849 replies to this topic

[Snowscape]

Reset everything.

If zero sum PSR is too dependent on team results, then factor in match score and damage done into the equation as well.

Use a percentile or percentile range to describe player's "skill level" rather than tier.

Display this number for each player at the match launch screen so games will be more strategic. This would help new players.

Thanks.

[Chatty]

Do it! Make an event out of it. Kick off an email to get some old players back. Do note that you only get once chance so test it well.

[Xiphias]

Reset PSR
Make PSR zero sum
Make PSR movement a bit faster than it currently is

and...

Add a new XP bar for people who have ground out lots of games (e.g. like the ranks in faction play).

This allows players that have played for a long time and ground out a lot of matches to still have something that they can feel accomplished by achieving and it allows the matchmaker to be balanced correctly by having accurate tiers.

Centurio GER, on 26 May 2020 - 09:31 AM, said:

It will be a pain in the back for those who are tier 1 to reach their old tier. To give you an estimate: with my alternate account I needed 130 or so matches to go from tier 5 to 3, another 900 matches to go from tier 3 to 2, further 2000 matches to reach tier 1 and finally 1000 matches to fill the tier 1 bar. With such a grind in front of us I can not see how anyone can be enthusiastic about that.

PSR should be reset, made zero sum, and move more quickly than it does currently and makes the seeding matches less significant than they currently are.

Spoiler

JoeCold, on 25 May 2020 - 05:12 PM, said:

Second, why does win/loss affect PSR at all? Isn't it pilot skill, not teamwork skill?

Anomalocaris, on 25 May 2020 - 05:32 PM, said:

Well said. If one or two players carry a huge load in a match with a bunch of potatoes but still lose, why do they get punished for being saddled with crap teammates?

Sniper09121986, on 26 May 2020 - 02:22 AM, said:

I remember a discussion of a unit drop-caller on a Raven with K/D of 0.5 or so but W/L of about 20. Clearly an above-the-salt guy with good understanding of the game, but how do you account for him? And why should people get hit in their PSR after making all three kills in a 3-12 loss?

FlynnTheAvatar, on 26 May 2020 - 05:57 AM, said:

- Winning a game does not mean that you personally played well
- Losing a game does not mean that you personally played bad

Over a large number of matches a good pilot will win more often than a bad pilot. In random matches the only consistent factor is the player (or premade now) and ones that contribute the most will win the most over team. Individual match PSR adjustments don't need to accurately reflect a pilot's performance as long as the aggregate PSR changes reflect the pilot skill.

Going down on a loss where you did a lot of damage feels bad, but overall wins is really the most accurate way of measuring a player's contribution to a game. It just needs a lot of matches to balance out.

Spoiler

AnUndeadMonkey, on 25 May 2020 - 05:58 PM, said:

I’m good enough to be T1.

You overestimate you skill at the game.

If you're actually a T2-3 player (which is looks like you are) who got to T1 by grinding out a bunch of matches then you will drop down and stay in the tier you should be unless you improve and move up. If it took you a lot of effort to get into T1 then you probably aren't a T1 player.

K4I 4LL4RD LI4O, on 25 May 2020 - 10:20 PM, said:

Don't you dare touch my tier level! I worked hard to get where I am today. You took away enough of us as it is! Find a better solution for once!

The Ghost Walker, on 26 May 2020 - 09:00 AM, said:

Please don’t NOT reset the tiers.
I busted my *** to get to full bar Tier 1 status.

If you're good enough to be in T1 then you'll get back there quickly enough by playing regularly and you have nothing to worry about. If you aren't then you never should have been there to begin with.

Spoiler

Ebelon, on 26 May 2020 - 06:57 AM, said:

With all respect, Gentleman, they are not!

Especially the "git gud" crowd is not right.
Since all they prove is they mastered to gain the max of the actual PSR calculation, which means:

- do as much damage as possible, leading to shoot torsos, instead the already yellow / red CT
- stay behind, use meat shields with your heavy and or assault mechs to be able to do as much damage as possible
- steal kills wherever possible

Getting to tier 1 very fast requires not being a good team player, but to misuse the PSR calculation which leads to playing selfishly

Others, who try to be a bonus to the team do not get the rewards, they earn because they usually die earlier (Assault, pulling the fire on a rush and so on).

Everybody, who feels "top tier" by getting there in no time since his skill is so good, is not a worthy lancemate.

Like I said before:
- Remove tier indicator in the client, so players do not know in which tier they are in
- change tier calculation to reward team players more than selfish players who just abuse the system (of course thats the tricky part, to determine, who has contributed to the team and who has not)

Ebelon, on 26 May 2020 - 07:46 AM, said:

Again the K/D fan of 12 year old minded guy...
K/D ratio means nothing on how you contribute to the team (and therefore contribute to winning a game)
I can stay behind, play passive, soot torsos to get more damage and so on, that means nothing. Not that you are good nor that you are of value in a drop.

The issue behind that is, that constantly doing high damage shows only, that you abuse the damage count (shot LT and RT instead of getting the instant kill) - double positive feedback because you get automatically KMDD.

And you guys pointing to K/D ratios are the reason, why we have all these issues.
The game does not reward team players - it rewards selfish players, who abuse the tier and damage calculation and profit from others, who do the real work.

Stats can be farmed to a point. Wins will show how much a player is contributing towards the team more than damage, but damage and kills are absolutely important to getting wins. Yes, a player might farm damage, but at the cost of losing more matches. Good players usually focus on doing good damage, thus they win more, and get a chance to get more damage.

Players that consistently get few kills and do little damage almost always have a poor WLR. High damage/KDR may not make you a good player, but low damage/KDR almost certainly makes you a bad one.

[Belacose]

Scout Derek, on 26 May 2020 - 10:27 AM, said:

Depends. If there was no "boswer", or "bear" in the players name with me, I'm pretty sure I was solo that drop.

If you're referring to 'bear_cl4w', no he wasn't there. Not sure who the others were.

Gotta ask if you call games when dropping solo? Having the most goddly stats of anyone playing the game still I had just assumed you only played in groups.

Before i quit playing 3 years ago i recall you were more of an average player stat-wise. I come back and see you're now top dog. Good job!

[El Maestro]

I am for resetting it.
I am not a top competitive player I am atmost tier 2. so what am I doing in Tier 1?

[NRP]

Yeah, resetting Tier is probably the best thing to do to reset the skill distribution. I just want good, close matches. I don't give a crap about a number next to my name.

[Sniper09121986]

Daidachi, on 26 May 2020 - 10:18 AM, said:

Do it. Reset it.

Tiers shouldn't be Progress Warrior Online. Hell, hide them from everyone if people are really that upset about losing something that is purely a match making algorithm rather than an 'achievement'.

I cannot reinforce this enough people - a Tier isn't a participation trophy. Stop thinking of it as one.

Participation is all that this system rewards. So currently tier number is literally exactly that - a participation trophy And stat-shamers still gonna stat-shame with The List. The less-than-obvious benefit of zero-sum system is that if MM places people within their ability they can have better personal stats by not having to deal with elite-level enemies and/or useless teammates anymore. Everybody wins!

[WarmasterRaptor]

CompleteFailure, on 25 May 2020 - 06:01 PM, said:

[...] Win/loss needs to have MUCH less weight when determining movement on the PSR scale, if not no effect at all. I do think that someone on a losing team that does exceptionally well despite the loss could still have a positive PSR movement, and someone who does exceptionally poorly despite winning could still have a negative PSR movement. I think the PSR system should, more than anything else, measure PERSONAL performance (hence the "P" in Pilot Skill Rating), with winning/losing a match having little to no effect on that score. [...]

I'd like to fully second/sign/support the quote on top of saying Yes to the reset,

I agree heavily on the fact that your PSR (P = either Personnal or Pilot) should NOT depend on 11 other people that you cannot possibly directly control their mechs.

Edited by WarmasterRaptor, 26 May 2020 - 01:41 PM.

[LordNothing]

Brauer, on 26 May 2020 - 12:30 PM, said:

No. It flatly does not make sense to boost the rewards for objectives by all that much because 1) sitting on cap points or shooting stationary buildings is not challenging (rewarding players more for actions that require zero effort or skill is a bad idea), and 2) sitting on cap points is largely not as important as getting kills in QP.

If you check out players with high WLRs you'll see that generally they all are pretty damn good at doing damage and securing kills.

objectives in qp are meaningless and any mode in qp is skirmish.

however the thing about conquest fp edition isnt that you had to sit on cap points, but that you had to control the map. meaning rather than a massive deathball collision you end up breaking off into little pocket battles. rather than sitting in one spot trading the whole match. you are forced to not only use your mech's weaponry but also its mobility. you get wolfpacks, light hunters, assaults and heavies used as area denial or to confront any concentrated forces. theres always a new problem to deal with. most importantly you are rewarded for taking risks, something almost all other modes flat out punish. it was the only mode to sufficiently mix up the game where the others failed. and no the qp version is not a substitute, its effectively skirmish. removing it was a horrible mistake. there are lots of modes with meaningless token objectives that can be removed.

[Rooster6]

Hi i am constantly getting killed in Matchs now not good fun it use be fun

[ShooteyMcShooterson]

Shouldn't be tiers at all, it should be a numerical value calculated for each player based on a much larger range, like 1-1000.

Any new system must be able to identify and appropriately rank the game's top players, so that the MM can at least ensure they don't wind up on the same team, because their top shelf skills are hidden behind a broad 1-5 scale that lumps the best players of players in with the other top 20%.

Also, once the matchmaker has figured out the team composition, it then has to decide which mechs go in which lances and which spawns they will drop at. The speed of the mechs, and much less so the tonnage needs to be a deciding factor is who goes where, with the slowest mechs dropping in the 'safest' position. That would help tremendously with the whole assaults being eaten alive as the team runs away thing.

(And can you finally move the spawns in 2-3 grids closer to the circle on polar domination?)

Oh and if you want a baseline for the tiers for zero-sum PSR, use Jarl's List to greatly speed up the seeding.

[Drunk Canuck]

Ultimately, Zero Sum has been something we've been asking for ever since the tier system was introduced. I think the goal should be better quality matches for higher tier players over frequency, but that's just my opinion.

Tier 1 should effectively be for the top say 5% of players, tier 2 should be for anyone in the top say 20% of overall players, and then so on and so forth down the ladder. I also think that there should be values for a zero sum system where performance by weight class can dictate how much your rating improves. If you have say a game in a light Mech where you do like 500+ damage and notch a few kills, your rating should increase more than playing in an assault who has a similar performance, as the feat of doing so in a light is more challenging than doing it in an assault. And the same should also be true, if you don't play smart and just get yourself clobbered in an assault because you decided to hang back away from your team and you only do less than 100 damage, your rating should be a negative, even if your team wins the match.

I don't like a system where player rating is determined primarily by wins and losses. Performance metrics are important in creating ideal matches and gauging where the player is relative to the rest of the population. I do understand that it is a very difficult ask to have a system like that, but it's really the only true way to make the game more enjoyable for everyone. If you flat out suck, you are going to be stuck in tier 4 or 5 and playing against lowbies where you belong, if you are a middling player (which I know I can be, if I play enough), you'll be matched up against similarly ranked players with the occasional high tier players spread evenly on both sides.

Performance Metrics should be rated as follows:

1. Kills
2. Damage Taken (obviously relative to your Mech's weight class/total armor potential scaled so as not to be a detriment to lighter chassis)
3. Components Destroyed
4. Time Alive
5. Damage Done (much like damage taken, should be factored relative to your weight class and maximum tonnage)
6. Win/Loss
7. Assists

You might ask me why I think the metrics should be prioritized in that order? Simple, damage farming is common among lower skill players (lurm and streak boats anyone?) and while I don't want to make it seem like they aren't legitimate play styles, they are less effective for killing efficiency than say SRM's or ballistics and lasers. Ultimately that promotes the concept that if you want to get better, you should play better builds that are more effective. Those that choose not to would have significantly slower PSR growth than someone who more useful to their team.

Edited by Drunk Canuck, 26 May 2020 - 02:23 PM.

[Scout Derek]

Belacose, on 26 May 2020 - 01:19 PM, said:

If you're referring to 'bear_cl4w', no he wasn't there. Not sure who the others were.

Gotta ask if you call games when dropping solo? Having the most goddly stats of anyone playing the game still I had just assumed you only played in groups.

Before i quit playing 3 years ago i recall you were more of an average player stat-wise. I come back and see you're now top dog. Good job!

not bear claw, another bear.

And, it's a 50/50 deal. Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. I've turned off VOIP so I can focus more on the game and less on the backseating voices when I'm the last alive.

My stats were mediocre because my PC and people I played with were mediocre. Now that I have a halfway decent PC, I can actually perform.

[Texas Red]

You asked for feedback:

Please re-configure PSR and reset the player ratings.

When re-configuring the PSR system, please ignore whether the team wins or loses, and base the skill rating on the player's personal performance.

Thanx,

TT

Edited by Texas Red, 26 May 2020 - 06:16 PM.

[7Zebras]

PSR Reset hells yeah!!!! I can't wait to build up the bar again. I have so much money and so many mechs it would be nice to have another metric to follow and pursue. With no reward except the pride of getting back to tier one before all my friends do....

[Snukums]

Reset the PSR. Player rankings will equalize quickly.

[Leidulfr]

AnUndeadMonkey, on 25 May 2020 - 04:33 PM, said:

Don’t rest any tier rankings. I’m not going to grind from T4 to T1 again. Last time I sat in T3&T2 for close to a year before moving out of them. I’ll quit, and I played since beta. The matches are far from balanced. I have had matches were one team has had 1 assault class Mech and the other had 4 assault class mechs, this past Saturday. The group queue and solo mix screwed everything up. You have 4 mans running off doing their own thing ignoring the rest of the “team” and everyone loses by a 12-0 stomp. The solo QP games are trash, bring back knockdown and escort since you want the game play to suck. Must really be trying to push players away.

1) Why do you care about your tier, especially if the MM is pulling from all tiers irregardless, due to the low player pool? You said yourself the balance is all out of wack.

2) If it's a "grind" for you to get out of it, why do you play? What benefit is there for you to play with the label of Tier 1?

3) If it's a "grind" for you to get out of it, maybe you belong in those tiers? A year to move up, seriously? My wife picked up the game and played for three weeks and is in tier 2 already.

4) You've played since beta and you still struggle to make it to Tier 1? Just given the amount of games played, with the current system, even with losses, having played for that long, you should still be ranking up on losses, unless you're just bad, in which case, you simply belong in the tier you're in. Again, why does it matter to you? Why don't you just quit?

[GiovaniCsK]

Go ahead, just make the game better, I don't care about my Tier.

[T e c h 4 9]

Reset PSR.

Make it zero-sum.

Currently it is nothing more than an experience bar, if that. Eventually, every spud can make it to T1 if they play long enough (like, since open beta). Anyone who quits this game over a PSR reset is really being a crybaby immature. It's a virtually meaningless number right now!

If you really want to oogle over your stats......go look at them on Jarl's list then. Of course, that might not paint the picture you want to see though....

[Ult9876]

Xiphias, on 26 May 2020 - 01:18 PM, said:

Over a large number of matches a good pilot will win more often than a bad pilot.

On a big numbers scale, across the game? No. The sum of wins and losses is zero. If a particular group of "good" pilots has a high win-loss-ratio, then - in an idealized fashion - that means the matchmaker screwed up and has either placed that pilot in a lower skill environment where he has no place to be or it has a bias towards shifting multiple such pilots to one side of the match.

Of course in the less-ideal real world you will end up with say 90% of players of a particular tier having a 0.9 WLR with the other 10% having a 1.9 WLR. Which is what Tier 1 looks like today pretty much. Now, if you separate those two groups as the "1.9" group seems to want?
Then that means that 10% of Tier 1 is playing each other, obviously at a 1.0 WLR because they're all "that good". And all is fine. Well, they would, if they could. Except we don't have the population for that 10% of Tier 1 group to ever find matches only among themselves.