494 replies to this topic

[VonBruinwald]

Paul Inouye, on 03 June 2020 - 12:09 PM, said:

[color=orange]Regarding Stomp Numbers: [/color]

But first, let's look at some numbers. We mentioned stomp stats that are matches that end with a score of 12-4 or worse for the losing side. While this metric isn't perfect, it does give us a good baseline for comparison purposes.

...

1123 Stomps out of 3755 matches in an average 24hr period resulting in a 29.91% stomp rate.

Post queue merge, our sample set gave us this:
935 Stomps out of 2751 matches in an averages 24hr period resulting in a 33.99% stomp rate.

This was the 5% increase we saw.

Thank you for explaining the numbers Mason. You gave us your criteria for a stomp and gave us the numbers that allowed you to arrive at that decision. Whilst the outcome isn't perfect it does explain where you're coming from and that helps players understand what you're doing much more than an arbitrary "5%". I dare say you read my other post regarding:

VonBruinwald, on 31 May 2020 - 09:53 AM, said:

The problems with this are the abysmal sample sizes, I would like to assume Paul used more and these were just illustrative; the complete lack of preceding date for what we had prior to the merge; and no sense of scale for what the true PSR system is based on (what are the PSR thresholds for tiers and maximum PSR value?).

I'm actually surprised you definition of a stomp aligns with mine. I was expecting you to use a harsher criteria for PR reasons.

Out of curiosity are you able to pull the data for games that finish between 12-4 and 12-8? I would expect a much larger increase, in games that finish within that range.


-----


Regarding the PSR reset:

Whilst I do echo the sentiment of not receiving an increase when performing well on a losing team, I understand why you have took the decision. To put it yourself.

Paul Inouye, on 03 June 2020 - 12:09 PM, said:

The new numbers make team work critical if players want to climb in tiers. As you can see, the win is the biggest component of moving up or down in PSR. To win, you have to be a team player.

It alleviates a lot of the farming mechanics players could abuse to move up:
Whilst it doesn't stop players using them, a player who plays to farm MS is now dependant on the rest of the team carrying him for it to translate to an increase. Unfortunately it doesn't do much for the losing team, they'll still be punished more than the guy who leached of their efforts; an unavoidable situation because of the way MS works.

Just be prepared for a lot of flak from "good" players who don't play as part of the team.

It does translate to PSR into more complicated W:L record, but for a team game, it's acceptable.

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Overall, good decisions, and thank you again for explaining where you're coming from.

[Marshal Jim Duncan]

The only thing that kept me playing over the few years was the knowledge that 'if I don't suck I can at least distance myself from those who do'.

With a PSR that is entirely team-win based, a good player will never be able to get out of the hole unless everyone on the other side sucks worse then they do. Some of us actually have a job that's not related to grinding out a PSR 'suck-hole'.

The only way you could get that high of a match score to drag yourself out of the 'suck-hole' is if the other side just stands there and lets you shoot them. Or cheat.

If there is reasonable amount of team-playing on either or both sides the average match scores seem to fall in the range where ppl will still lower their PSR even though they tried to play a gee gee.

Just because you got a match score of 149 doesn't mean you didn't work with your team.

Someone has to loose the ******* match, but that doesn't mean all the players on the loosing side suck.

[Aidan Crenshaw]

Marshal Jim Duncan, on 05 June 2020 - 02:46 AM, said:

Someone has to loose the ******* match, but that doesn't mean all the players on the loosing side suck.

Of course not. Given enough matches so you end up in a PSR environment that fits your actual skill, for every loss you will have a win and the PSR-change will zero-out.

[VonBruinwald]

Marshal Jim Duncan, on 05 June 2020 - 02:46 AM, said:

With a PSR that is entirely team-win based, a good player will never be able to get out of the hole unless everyone on the other side sucks worse then they do. Some of us actually have a job that's not related to grinding out a PSR 'suck-hole'.

Someone has to loose the ******* match, but that doesn't mean all the players on the loosing side suck.

I share this concern, if you're continuously placed on "bad" teams you're never going to increase in tiers and may even be dragged down out of the tier you belong; of course, the inverse could also occur. Realistically, we all have winning and losing streaks but with enough games under our belts those runs shouldn't have any real impact.

It's only the inital seeding matches where we're likely to see a a significant amount of deviation in tier placement and skill. After that comes the climb, or fall.

Try to remember, PSR is a match making feature, not a reward system, it's not about being good or bad, it's about being placed against equally competent players (unless you're into ePeens).

[Sniper09121986]

VonBruinwald, on 05 June 2020 - 03:06 AM, said:

Try to remember, PSR is a match making feature, not a reward system, it's not about being good or bad, it's about being placed against equally competent players (unless you're into ePeens).

Equally competent players AND premades that matchmaker does not account for in any way, shape or form. And guess what, they also have the biggest say in the match outcome. Until any of that changes, nothing changes, really. The system itself could work, but this particular monkey wrench can throw anything to the wind.

[Bistrorider]

Somehow new challenge...

But

New PSR values:
Player LOSES:
Match Score: 0-100 goes down in PSR by -5
Match Score: 101-250 goes down in PSR by -3
Match Score: 251-400 goes down in PSR by -1
Match Score: 401+ does not move.

MATCH SCORE 401 + SHOULD BE +1

MATCH SCORE 401 + SHOULD BE +1

MATCH SCORE 401 + SHOULD BE +1

MATCH SCORE 401 + SHOULD BE +1

MATCH SCORE 401 + SHOULD BE +1

MATCH SCORE 401 + SHOULD BE +1

OTHERWISE PLAYERS WHO PERFORM GOOD WILL ALWAYS BE PUNISHED. IT WILL BE DISHEARTENING AND PEOPLE WILL STOP PLAYING BECAUSE WHATEVER THEY PERFORMANCE AND SKILL WILL BE THEY WILL LAND IN A GARBAGE AFTER LOST MATCH.

ALSO THIS:

Player WINS:
Match Score: 0-100 does not move.

CONSIDER THIS TO BE -1. CONSIDER RESIGNING FROM OPTION THAT TIER DOESN'T MOVE. GO PLUS OR MINUS ONLY. IT WILL BE GOOD IN TERMS OF THOSE WHO GO AFK AND DONT GIVE A SH+T. OR THOSE WHO CLOWN AROUND ALL THE TIME.

Edited by Bistrorider, 05 June 2020 - 03:43 AM.

[spannerturner]

So, Paul has admitted that PSR does not actually mean "Player Skill Rating", but player "Win/Loss Rating". So, 3 months from now after everything settles out, the Tiers won't be made of people of like ability, just like win/loss ratios. Tier 1 will consist of high W/L players that score well consistently sure, but Tiers 2-4 will still be a complete mix of crap players who have been carried on more wins than loses and good players who carried but still lost. I can only see this as making matters worse. Plus, you haven't eliminated the chances of a crap player grinding into Tier 1, like me.

The concept of PSR as a tool to keep like skilled players matched against each other is apparently something you fail to grasp. The concept of zero sum is also something you fail to grasp. For what you have decided on does neither.

I was for the reset. I am Tier 1 by grind, not skill level. I know that. I also know that I am probably mid to low Tier 2 naturally (that's where I am at on my alt account and I have much better stats comparatively there, and more fun.)

I don't think this change is going to net the results that you think it will.
As we used to say in the Corps, "Good initiative, bad judgement."

[Brom96]

Exactly my concern. What, you folks never had 20 loses in a row, and you performed within or above your personal average in each of the game?

[VonBruinwald]

Sniper09121986, on 05 June 2020 - 03:30 AM, said:

Equally competent players AND premades that matchmaker does not account for in any way, shape or form. And guess what, they also have the biggest say in the match outcome. Until any of that changes, nothing changes, really. The system itself could work, but this particular monkey wrench can throw anything to the wind.

Premades will potentially be throwing a spanner thrown in their own works.

As a unit they're going to have an upward bias (teamwork OP). So they'll end up playing in higher tiers than their individual skill permits. Then, when they go solo they'll get wolf'd by competent solos (and units) who can outplay them.

Their best option would to be run an alt. for unit play.


The question will always be how will the matchmaker handles units:
My choice, make a group PSR by take the average of the top 2 players PSRs and applying a group multiplier (start with 1.2). You can always adjust the multiplier based on how OP teamwork is, more OP = higher multiplier.

e.g.
Group PSR = (1st PSR + 2nd PSR)/2 * 1.2 * number of players dropping

Edited by VonBruinwald, 05 June 2020 - 04:41 AM.

[letir]

Too much emphasis on W/L condtition.

Players with 400+ score should get some growth out of this, even if they lose.

Players with 100< score should go down a bit, even if they win.

[Negat1ve Nancy]

letir, on 05 June 2020 - 05:02 AM, said:

Too much emphasis on W/L condtition.

Players with 400+ score should get some growth out of this, even if they lose.

Players with 100< score should go down a bit, even if they win.

Seems a bit unfair and not a true reflection of Person Pilot Skill



Should get something imo



Like PSR hasn't got much to do with skill

Edited by Negat1ve Nancy, 05 June 2020 - 05:42 AM.

[Thorqemada]

There are many types of skill involved in being successful.
Sometimes it is the ability to win games by yourself, sometimes it is the ability to find a Group of Players that does carry one to a win - in the end PSR changes from being mostly an experience bar to an acurate maesurment how one is able to achive success with no discrimination about the how!

I do not see how this is a bad thing aside of giving Tier Trolling more substance...

Edited by Thorqemada, 05 June 2020 - 05:42 AM.

[Brom96]

I would say that the main issue is how to achieve that.

[Firefox54]

As I've read through these messages (and there are some good ones) I've been changing my thoughts from a simple change (where the PSR can decrease with a win and increase with a loss) to a bigger flaw with the current system ... my biggest concern is that the proposed system isn't zero sum. On the surface, the numbers look zero sum, but that's only if we get the appropriate distribution of match scores on the winning and losing team (mentioned by a few) ... in reality (as a some have shown, and I'll look at it when I play this weekend) every match will not be zero sum ... and there's no info on if, overall, the increases and decreases will balance over every match (probably not because match scores will skew to higher values because there's a fixed match score floor of 0).

So, to ensure this is actually zero sum ... the increase/decrease in PSR needs to: 1) either be determined each match with those with higher/lower match score (or whatever scoring) getting the greatest increase/decrease, or 2) an even simpler system to just rank the match scores (that already include something for W/L) and give the top 12 players an increase of +12 to +1 and the bottom 12 players a decrease of -1 to -12 (others have also mentioned this approach). The only potential downside is that there is no upper/lower bound on the total score ... although simple caps could help ... or some type of running average ... or using some type of Elo system that does the same with a little more detail (so it won't nicely fit into 8 categories).

The latter option will ensure zero sum, and increase the PSR of the players more often at the top of their match. Yes, this approach doesn't include the match score, but would more easily account for the rare 12-11 match where everyone does well and the 3-2 match shown in a previous because of capping ... you might actually get more matches where the objective is actually important (instead of getting in the way of a skirmish) because people won't be worrying about the magnitude of their match score ... they just need to do better than others.

As I write this ... changing the PSR based on the match score ranking is probably the simplest option that captures the general interest of the players. The goal is to better separate skill levels to try and improve balanced matches ... there aren't enough players to have, for example, just Tier 1 vs Tier 1, but right now there are individuals (like myself) that are in Tiers higher than they should. Also, rather than use the Tiers to balance, the system could actually use the PSR (or whatever we want to call this metric) to balance the teams.

While I think some Elo system would be better (I don't know how well it's worked in the Comp Play), whatever system is adopted should ensure zero-sum after every match to guarantee the overall system is zero-sum.

Edited by Firefox54, 05 June 2020 - 06:26 AM.

[Dionnsai]

How many pilots are angry because they know they cant make tier 1 under the new system?

Its not about [redacted], its about dividing pilots into teams with skill as a factor. Most of the people who are Tier 1 in the current system SHOULD NOT BE THERE. Tier 1 should be where the "toxic tryhards" reside so they can be divided between the teams more evenly.

Yes, most of the people reading this wont make tier 1 now. That is how it should be if you want the matchmaker to work.

Additionally, if you cant average 250 match score in tier 5 and are stuck there: you belong in tier 5.

[Ghost Paladin117]

Or should be demoted to tier 6

[Horseman]

Vellron2005, on 05 June 2020 - 01:41 AM, said:

I fail to see why then, if the above stated is true, do we need these changes? Nothing good will come out of it.

To shake off the fact that right now T1 accounts for over 60% of the playerbase.

[Rendiir]

Its being said a fair bit but ill throw my hat into the ring too. Doing well on the losing team still means you did well, all it takes is for one or two mechs to be out of place and not responsive to comms for a match to swing against your favour through no fault of your own.

Doing well but losing should still be an increase. Doing poorly and winning should at least not be an increase, ideally should still be a decrease:

My proposition:
Player LOSES:
Match Score: 0-100 goes down in PSR by -5
Match Score: 101-250 goes down in PSR by -3
Match Score: 251-400 does not move
Match Score: 401+ goes up in PSR by +2

Player WINS:
Match Score: 0-100 goes down in PSR by -2
Match Score: 101-250 does not move
Match Score: 251-400 goes up in PSR by +3
Match Score: 401+ goes up in PSR by +5

This would mean dieing without leaving an impact (100 score is pretty damn easy to get especially on a win) doesnt have you carried by your team while being responsible for all the kills your team has on a loss doesnt penalise you for your effort and contribution.

On a side note, id like to see high damage taken contribute a minor amount to match score. If youve taken 600+ damage in a game, even if you dont have amazing damage dealt still means you helped push and took damage that your team likely couldn't have shaken off. This also incentives but team play (group pushing, especially for assaults) as well as player skill (being able to efficiently spread the damage and still maintain a presence instead of just getting cored.)

Edit : Ive changed my position on this. If youre a player who reguarly goes 400 score or higher, even if you lose the majority of your games, youll climb. If youre reguarly going sub 200, youll fall. It works out game to game over time. It would be nice to have that pat-on-the-back of a green arrow on a hard fought loss but ultimately over time it plays out just fine. Basing with more bias to match score can incentivise slasher builds and other high score, low teamplay strats and ways to game higher score.
(I still want to see damage taken factored into match score though...)

Edited by Rendiir, 06 June 2020 - 09:51 AM.

[Negat1ve Nancy]

Pretty sure I played this one skillfull



5 kill and four of them solo



Highest damage from both sides, Equal highest kills from both sides, 558 match score, second highest from both sides

MM currently gives me a small PSR boost which reflects the performance.
The new MM...smh

Yes this is my alt

Edited by Negat1ve Nancy, 05 June 2020 - 06:49 AM.

[Tesunie]

PSR still linked heavily to W/L... means PSR will still be a problem.

Remove the W/L calculation from your numbers completely. Players who perform within an average range of match score should not move. Those who perform under the average range bracket should decrease. Those who perform above the average should increase.

This makes it Pilot related, not "how did the team do" related.