system.
Im kinda thankfull for maintaince mode, changes will be minimal.

[Brizna]

I opened this thread fearful someone might actually put the focus in the Quarantine yelling so much the devs would actually hear and do something about it... but nope I can keep farming assault clan mechs in FW, people are still worried about lurms...

Keep calm,

carry murming

Edited by Brizna, 14 May 2020 - 04:08 AM.