494 replies to this topic

[Sawk]

ohh ok thought it was displayed, ok its checked to show tier level now, i'll be bringing in some other mechs, and i do understand game, and i have some ok mechs, and know how build, i am even a better light pilot. then a heavy pilot
I just prefer a heavy, i used to be hunted alot, you know the GUY, no wanted to let live. so i need armor, and speed, but that has not been the case last 3 months, i was just trying to push my kill count up, its easier with lazer vomit, and heavy armor.
really need PGI to turn on the kickers, that would get many pilots unstuck, and break the even tie, i am sure you know what i am talking about.

Sawk

[Horseman]

Sawk, on 31 October 2020 - 03:59 PM, said:

and i do understand game, and i have some ok mechs, and know how build, i am even a better light pilot. then a heavy pilot

You'll probably want to narrow down your mech choices to your top 3-5 variants and builds while you're trying to climb. What "did it" for me was a pulseboat Warhammer 9D - fast and mobile enough to keep up, durable enough to survive long enough to deal damage, enough firepower to pop components

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really need PGI to turn on the kickers, that would get many pilots unstuck, and break the even tie, i am sure you know what i am talking about.

The kickers are already on. PGI might change the way they're scored but likely not by much.
Also, adding more kickers to the score formula wouldn't "unstick" anyone since with the current PSR algorithm, the PSR gain is based on how your MS relates to your team and enemy team and not pre-determined MS thresholds the way it used to be.

[crazytimes]

Sawk, on 31 October 2020 - 03:59 PM, said:

really need PGI to turn on the kickers, that would get many pilots unstuck, and break the even tie, i am sure you know what i am talking about

The whole point is to get people to the right place so they're playing with peers. Adjusting PSR scoring to make poor playstyles tier up faster so everyone ends up back at tier 1 again is not helping anyone.

It is still upwards biased, just not as much as before. I'm pinned hard against the top of tier 1 and I am not in the top 25% of players skill wise. If you're in 4 and still dropping, the problem is nothing except you and your mech building and play styles.

The psychological problem is twofold however. Below average ppeople rarely acknowledge they are below average. When confronted with incontrovertible evidence, the cognitive dissonance can be insurmountable. Secondly, people who are openly visible as below average are more likely to just give up- dropping player numbers and shrinking the MM pool even further.

[selfish shellfish]

crazytimes, on 31 October 2020 - 06:44 PM, said:

The psychological problem is twofold however. Below average ppeople rarely acknowledge they are below average. When confronted with incontrovertible evidence, the cognitive dissonance can be insurmountable. Secondly, people who are openly visible as below average are more likely to just give up- dropping player numbers and shrinking the MM pool even further.

People in general want a "reward" since that triggers the release of dopamine:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dopamine
(It does not matter if the reward is real or a perceived one)

You can try to explain that the current tier bar is not an experience bar or a "reward" but some people will never understand. They have it hardwired that a bar moving forwards is a "reward" and a bar going down is a "punishment". It's also how gambling machines and alcoholism works. Many games have a meaningless experience bar to keep the masses happy. It's the oldest trick in the book.

Another aspect might be the perception that playing with and against people who are more skilled will improve your gameplay and lead to a better playing experience. I think the idea here is that you "learn" from the masters. However the logic is flawed since nobody is actively "teaching" you anything in the game or holding your hand. Sure if your team mates are more skilled you might be carried to victory but you learned nothing in the process.

[Sawk]

WOW you guys, or girls or whatever are really dense, there are good pilots stuck in tier 4, some like me right at the 3/4 point.
you keep pointing the finger that its just ME or the folks stuck, your always looking down at us a blaming folks, and saying its you,.
OK the next part is passing up Crazytimes, your only 30 points in match score above me, only a little on the leader board, i have mechs, don't need training, and my kills are better, and my leadership with PUGS is better, i win more then you, and i am now pushing up on headshots, wild.
now from what i am looking at, where a am, tapping off a bottom, if i can string together 15 matchs all above 300, i may get to tier 3, i got that from one other pilot, but then he hit a bad night, and fell rabid over 5 matchs below tier 4, so i guess there must be a half way point, that does not sound like an upward movement.
i am thinking there must not be that many tier 2 guys if any are on teams, and the only tier 3 folks are the new guys coming in, so come find me crazytimes, you may find, best way to get a friend is to get in a fight, pick your mech i have all 4 classes,


Sawk

[Timber Ghost]

Sawk, on 01 November 2020 - 03:38 PM, said:

WOW you guys, or girls or whatever are really dense, there are good pilots stuck in tier 4, some like me right at the 3/4 point.
you keep pointing the finger that its just ME or the folks stuck, your always looking down at us a blaming folks, and saying its you,.
OK the next part is passing up Crazytimes, your only 30 points in match score above me, only a little on the leader board, i have mechs, don't need training, and my kills are better, and my leadership with PUGS is better, i win more then you, and i am now pushing up on headshots, wild.
now from what i am looking at, where a am, tapping off a bottom, if i can string together 15 matchs all above 300, i may get to tier 3, i got that from one other pilot, but then he hit a bad night, and fell rabid over 5 matchs below tier 4, so i guess there must be a half way point, that does not sound like an upward movement.
i am thinking there must not be that many tier 2 guys if any are on teams, and the only tier 3 folks are the new guys coming in, so come find me crazytimes, you may find, best way to get a friend is to get in a fight, pick your mech i have all 4 classes,


Sawk

I do not see where anyone is looking down on you because of your tier. I only see people trying to explain to you how the system works, and why it is better than it was before. Personally, I think the tier system is working perfect for someone like me. I am simply not tier 1 material, and I never will be. Frankly, I hate tier 1 matches, because I usually get mud-stomped, lol. But, I do think I am a tier 2, maybe a tier 3 pilot. If I have a good match, weather we win or lose, I will gain some PSR. If I have a bad match, I will lose some PSR. I am sitting about 25% in to tier 2. I will probly end up in tier 1 again before too long, especially if I keep dropping in 4 mans, and we keep doing well as a team and winning matches. I have no idea what my average match score is, and I simply do not care. I just know that as tier 3, my PSR climbs pretty quick. As a tier 2, it has slowed down a bunch, but still climbing.

I really wish people would stop seeing the tier system as a reward, as it is anything but. If you are in tier 4, and holding steady, then I would say that you have found a pretty good balance, and it will produce more fun games for you, rather than being tier 1 and getting stomped the majority of the time.

I am looking at your overall K:D ratio, and you overall W:L ratio, and I just do not understand your frustration. You are about where you should be. That is a good thing! Since you have been tier 4, your stats have gotten better. That, again, is a good thing!

Edited by Timber Ghost, 01 November 2020 - 05:54 PM.

[doctormanuse]

Sawk, on 01 November 2020 - 03:38 PM, said:

OK the next part is passing up Crazytimes, your only 30 points in match score above me, only a little on the leader board, i have mechs, don't need training, and my kills are better, and my leadership with PUGS is better, i win more then you, and i am now pushing up on headshots, wild.

Hi Sawk, I think the point you are missing is that comparing these statistics does'nt make any sense if there is a big tier difference. Performing at an average of 250 MS in tier 4 is not comparable with doing so in tier 1. Remember that the MS is measure of your performance against all other players of the match. In tier 1 there is not more MS to earn and the overall sum of all MS is not greater than in any other tier.

Look at my ratings. I consider myself as an avarage player that benefites from years of playing, but I am not great. I am in tier 1 and I always thought that this is too high... until the PSR reset and I was working my way up again. In tier 3 and 2 I performed extremly well, which was wonderful for my ego. As I entered tier 1, I hit a brick wall. Actually I was jumping between tier 1 & 2 for a couple weeks until I was able to adjust my playstyle to tier 1 and maintain myself there.

I am more a casual player, like to play nieche mechs, change mech every match. My positioning is bad, I am not aware of my surroundings sometimes. Doing this in tier 1 is a challenge. Out of 10 matches I totall f**k up at least 2 with MS below 100. Sometimes I wish to drop down to tier 2 again to be able to play more casual and my shortfalls are not punished that hard.

[selfish shellfish]

Timber Ghost, on 01 November 2020 - 05:50 PM, said:

I am sitting about 25% in to tier 2. I will probly end up in tier 1 again before too long, especially if I keep dropping in 4 mans, and we keep doing well as a team and winning matches.

It's easy to lower your Tier. Just play with the poor/sub optimal mechs and builds. This is what I do if I start to get too close to Tier2. Since MWO is so unbalanced this is fairly easy to achieve. To be fair most of my mechs are poorly build but for some reason I enjoy playing them more.

From a purely game design perspective showing a Tier bar that is tied to PSR produces some issues:
1. People who can not rise in Tier may get put off. (feeling of no reward)
2. People who try so hard to rise in Tier that they get tired of the game. Limiting themselves to a couple of powerful builds also gets boring.
3. People who artificially lower their Tier to get at easier opponents. Gaming the system.

A clever system would show a "meaningless" Tier/experience bar to the players and keep the real PSR hidden for matchmaking purposes. Everyone rises in Tier and gets to be Tier 1 at some point but the real matchmaking is based on the hidden PSR data.

[Horseman]

Sawk, on 01 November 2020 - 03:38 PM, said:

WOW you guys, or girls or whatever are really dense, there are good pilots stuck in tier 4, some like me right at the 3/4 point.
you keep pointing the finger that its just ME or the folks stuck, your always looking down at us a blaming folks, and saying its you,.

Then, as a good pilot, you should draw on your extensive understanding of the game's mechanics to game the system and get past that supposed "barrier" instead of going all "woe is me, there's an impassable barrier in front of me".
Plenty of pilots have passed that barrier, so it's clearly not impassable.

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OK the next part is passing up Crazytimes, your only 30 points in match score above me, only a little on the leader board,

He's doing that while playing against T1-T3 opponents and without being able to farm T4s and T5s for easy score.
You're "stuck" while playing against T2-T5 opponents, with plenty of opportunities to farm.

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i have mechs, don't need training, and my kills are better, and my leadership with PUGS is better, i win more then you,

Okay, now you're just going on an ego trip rant.
Taking three months from season 45 to 48 - and skipping seasons 49-51 due to the hero events predictably bringing out the moron in everyone - this is what you get: https://leaderboard....times&f=45&l=48
He wins just as much at you. Against tougher opponents.
He survives the match more often. Surviving longer, he has more opportunities to score.
He kills more opponents than you. Making a bigger impact on the enemy team's ability to fight.

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now from what i am looking at, where a am, tapping off a bottom, if i can string together 15 matchs all above 300, i may get to tier 3, i got that from one other pilot, but then he hit a bad night, and fell rabid over 5 matchs below tier 4, so i guess there must be a half way point, that does not sound like an upward movement.

Once you hit T3 you start getting T1s in your matches. He got there and wasn't prepared for the tougher opposition. That happens.

Timber Ghost, on 01 November 2020 - 05:50 PM, said:

I do not see where anyone is looking down on you because of your tier.

Indeed. However, because of his whining and inability to look past his own ego? Most definitely so.

Edited by Horseman, 02 November 2020 - 11:47 AM.

[Sawk]

wow thats better answers, instead of just talking down to someone. like some like to, i have been told your to low of a TIER and will always-- not be a good pilot---, i'll keep the unit name to my self, that when i made first push up, to almost tier 1, then a got in a unit, and starting dropping AGAIN, then teamspeak with others, in tier 2, i really need to stop helping folks.
Anyway you brought up playing with tougher pilots, i think about how many in my drop will make below 100 match score, and the whole drop lasted for 3 minutes, there is no farming for me, and now there is no 400 damage, to save you, and you string 4 together and its a huge drop.
as time goes, folks will give up, there only saving -- will be to get in a unit, and grow, or there in the top 10% that just get this game fast, and zoom, there needs to be some thing else they can fall on to move up, this system does not allow guys to have a fallback, its not winning, light pilot can offer a team many things, why would any ever play one again and lose your TIER level, in a tier 5 slugfest, or overrun 3 minute game.
as for me i will keep pushing the match score up, had a good start to the month, 7 drops average of 309 match score, i am moving off just 1 mech, and now play 3, but i still think the system is broken, if some wants to move up in tier level, its a real thin window, if your not the top 10%. solo-- no voice, no unit, ect ect ect.

Sawk

[Horseman]

Sawk, on 02 November 2020 - 05:46 PM, said:

i have been told your to low of a TIER and will always-- not be a good pilot---

Now, that kind of talk is a load of bullcrap. I'm firmly of the opinion that there are no inherently bad players, just players who refuse to adapt to how the game works rather than how they wish it was.

Not saying that getting there is going to be easy. You may need to put your build and gameplay choices under a magnifying glass and make some difficult choices, including putting aside some "fun" builds if they don't carry their weight (been there).

Everyone has their ceiling, but if you are willing to push yourself further you will improve . How fast is a separate matter.

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i'll keep the unit name to my self, that when i made first push up, to almost tier 1, then a got in a unit, and starting dropping AGAIN, then teamspeak with others, in tier 2,

A lot depends on the group drop culture. If the team selects random mechs then the drop is kinda screwed from the get-go. If it selects complementary speeds and ranges, the increased cohesion of movement and fire will benefit all of you.

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i really need to stop helping folks.

When you boil down the gameplay to bare bones, mechs are assets and the goal is to eliminate the enemy's assets while retaining more of your own.
Don't go trying to save mechs that will cost your team more losses than they're worth, but don't go abandoning mechs you can save without much cost.

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Anyway you brought up playing with tougher pilots, i think about how many in my drop will make below 100 match score, and the whole drop lasted for 3 minutes, there is no farming for me, and now there is no 400 damage, to save you, and you string 4 together and its a huge drop.

Higher tier pilots also tend to spread / shield damage better, true. Again, there are ways to farm damage or score despite that - LRMs and MRMs for weapons that vomit craploads of damage (T4s and T5s don't use cover that much) and AMS to farm score off enemy missiles but the latter is conditional on the weapons the enemy is bringing so much less reliable.

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as for me i will keep pushing the match score up, had a good start to the month, 7 drops average of 309 match score, i am moving off just 1 mech, and now play 3,

Sounds like you're working it out. Qapla!

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but i still think the system is broken,

To some extent yes. But like any system it can be gamed.

Edited by Horseman, 03 November 2020 - 10:37 AM.

[Sawk]

wow i have heard it again.
someone returned, and found out, just having fun, there tier 4, in a matter of 3 days, and then played for 1 more week, and now is done with the game.
ok so only the elite pilots can rule, you need more then 1 path up, not just match score, and that is mostly damage, if you want this game to go on.
how do you say talent, it comes in many forms, to many folks were blinders, sometimes you just need, reflect on the fact, that you need help folks, not just talk down, and rule folks.

SAWK---- SSG US army platoon sargent retired

[Horseman]

Sawk, on 04 November 2020 - 07:02 PM, said:

someone returned, and found out, just having fun, there tier 4, in a matter of 3 days, and then played for 1 more week, and now is done with the game.

There's a significant number of "weekend mechwarriors" like that, yes.

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ok so only the elite pilots can rule, you need more then 1 path up, not just match score,

The big cause of player churn isn't not seeing the bar rise, it's getting matched into games where the player feels powerless to affect the outcome.
Take a 99% player. Take a 38% player. They're not equal, but the matchmaker used to treat them as they were. That led to extremely lopsided matches. Making it easier to increase in tier would lead to that sort of situation more often as we have seen before the PSR reset and algorithm change.
So why, exactly, would you want to throw them into the grinder like this? To pad their egos so that they don't burn out while causing them to burn out faster due to repeated losses?

[RRAMIREZ]

Let's just introduce *veteran level* as a "prestige" indicator of how many game you play or XP gain.
Associate titles and achievement to veteran level
Put it aside from PSR/tier, and everybody is happy ^^

[crazytimes]

Sawk, on 04 November 2020 - 07:02 PM, said:

wow i have heard it again.
someone returned, and found out, just having fun, there tier 4, in a matter of 3 days, and then played for 1 more week, and now is done with the game.
ok so only the elite pilots can rule, you need more then 1 path up, not just match score, and that is mostly damage, if you want this game to go on.

Dude, PSR is not "up" for progress for new players. The lower the PSR, the worse the opponents, the easier it is to farm match score and hence XP and credits, the faster you can grind skills and new mechs.

Tier 1 only matches tend to have low damage numbers because people are shooting accurately rather than sandpapering, so lower income. Except for people who don't belong in those matches, who get almost 0 damage and no XP or credits.

PSR is not a end goal. It's a matchmaking tool. New players should worry about credits and XP, not PSR.

Edited by crazytimes, 06 November 2020 - 12:23 AM.

[Alreech]

crazytimes, on 06 November 2020 - 12:22 AM, said:

PSR is not a end goal. It's a matchmaking tool. New players should worry about credits and XP, not PSR.

Of course it is an end goal in quickplay.
It's more or less a high score list, and being Tier 1 indicates what you are an elite player.
What else could be goals in MWO?

• Causual playing with a group of friends?
  
• Ranking up in a faction?
  
• Ranking up in a duelling game mode?
  
• Doing MMO style battles against player groups from other faction?

[Horseman]

Alreech, on 06 November 2020 - 08:17 AM, said:

Of course it is an end goal in quickplay.
It's more or less a high score list, and being Tier 1 indicates what you are an elite player.
What else could be goals in MWO?

• Causual playing with a group of friends?
  
• Ranking up in a faction?
  
• Ranking up in a duelling game mode?
  
• Doing MMO style battles against player groups from other faction?

• Crushing the enemy
  
• Seeing them driven before you
  
• Hearing the lamentations of their mothers

[Akillius]

Alreech, on 06 November 2020 - 08:17 AM, said:

Of course it is an end goal in quickplay.
It's more or less a high score list, and being Tier 1 indicates what you are an elite player.
What else could be goals in MWO?

• Causual playing with a group of friends?
  
• Ranking up in a faction?
  
• Ranking up in a duelling game mode?
  
• Doing MMO style battles against player groups from other faction?

Tier 1 was the end goal before PSR changes because everyone ended up in tier 1, even me!!!
What the community told PGI was change PSR & remove the tiers from public view, but a few tweeted Russ not to...

On the other hand it resulted a post by Horseman that actually got me to click like.

Oh Horseman... there comes a time thief, when the jewels cease to sparkle, when the gold loses its luster, when the throne room becomes a prison.

Edited by Akillius, 06 November 2020 - 06:11 PM.

[Sawk]

WOW guys thats some real darth vader stuff, i kinda feel that way right now, i went from forlough to fired this week,. but anyway you guys like the system, the algo running it, then there no reason, any should play this game, the learning curve, has an end point, face the elite players if you can get there.
i am trying to help those guys that did not have a unit, or invited by a friend, just thought that look fun, some of you did well out of the box, about 5%, some in a unit, thats 10% more, and then theres the wild 10%, that were good OLD SYSTEM, that come back, and that leaves what 75%
so as i see it, this game will FAIL, and PGI will shut it down, because the top 25%, really like winning, and its really about the game making money, like a say many smart folks do wear blinders, or is that common sense is not really COMMOM.
there needs to be 2 ways up in TEIR level, not just the 1 that is working right now.

SAWK come challenge me : )

[Revener]

"Player WINS:
Match Score: 0-100 does not move."

But I just won with a score of 88 and it said it went down, got the red arrow instead of a = . With one of my light mech, was basically impossible to do more in that match since I got instantly targeted no matter where I tried to get damage in from.

Also would be nice if it was not easiest to raise the PSR in an assault, because basically only damage seems to do much to get the Match score up, if I play a light mech and do not manage to dpo enough damage it does not seem to matter how much I spotted or harassed and generally annoyed the opposing team, and the PSR will go down on a loss.