490 replies to this topic

[Thebackson]

I almost think a better way to calculate PSR on the matches would be to take the 24 players of the match, then rank them by their match score and give the following psr modification

1-3 get +5
4-6 get +3
7-10 get +1
11-14 get 0
15-18 get -1
19-21 get -3
22-24 get -5

This is also a net 0 PSR on the scores but rewards performance independent of whether you win or lose but also naturally favors the winning team since the winners are typically going to have a higher match score. At the same time it rewards a great player on a losing teaming and lowers the really bad players on a winning team.

The number of nights where I have had 8-12 loses in a row while at the same time pulling top 1-3 damage and match scores over 300 while still losing is staggering, under the proposed system I would do nothing but lose psr in those 8-12 matches.

Edited by Thebackson, 04 June 2020 - 02:35 PM.

[Rhapture]

You brought up the stomp rates, but I'd like to know how many matches ended in 12-10 or 12-11 matches.
Did those really good matches increase in frequency? Because that might show the new grouping is helping.
Also , in those good close matches, where there are lots of good 400+ scores on each side, why would you punish people when it comes down to the the last couple mechs and it could almost go either way.
You should be rewarding good pilots and not just wins in PSR as many others have said.

[VixNix]

New PSR values:
Player LOSES:
Match Score: 0-100 goes down in PSR by -5
Match Score: 101-250 goes down in PSR by -3
Match Score: 251-400 goes down in PSR by -1
Match Score: 401+ does not move.

Player WINS:[/color]
Match Score: 0-100 does not move.
Match Score: 101-250 goes up in PSR by +1
Match Score: 251-400 goes up in PSR by +3
Match Score: 401+ goes up in PSR by +5


CRAP

turn the wrong corner and you are dead - low match score
get left behind by nascar and you are dead - low match score

no control of the team you get put on

no one has any motivation to do anything except go to the same place on the map and then rotate...

no balance on the teams

no balancing of equipment on the teams

constantly get stuck on long range maps in short range mechs

etc etc

Edited by VixNix, 04 June 2020 - 03:00 PM.

[Alan Hicks]

9th of June? Just do the reset, do it, DO IT NAO !!!

...ok, no problem, 5 more days of the usual mess...

It's not like there's some haste to keep playing...

[Andrzej Lechrenski]

VixNix, on 04 June 2020 - 02:56 PM, said:

[color=#00FFFF]New PSR values:[/color]
[color=#00FFFF]Player LOSES:[/color]
[color=#00FFFF]Match Score: 0-100 goes down in PSR by -5[/color]
[color=#00FFFF]Match Score: 101-250 goes down in PSR by -3[/color]
[color=#00FFFF]Match Score: 251-400 goes down in PSR by -1[/color]
[color=#00FFFF]Match Score: 401+ does not move.[/color]

[color=#00FFFF]Player WINS:[/color]
[color=#00FFFF]Match Score: 0-100 does not move.[/color]
[color=#00FFFF]Match Score: 101-250 goes up in PSR by +1[/color]
[color=#00FFFF]Match Score: 251-400 goes up in PSR by +3[/color]
[color=#00FFFF]Match Score: 401+ goes up in PSR by +5[/color]


CRAP

turn the wrong corner and you are dead - low match score
get left behind by nascar and you are dead - low match score

no control of the team you get put on

no one has any motivation to do anything except go to the same place on the map and then rotate...

no balance on the teams

no balancing of equipment on the teams

constantly get stuck on long range maps in short range mechs

etc etc

People who do not understand, or refuse to execute, the things that make a team win will drop in tier.
People who work together, even to the point of sacrificing their precious K/D, will rise in tier.

This is the balance. People will rise or fall to whatever level they are willing to cooperate.

But, yes, the first week of this will probably be as miserable as you describe until the wheat is separated from the chaff.

[Drunk Canuck]

Nearly Dead, on 04 June 2020 - 11:38 AM, said:

Teamwork = win

Who is guaranteed to be working as a team? Premades and units.

Win = PSR +

With all of the suggestions made here in the forum, this is what they do? It is like there is some kind of overriding game ideology here that PGI can't let go of, like they are living in some kind of other reality.

You do realize that a ton more players play solo than in groups these days, right? Like, I haven't played in a unit group drop in close to 5 years. The player base has tanked significantly.

[Tarl Cabot]

Paul Inouye, on 03 June 2020 - 12:09 PM, said:

[color="#ffa500"]snip [/color]

To change this, we will be implementing the following:

Current PSR values:

Player LOSES:
Match Score: 0-100 goes down in PSR by -2
Match Score: 101-250 goes down in PSR by -1
Match Score: 251-400 does not move.
Match Score: 401+ goes up in PSR by +1

Player WINS:
Match Score: 0-100 does not move.
Match Score: 101-250 goes up in PSR by +1
Match Score: 251-400 goes up in PSR by +3
Match Score: 401+ goes up in PSR by +5

All I can say about the Current PSR Loss Values, omfg. The issue was not the 400+ moving up, it is the others BARELY moving down..... just wow...

Quote

New PSR values:

Player LOSES:
Match Score: 0-100 goes down in PSR by -5
Match Score: 101-250 goes down in PSR by -3
Match Score: 251-400 goes down in PSR by -1
Match Score: 401+ does not move.

Player WINS:
Match Score: 0-100 does not move.
Match Score: 101-250 goes up in PSR by +1
Match Score: 251-400 goes up in PSR by +3
Match Score: 401+ goes up in PSR by +5

With these new numbers in place, players performing well and winning will be able to climb out of mid tiers to higher tiers and players losing and not performing well will be dropping lower as they should.

snip

Okay, definitely much better. At least it was not JUST the 401+ changed, nor was that particular threshold the issue.

I would say to change the thresholds, esp the 100 to a higher number, but reviewing some of the players who are currently Tier 1 or Tier 2 with avg 171-200 MS and W/L ratio of 0.82ish, at least on paper this should remedy the experience bar.

Of course, PGI could have kept the "experience" bar, still modified the PSR thresholds but had the MM use avg MS over last 300-500 drops, but this was likely the easiest route to go where PGI was winning to make a change.

With said, consider making 1/weight class per group/max 3 players per group instead of min/max weight limit. Remember, this is no longer the Solo queue, but more importantly this is no longer a purely Group queue either.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 04 June 2020 - 03:08 PM.

[HimseIf]

Back to tier 5 hell for me then
Doesn't matter how much of a deciding factor you are for the victory, with teamwork, and being a sacrificial target or whatever, if you don't make the magic numbers happen, you're doomed to play with people that run around like headless chickens...

OldSchoolCav, on 04 June 2020 - 02:08 PM, said:

Not sure whose English is to blame here - it might be mine. I don't have a DC problem. I DC maybe once every 6 months or so. I hate being in matches with players who DC. Would it be possible to penalize them? Maybe automatic -10 PSR for DC? Is that too harsh?

I have connection issues, they're not intentional. Punishing people that do have connection problems isn't going to make you popular with anyone that lives outside of a perfect world.

[Poor-Life-Choices]

I understand your intent, but you are over valuing a win. You will really make groups stompier because you will force people to group up and stomp so they can raise their PSR. This will just frustrate the average player. I'm a 60% player. I've been in T1 for over a year competing with Ash and his buddies. I'm not as good as they are, but I do alright. If you force me back to playing with T4 and T5 players, then I'll be done with this game. PSR should be 80% match score, not 200% win. Don't forget that match score is impacted by winning, and whether you survive. You lose 4 or 5 points for losing, but because your team sucked you also lose points because your average score dropped down a teir, so now you've had a bad game, gotten a low match score and you are punished for joining the solo que. not good guys, not good.

[Drunk Canuck]

OneTeamPlayer, on 04 June 2020 - 12:20 PM, said:

People are still here suggesting that the top performers on the losing team go up in rank.

Here's the deal folks, PGI has said they're going to implement this system and these responses are essentially say "Yeah, but what if you tried using the old system, though?"

That's not how this is going to go down.

Here's a thought:

What if players:

1. Get off private discords and communicate with their team
2. Use the whole 9.99 it costs to get a functional mic OR:
3. Use the built in coordination tools that don't require a mike.
4. Stop using the mic to complain about a loss while having been silent all round, start using the mic to coordinate from the start
5. Accept that not all teams will want to coordinate but after a short time, people who won't work together will be pushed down while people who do will be pushed upwards.

This game has amazing potential and one of its limiting factors has always been that people talk about success in terms of individual performance instead of group success.

Well, PSR says that age is over so unless you're in one of the top tier groups that can literally drag a team to victory players are going to have to re-examine this "every mech is an island" concept that has been so ingrained.

Now it's "We all rise or we all Fall"- and we're going to have to drop accordingly.

Going to be a massive shift for most folk, but i can almost guarantee that the sea of "but what if you tried not making this based solely on team performance and allowed the losing team to individually win" are about to be real disappointed.

Telling players to "get off their private Discords" is bit hypocritical considering the majority of players don't even communicate over VOIP in game. Those of us who do are heard fairly consistently. But considering most of the players don't want to listen to the people either giving directions or calling targets, why should they bother communicating at all? Team play is a two way street. Wins and losses are determined by a combination of combat effectiveness as well as players willingness to listen to those who actually know what they are talking about, drop commanding. Considering you have selfish lurm assault pilots who think they can hide in the back while they lob missiles into the terrain and players who YOLO off into enemy teams within the first two minutes of the match because they have less situational awareness than a chipmunk, not helping their teams while players who actually care about winning try to heard a bunch of blind mice and sheep. Telling other players to help their teams win when most players aren't reciprocating that same attitude, no wonder so many matches are garbage.

[Dakkonn]

PrometheusTNO, on 04 June 2020 - 12:19 PM, said:

I don't think there's a nice way for me to put this...

PSR = Pilot Skill Rating

It didn't take skill to walk over to their base. You won that hypothetical match because other people on your team had the skills to fight well enough that you could stand in the square for a long time. THEY won that match for you. The enemy team just couldn't walk back fast enough when the fighting was over. And who knows... Maybe if you had been shooting some enemies in the back, you could have won AND scored points.

Its fine no offense taken, I know PSR means Pilot Skill Rating.

My example was when we started we realized we were out tonned by a lot. (I think we had 2 assaults and the enemy had 5+ and were mostly mediums) If I had actively joined the fight I would have died too and we as a team would have lost the match. So the call was made after it was 0-5 (which happened very fast after the first engagement) that I should avoid fighting and try for a back cap win.

Now If I had not done that no one on the team would have gotten any points but since I followed the shot caller (teamwork) we won but I got almost no points due to all I did was cap really.

So the example might not scream "skill" but winning due to out playing your enemies should could for more than raw damage dealing. Team made sure to kill or leg anything fast enough to get back, again we were not focused on damage but it was a solid win that would not be reflected in PSR.

Also would like to add that the value of a good scout placing sweet UAV's/TAG/NARC can not be understated. No damage be easily game changing.

Edited by Dakkonn, 04 June 2020 - 03:36 PM.

[TheFourthAlly]

A rough 1/3 of matches end in a stomp? Is that supposed to be a good thing?

Let's hope when the dust settles after the reset of player tiers, we'll get a bit better outcomes over time.

Imo the new setting seems to make sense.

If you're consistenly losing matches, and doing badly, you might not be in the right mix of players and need to drop down a bit over time.

if you're consistently are winning matches and doing well, you might not be in the right mix of players and should go up a bit over time.

You'd expect a luck factor, whether a bad or a good streak, evens out over time and the consistent factor remaining is the team member looking at you in the mirror.

[Leidulfr]

PGI, you guys don't really think things through, do you? Even with all of the advice we pump out...

Your proposed "player S K I L L rating" system is again highly flawed, nonsensical, and it will again result in poor match making once players have played enough games for the system to start taking effect.

It's supposed to be a gauge of individual players' capabilities to get. stuff. done. It is not a "player who happened to be on the winning team rating." How difficult is it for you to wrap your head around that?

If I convince a friend to try the game and we drop together with one or two other decent players, they're most likely going to do squat, but they'll keep going up in the ranks because they're being carried. They might have fun in the group drops, just resorting to following us around to get the hang of things, but depending on how long that goes on, their rating will be inflated and a misrepresentation of their actual skill level.

If that new player who has been carried around then decides to play some games solo, most likely, they'll be crushed as they try to figure it out. Getting legitimately crushed over and over, with no real understanding of why isn't fun. It doesn't make you want to go back to the game, usually. And, even if they keep at it and do well on their own, but still "lose", their individual skill is not being taken into account properly.

Something similar to this happened to me when Halo 5 first came out. They had a similar system. You play ten games and get ranked for the season. I happened to end up on winning teams for the majority of my ten games and got placed in Diamond league, despite my actual contributions. After that, once I was playing with all Diamond league players, I just got slaughtered over and over and over. There's a point where no matter how much you bash your head against a wall, you're not optimally going to be able to improve your skill, and it's discouraging. Their system was even moreso flawed to the point where you couldn't rank down until the season ended. I'm sure they changed that, hopefully, but IDK, because I quit and never went back. It was absolutely no fun at all. (I also loathed my Xboner and eventually sold it).

And, it's not about being "rewarded" with rank ups. IDK what's up with some of you saying players should be "rewarded" for their efforts, that's not PSR. It's simply just supposed to be a representation of your individual skill, which also shouldn't be so heavily tied to "Match Score." Does it take "skill" for your AMS to automatically shoot down incoming missiles or for your suicide rushed UAV to automatically show enemy location? Does it take "skill" to hold down the mouse from the back to farm red squares? Why isn't there a fire & hit/miss ratio being tracked? Damaged taken before death (depending on your current mech's total armor) and damage done... there's your actual "skill". Calling for the team and doing it well, and if your team is the better team already results in "rewards" for winning... CBills & XP... and your "skill" rating will also go up due to the win, so don't come at me with the "well, what about these other 'skills' like spotting, assists, tagging, AMS usage, etc." NO. Actual, individual/personal/player "skill" is so easy to track and represent properly. Just do the work, or the game will continue to lose players.

Edited by Leidulfr, 04 June 2020 - 03:46 PM.

[VixNix]

Andrzej Lechrenski, on 04 June 2020 - 03:02 PM, said:

People who do not understand, or refuse to execute, the things that make a team win will drop in tier.
People who work together, even to the point of sacrificing their precious K/D, will rise in tier.

This is the balance. People will rise or fall to whatever level they are willing to cooperate.

But, yes, the first week of this will probably be as miserable as you describe until the wheat is separated from the chaff.

has not happened in the last 9 years...

[LaCroix05]

Paul Inouye, on 03 June 2020 - 12:09 PM, said:

To change this, we will be implementing the following:

Current PSR values:

Player LOSES:
Match Score: 0-100 goes down in PSR by -2
Match Score: 101-250 goes down in PSR by -1
Match Score: 251-400 does not move.
Match Score: 401+ goes up in PSR by +1

Player WINS:
Match Score: 0-100 does not move.
Match Score: 101-250 goes up in PSR by +1
Match Score: 251-400 goes up in PSR by +3
Match Score: 401+ goes up in PSR by +5

New PSR values:
Player LOSES:
Match Score: 0-100 goes down in PSR by -5
Match Score: 101-250 goes down in PSR by -3
Match Score: 251-400 goes down in PSR by -1
Match Score: 401+ does not move.

Player WINS:
Match Score: 0-100 does not move.
Match Score: 101-250 goes up in PSR by +1
Match Score: 251-400 goes up in PSR by +3
Match Score: 401+ goes up in PSR by +5

With these new numbers in place, players performing well and winning will be able to climb out of mid tiers to higher tiers and players losing and not performing well will be dropping lower as they should.

The new numbers make team work critical if players want to climb in tiers. As you can see, the win is the biggest component of moving up or down in PSR. To win, you have to be a team player.

This is stupid.

Right now i can only see PGI as the real example of developer who only read statistic without playing the game.

Maybe PGI want to copy this model from MOBA ranked game. Where if you lose, you will lose your MMR/Rank even if you are carrying your teammate.

But that is if you are on the same RANK.

Like in ranked MOBA game, it's expected you all at the same level at ranked game. Tier 1 will only play with Tier 1. Tier 4 will only play tier 4. So if you lose to other team with the same RANK/MMR/TIER it's a fact that you are worse than them and you should lose RANK/MMR/TIER.

While in MWO, we don't have ranked game. Only a quick game where every random tier and random mech jungled up and throw to battle.

So it's stupid for just counting WIN and LOSE to gain PSR in this game. The variable is too many because those random mech and random tier that you throw together.

Edited by LaCroix05, 04 June 2020 - 03:41 PM.

[TheCaptainJZ]

I have to agree with the comments on the first page. The zero-sum should be based on individual performance relative to all 24 players. Those with the highest match score move up in PSR. Those with lowest match score move down. If you want winning to affect it, add more PSR for a win.

[mrvain]

Firefox54, on 04 June 2020 - 10:20 AM, said:

I agree with the above post that part of the PSR reset was missed. There's too much weight to W-L in this format. At a minimum, some one that loses but gets a 400 match score or better should go up ... someone with a win but under 100 match score should go down.

Putting this much emphasis on team work might have been fine with a bigger player base ... but right now, it's luck to drop with 12 individuals that want to play as a team ... or luck to not drop with/against a 3/4-man team that just dominates

Bottom line (IMO) ... too much weight to W-L.

This is a start, and hopefully PGI will review this in a month or so ... or revise the PSR based on the comments being posted.

I am generally happy with what is going on but I do tend to agree that there is too much focus on team work given the random nature of teams with the current population and the tendency for groups to do their own thing. There is a great deal of luck here and you could be playing your best team game and still have little impact if the other 11 aren't interested. Similarly, even if my team stomps the enemy, if I am a potato (and I often am ) I should go down

[TheCaptainJZ]

Maybe like +100 PSR if you won.
Now 24 players with different PSRS:
+5 Top 2 PSR
+3 Next 3 PSR
+1 Next 5 PSR
0 Middle 4 PSR
-1 Next 5 PSR
-3 3 Next to bottom PSR
-5 Bottom 2 PSR

The reality is that there is no finite amount of match score that can be won in any given game, so you need to compare players against the whole.

Edited by TheCaptainJZ, 04 June 2020 - 03:52 PM.

[TEOLAYKI]

I'm ok with the idea of a PSR reset, but the proposed why is crap.

As many others mentioned when I carry the team in my Light Mech and have a match score of 500+ but we loose I should be rewarded for that. When I'm in my Assault Mech, drop on the outside and the NASCAR starts right away and I get jumped by lights and end the match without firing a shot. That's not only F'ed up but then I drop in PSR score too. That's really F'ed up.

A much better system would be:

Match Score\ PSR

0 - 100= -3
101 - 200 = -1
201 - 300 = 0
301 - 400 = +1
401+ = +3
Team Win +1

Also increase the Match Score points awarded for doing things that help out the team or that are Mech specific, like scouthing, NARCing a mech, Hit and Run, Lance in formation... ETC. Give more money and Match Score for a Light\Medium Mech protecting an Assault Mech... etc. Doing that would give people more incentive to do more than just shoot things.

That's where someone would get their incentive to cooperate with the team.

Part of the reason that NASCAR is so big now is that there is no down side for the individual pilot of a fast mech and while you can't really penalize someone for not protecting another Mech you sure can make them more eager to do it.

[Andrzej Lechrenski]

Lockheed_, on 04 June 2020 - 03:51 PM, said:

So if I work my *** off in a losing match the best thing that can happen is that I do not drop in SR? This is exactly what I did not want to happen. Your system does nothing to reduce stomps, you clearly stated that due to the low player count TIer3 will still be grouped with Tier1, so every stomp that I do my best and fail do make 401+ I get penalized and the best case scenario is that I maintain my PSR. This is absolutely ridiculous. This is also the system that made me quit Overwatch competitive because it takes all the fun out of the game.
If this goes live I will be gone.

In regard to Tiers 3 through 1 being matched together, I think you are missing the big positive of this change: the ultra-potatoes will forever be in tiers 4 and 5. These are the ones that make the matches the most frustrating when they are on your team because they have never learned how to play the game, but were still pushed up to Tier 1 due to "experience". To get to Tier 1 under this new system, you have to show that you at least know how to consistently win.

Moreover, under the new system, potatoes will get to be against potatoes in the low tiers, thus preventing them from rage-quitting due to the skill-based stomps. Likewise high level players won't have to deal with people who don't understand how to play the game and yet are still inexplicably matched with them. Everyone wins. Even tier 3 gets a 50:50 shot (although, given time and the assumption of no more PSR creep, those guys probably will be both giving and receiving the most stomps which could end up being a problem).

Just getting the ultra-tatoes out of Tier 1 is going to make a huge difference.