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#241 Kurb

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Posted 07 July 2020 - 01:38 AM

I'm afraid I have to jump onto the "old system was better" bandwagon. I do realise that the new system has not run long enough to be able to tell how good it is in practice in terms of pitting people of equivalent offensive, defensive and positioning skills against each other. However, I feel that the new one has a negative effect on in-game player attitude and behaviour.

My reasoning is the following:
* Players are so few nowadays, that I don't expect the accuracy of a tiering system to have a radical effect on team balance, once the system has done its job and the tiers have been formed
* What the old system rewarded players for was primarily winning, as well as individual performance to a lesser extent. This incentivised people to work as a team, since teammates performing exceptionally did not negatively affect the reward a player received
* What the new system rewards players for is being better than everyone else in the team/game, as well as winning, but to a lesser extent. At least this is the feeling that you get when you play. This means that the most efficient way to advance in tier is to maximise your match score while minimising that of everyone else. In turn, this results in mid-tier games being matchscore grinding, where dealing damage and using AMS, while ignoring objectives, is the most efficient way to advance for people hoping that getting to a higher tier will result in access to better quality games. I honestly don't expect the higher tier games to be any different, since matchscore grinding and matchscore delta is going to be required to hang onto what can be perceived as a flotation ring that keeps a player out of the chaos of the mid-tier games

My wishful-thinking idea would be:
* Bring the old system back
* Reset people to the tiers they had pre-reset
* Add a way for people feeling they are out-classed in their tier to drop themselves to whatever tier they feel comfortable in

Edited by Kurb, 07 July 2020 - 03:05 AM.


#242 Gagis

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Posted 07 July 2020 - 02:22 AM

Quote

* Players are so few nowadays, that I don't expect the accuracy of a tiering system to have a radical effect on team balance, once the system has done its job and the tiers have been formed

False. Even if the game was played by just 24 players total, an accurate rating of those players would help the matchmaker divide those 24 into approximately even teams of 12. Previously everyone who played a lot was in Tier 1 and the system could not distinquish between them, and could and often would put all the high performing players in one team and all the low-performing players in the other one, resulting in the kind of unsatisfying matches that made both strong and weak players give up on MWO. This was a disastrous flaw.

Its not too much of a problem if players of multiple skill levels are in the same match, as long as they can be evenly distributed between two teams.

Quote

* What the old system rewarded players for was primarily winning, as well as individual performance to a lesser extent. This incentivised people to work as a team, since teammates performing exceptionally did not negatively affect the reward a player received

Also false. Match Score has not changed between old and new system. Old system rewarded everything except nonparticipation. New system has a bit more emphasis on winning than the old one. I'd prefer much more emphasis on winning, but this makes people sad when they see their rating go down on a loss even when they tried really hard, and making people sad is probably big enough of a problem we need to relax the quality of matchmaking to make them less sad.

Quote

* What the new system rewards players for is being better than everyone else in the team/game, as well as winning, but to a lesser extent. At least this is the feeling that you get when you play. This means that the most efficient way to advance in tier is to maximise your match score while minimising that of everyone else. In turn, this results in mid-tier games being matchscore grinding, where dealing damage and using AMS, while ignoring objectives, is the most efficient way to advance for people hoping that getting to a higher tier will result in access to better quality games. I honestly don't expect the higher tier games to be any different, since matchscore grinding and matchscore delta is going to be required to hang onto what can be perceived as a flotation ring that keeps a player out of the chaos of the mid-tier games

This too is false, since nothing mentioned here has changed. Playing the objective has never really been rewarded much, and probably should not either, since killing mechs has always been and still is the main contribution to winning. Trying to play the objective too early is likely to end up helping the enemy team more than it helps yours.

I don't mean to say that the Match Score formula is perfect though. It has always rewarded damage and component destructions disproportionately much compared to wins, kills and kmdd's, and AMS score is also probably overly large.

Edited by Gagis, 07 July 2020 - 02:24 AM.


#243 Kurb

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Posted 07 July 2020 - 03:09 AM

As a clarification, by "reward", I am only referring to the green/red tier position movement arrow, which can be interpreted as a binary "you did good" / "you did bad" indicator.

#244 Red Potato Standing By

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Posted 07 July 2020 - 05:43 AM

Well the best thing to do, is quit thinking the up and down arrows have anything to do with whether you did good or not.( it doesn’t)

#245 OneTeamPlayer

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Posted 07 July 2020 - 07:50 AM

View PostGagis, on 07 July 2020 - 02:22 AM, said:

False. Even if the game was played by just 24 players total, an accurate rating of those players would help the matchmaker divide those 24 into approximately even teams of 12. Previously everyone who played a lot was in Tier 1 and the system could not distinquish between them, and could and often would put all the high performing players in one team and all the low-performing players in the other one, resulting in the kind of unsatisfying matches that made both strong and weak players give up on MWO. This was a disastrous flaw.

Its not too much of a problem if players of multiple skill levels are in the same match, as long as they can be evenly distributed between two teams.


Also false. Match Score has not changed between old and new system. Old system rewarded everything except nonparticipation. New system has a bit more emphasis on winning than the old one. I'd prefer much more emphasis on winning, but this makes people sad when they see their rating go down on a loss even when they tried really hard, and making people sad is probably big enough of a problem we need to relax the quality of matchmaking to make them less sad.


This too is false, since nothing mentioned here has changed. Playing the objective has never really been rewarded much, and probably should not either, since killing mechs has always been and still is the main contribution to winning. Trying to play the objective too early is likely to end up helping the enemy team more than it helps yours.

I don't mean to say that the Match Score formula is perfect though. It has always rewarded damage and component destructions disproportionately much compared to wins, kills and kmdd's, and AMS score is also probably overly large.


I'm going to point out that at no point during my rise to T1 Max bar did i ever worry about winning in this new system, and in fact i made it there ending up at an underwater W/L ratio.

In the old system i cared about objectives because winning ensured that we all rose together, for the most part. After a very short set of horrific drops in this queue i simply realized that there is no team, there are only 23 opponents 11 of which you can't shoot- and my speed of rank gain increased significantly because of it.

You saying "false" doesn't make what he said false, as most of what the other poster stated i agree with.

New PSR is training players out of team based decisions, and despite being sold as a W/L solution actually has more to do with individual performance thus is creating groups of 12 almost entirely individual players rather than teams attempting to work together so they all succeed.

Most people figure out the system after the first time they gain rank on a loss because of high damage then turn around and lose rank on a win where they pursued objectives at the cost of raw damage output yet lost rank.

I mean all the modes are essentially deathmatch, you're right, but on the one that isn't playing the objective is a likely way to personally fail.

Most of us have never seen a Domination game end on time capped, unless the other team is already completely demolished with one or two people running, we rarely see base caps in assault (and will see less as a base cap without a slugfest leads to everyone failing), and conquest is the only mode where we see objective play outmatch murderball on a reasonably regular basis (down on mechs, won on caps) but as of now lights aren't running off to cap because we have to be near constantly engaged the whole fight to gain matchscore in amounts that are easily put up by assaults.

Domination could have been fixed years ago by making the circle move from sector to sector at 1 minute intervals, Assault used to have higher rewards for base cap until players complained and removed the only reason to play that particular objective (because people were actually playing the objective instead of deathball), and thus conquest- the last standing non-skirmish mode was all that we had...and now that's dead too.

#246 Xaat Xuun

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Posted 07 July 2020 - 11:54 AM

was in a match last night , Incursion, one lance went straight for base, won the game, 0 damage, only a 53 MS (was the highest of the 4).

they did the main Objective
the rest of us did the secondary objective, wish I had a screen shot of it, but I think one pilot was 400 something MS, I was 300something, I know one of the enemy was 600something MS,
Now it was easier for the enemy, to focus, due to the 8 vs 12, so they should have, (and did) done more damage from that advantage.

Still, the four pilots that won the match, got crap

#247 Nesutizale

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Posted 07 July 2020 - 12:06 PM

Are people playing the objective..."get the pitchforks"
Are people not playing the objective..."get the pitchforks"

^_^

PS: Anyone else interested in Paul giveing a brief insight of how things are developing? I am.

Had my first matches with a sideway move and from the matches I played so far...I get nearly the same amount of wins and losses....also matches still feel a bit unbalanced but my aspectations is still that this would take at least 3 month anyway to get a good result.

#248 One-Inch Punch

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Posted 09 July 2020 - 04:38 PM

As long as the score system is tied to damage done this new or the old tier rank is completely useless. If I play with lights I'll go down in tier, and I like playing with lights. The overall behave because of this new system is players rushing to do damage, a complete lack of teamplay and a horde of heavies and assaults.
So It's not just "adusting bad players to be with bad players, blah blah", this modificatin changed how player play the game, and hasn't been a good change.

As mentioned above, I'll just forget this thing exist and just try to enjoy the game as much as I can, until I can't.

#249 Tarl Cabot

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Posted 09 July 2020 - 08:01 PM

View PostOne-Inch Punch, on 09 July 2020 - 04:38 PM, said:

As long as the score system is tied to damage done this new or the old tier rank is completely useless. If I play with lights I'll go down in tier, and I like playing with lights. The overall behave because of this new system is players rushing to do damage, a complete lack of teamplay and a horde of heavies and assaults.

So It's not just "adjusting bad players to be with bad players, blah blah", this modification changed how player play the game, and hasn't been a good change.

As mentioned above, I'll just forget this thing exist and just try to enjoy the game as much as I can, until I can't.


It may have changed how players are currently playing it, trying to move up in Tiers but the real test is can they keep it going? In general tier is not an achievement, it is meant to help spread out the population with what they put into the game then eventually spread out enough so that each player would eventually be dropping with others around their same level.

If PGI had actually completed the reset with at least a partial seeding, between Tier 2-4 while leaving Tier 5 alone, it potentially would have been in a better place. PGI even now has new players/accounts starting in Tier 3, like wtf. The overall system is not setup for a zero-sum, only the end of match results.

Before the reset, were you Tier 2, maybe heading into Tier 1 (based on number of games played) and avg MS? I had been Tier 1 for a few years but definitely did not belong in it. Others whose overall avg MS was running 171 MS while winning fewer games than loses made it to Tier 2 and Tier 1 simply with brute force of 25K games, and these would be the same players facing off against others who were/are running avg 300-600 MS..

I really wished PGI would change the name of the Tiers to military designations, ie Elite Veteran, Regular, Green, Basics, which imho is an easier sale than Tier 1 or Tier 3.

#250 Cluster Fox

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Posted 09 July 2020 - 08:45 PM

View PostTarl Cabot, on 09 July 2020 - 08:01 PM, said:

... but the real test is can they keep it going?
... so that each player would eventually be dropping with others around their same level.


People still see Tier as an XP bar, because it still is. Low population means that the drops with people around the same level will likely not happen all the time. So people will continue shifting.

The Tier reset was required to make the current system work. But it didn't have to be.

It's about time the player base gets a stable PSR that shift a bit, then sticks around the PSR representing the player's skill, regardless of how many more matches are played.

View PostOneTeamPlayer, on 07 July 2020 - 07:50 AM, said:

New PSR is training players out of team based decisions ...


Because it doesn't value team decisions. The X=5, Y=20 and C=0.6 are way off, basically catered to "feelings of fairness". Rewarding people about 15 times too much for MS vice a win/loss. So this is what people are trying to get.

Fair X,Y,C is going to be a lot more W/L heavy than people will be willing to palate initially. Because they think about PSR as their own little treat for their end of match. Those same people who are currently farming MS because it's currently obviously much easier to do this for PSR than winning a game.
Spoiler

Edited by Cluster Fox, 09 July 2020 - 09:03 PM.


#251 MrrVlad

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Posted 09 July 2020 - 09:47 PM

Wonder if you would agree with this thinking: reworked PSR would make everyone be close to T1 or T5 eventually, depending on whether they are better or worse than 50% of players, since there is no force that explicitly penalizes extremes. A player will get the same change in score regardless of whether he is t5 or t1.

#252 crazytimes

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Posted 09 July 2020 - 10:06 PM

View PostMrrVlad, on 09 July 2020 - 09:47 PM, said:

Wonder if you would agree with this thinking: reworked PSR would make everyone be close to T1 or T5 eventually, depending on whether they are better or worse than 50% of players, since there is no force that explicitly penalizes extremes. A player will get the same change in score regardless of whether he is t5 or t1.


If they keep the 3 tier spread, then yes, I suspect people will shuffle towards 1 or 5. I am shuffling to 1 slowly and there is no apparent road block.... and I am definitely a sub 80% player. That may slow down as more potatoes drop out of tier 3... but they will have to drop to 5 to get out of my MM reach.

Players would only stablise if they were playing in a single tier spread.

#253 One-Inch Punch

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Posted 10 July 2020 - 09:28 AM

View PostTarl Cabot, on 09 July 2020 - 08:01 PM, said:


It may have changed how players are currently playing it, trying to move up in Tiers but the real test is can they keep it going? In general tier is not an achievement, it is meant to help spread out the population with what they put into the game then eventually spread out enough so that each player would eventually be dropping with others around their same level.

If PGI had actually completed the reset with at least a partial seeding, between Tier 2-4 while leaving Tier 5 alone, it potentially would have been in a better place. PGI even now has new players/accounts starting in Tier 3, like wtf. The overall system is not setup for a zero-sum, only the end of match results.

Before the reset, were you Tier 2, maybe heading into Tier 1 (based on number of games played) and avg MS? I had been Tier 1 for a few years but definitely did not belong in it. Others whose overall avg MS was running 171 MS while winning fewer games than loses made it to Tier 2 and Tier 1 simply with brute force of 25K games, and these would be the same players facing off against others who were/are running avg 300-600 MS..

I really wished PGI would change the name of the Tiers to military designations, ie Elite Veteran, Regular, Green, Basics, which imho is an easier sale than Tier 1 or Tier 3.


I do agree the need for a categorization of players, and naming it Elite, Veteran, etc is a good idea. But my point is not the tier itself, is how MS is calculated: damage. This is not a new problem, It's just more evident, and the queue merges made even worst. The tonnage is all mess up!
If I end up in tier 5 with players throwing lurms at < 50m on each other, Fine! I just want to play the game my way and not get punished.

#254 Timber Ghost

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Posted 10 July 2020 - 10:09 AM

People need to stop looking at the tier system as an achievement. Under the old system, I moved in to tier 1, only because I usually played in a group that won matches. I am simply not a tier 1 player. I do not have the reflexes, dead steady aiming, or the equipment for tier 1. When I jumped in the solo que, I was outmatched 90% of the time. I always said I was a tier 3, maybe a tier 2 player. Tier 1 was frustrating for me to be honest.

The PSR is suppose to be about leveling the teams out. Since the reset, I have played more than I have in the last two years. I am still dead center in tier 3. Some matches I move up, some matches I move down. Under the old system, I almost NEVER moved down. I will say the teamwork is not there like it was in tier 1, but at least I stay alive long enough to get in the fight.

#255 Squibert

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Posted 11 July 2020 - 02:07 PM

I have to say if Skill Rating is only for the MM then why is it visible to the player? Should it not be a hidden value that only the MM looks at? Any thing that is visible should be rewarding to the player. Like a goal or effort indicator, something along those lines.

Right now its more like saying "your in T5 you suck and you will never get to T1 with the pros or elite". Basically anything less then T1 maybe T2 and its a looser sign that the player looks at every time they play.

I get that the MM needs values to work with, but keep those values away from the players. They don't need to see how it works, just the experience that it dose work.

Personally I don't know of any MM games that shows the player what rank value they have for the group maker to put you in a optimal queue, other than some tournament match ups. Of course I haven't played every game in the world but I have played my share.

By the way I have played MWO since pre-relase so I have seen many changes to the game. Some good and some not so good. I did take about 2 years off a few years back.

I was glad for the new 4 player grouping with solo queue. Now my son and I can play together without having to wait 20+ min to get a game. And the games are now more enjoyable, because its not the rest of the team on discord and the 2 of us not knowing what the team is doing, that was so frustrating.

Reading through about 10 pages of the comments it seams that the majority of the players that are praising the PSR change are players that have played less than a year. Most that are not in favor are older veteran players.

Personally I have a hard time with any PSR being a true and real way to judge or assign a rank for quick play games. A great player can't carry a disorganized and dysfunctional team, just as as 1 or 2 awful (even saboteur) players can't cause a team to lose. However a team of average players working together and supporting each other is a force that is hard to contend with. How do you individually rank that? Last I know this was a team game.

Comp Play and Solaris is where PSR's should mater I think.

That's just MHO Posted Image

#256 Squibert

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Posted 11 July 2020 - 03:13 PM

View PostGagis, on 07 July 2020 - 02:22 AM, said:

Also false. Match Score has not changed between old and new system. Old system rewarded everything except nonparticipation. New system has a bit more emphasis on winning than the old one. I'd prefer much more emphasis on winning, but this makes people sad when they see their rating go down on a loss even when they tried really hard, and making people sad is probably big enough of a problem we need to relax the quality of matchmaking to make them less sad.


I agree that how a player achieves a MS hasn't changed. I disagree that then new system has more emphasis on winning on PSR movement. With the old system if your team won it required a certain MS to move up. If your team lost it required a higher score to move up. The over all amount of movement with the old system is a different mater. The amount forward was far greater than backward.

Now with the current system its is your MS compared to all 24 players in the match with a smaller emphasis on win or lose that changes the PSR. With the old system I never got a 400 or higher MS on the wining team and moved backwards, I do now. I also never got a 150-200 score on a loss and moved forward, I do now.

For example, I have noticed that if I am playing a Mech that is set up with pinpoint damage (gauss rifle for example) and secure 3 or more kills ,which in turn allows an easier win for the team, I will still moving back in the PSR because my MS was 250ish. And it did so because the LRM boats with no kills that just hid behind the rest of the team repeatedly saying in the coms "press R for locks, Get me locks." did 1k damage got a MS of 500+ How is that a "much more emphasis on winning"?

IMO I think the old system was okay, Perfect? No, but okay. I think where the change was needed was in the amount of movement a player received, not the way the game determined if or which way the player moved.

#257 apcboss

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Posted 11 July 2020 - 04:30 PM

you finally broke every team spirit aspect of the game all you have managed is to downgrade old experienced players that where enjoying their royalty in the game you kill the game and you dont even notice all i can say for myself i was there from day one im a general of Free Rasalhague Republic that went Rouge and i must say i have to find a different game to play if this disection continious

#258 crazytimes

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Posted 11 July 2020 - 07:48 PM

View PostEfeljay, on 06 July 2020 - 02:27 AM, said:

Further, the new psr system is worse.
I had a couple matchs where i had a couple kills, no team damage, had flanked the enemy to get them to turn so my team could push in, but had low damage and although we won and i definately played a role in the win, my psr dropped...


The new system is really highlighting the difference between people who think they are contributing versus people who actually contributed. The most useful thing anyone can do is be applying effective damage to the CT of the enemy mechs. Any other action that you are doing is less useful than that. Except headshots I suppose.

If you aren't above the average MS, and are on the winning team, then you didn't really value add and your PSR goes down. It is not a punishment, it is a system meant to keep you playing against your peers.

Well, if there wasn't a 3 tier spread on match maker anyhow...

#259 Big-G

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Posted 11 July 2020 - 08:23 PM

View Postcrazytimes, on 11 July 2020 - 07:48 PM, said:


The new system is really highlighting the difference between people who think they are contributing versus people who actually contributed. The most useful thing anyone can do is be applying effective damage to the CT of the enemy mechs. Any other action that you are doing is less useful than that. Except headshots I suppose.

If you aren't above the average MS, and are on the winning team, then you didn't really value add and your PSR goes down. It is not a punishment, it is a system meant to keep you playing against your peers.

Well, if there wasn't a 3 tier spread on match maker anyhow...

So effectively... playing the game objectives... are frowned upon...
Supporting the team... is frowned upon...

This "way" totally ignores the roles aspect of mechs...

#260 crazytimes

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Posted 11 July 2020 - 08:28 PM

View PostBig-G, on 11 July 2020 - 08:23 PM, said:

So effectively... playing the game objectives... are frowned upon...
Supporting the team... is frowned upon...

This "way" totally ignores the roles aspect of mechs...


It's not 'frowned' upon, you will just have your tier adjusted until you are playing exclusively with people that 'play the objective' and 'support' and 'snipe' and 'I brought 95 lurms, press R and hold locks' and 'check out my LB20 + 2xMRM30 Atlas in chain fire' and 'guys it's Polar Highlands and I brought a 6 flamer 2 HMG Nova, we got this'.

If you don't want to be a part of that group, then do damage by shooting mechs in the CT. They aren't "wrong" or "frowned upon" they are just people I don't want to be playing with, so I am making a positive effort to play better and do effective damage, which is being reflected in my signifiganrtly higher W/L, K/D and MS this season, as well as my climb towards tier 1.





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