46 replies to this topic

[Whiskiz]

I try this new mode and go a Medium. I get put up against an Assault.

I go a Light, get put up against a Heavy.

The first mech was one of the trials, thinking only trials were available because yet another obtuse and overtly hare-brained system design that i swear is more designed to hide features than present them, the one currently in question of course being how to choose your own mechs.

Weight class doesn't matter so much in QP because it's a team game, it matters *alot* in 1v1, in a small arena no less.

Please don't hit me with a "well once i did this, once i saw that" because outliers are just that. Random games of the 'ol "expected this rinky dink medium to get destroyed quickly while in my assault, but i got wrecked"

No really, is this thing a joke?

The dumbest part is apparently this crew renewing their MW license for another 5 years. For what? More ****** designed modes, ****** designed systems, or ****** designed new games?

Edit: No wonder Solaris 7 is seemingly all but dead, which really makes the design shine because if you're using a favorite mech and the other 1 opponent in que happens to have a hard counter and/or are just alot better? You have to change your entire division let alone mech.

And another thing, not only are the divisions seemingly random, but each one of course has its own que, splitting up a non-existant community that much more.

Seriously who ok'd this garbage and why are you actively trying to sabotage the company?

Edited by Whiskiz, 25 June 2020 - 09:17 AM.

[SlippnGriff]

Yea you just got PRANKED, theres a camera right there

Edited by SlippnGriff, 25 June 2020 - 09:13 AM.

[Vindicated]

Whiskiz, on 25 June 2020 - 08:53 AM, said:

I go a Light, get put up against a Heavy.

My first solaris game was in Div 2, I think I used splat dog. Opponent was a Piranha. Got him red (don't remember if core or leg, but either would have been enough) but got leg humped before being able to finish. Was not able to look down on him, plus he probably went to the other side of me as I turned.

Immediately went back to skill tree and bought all the torso pitch nodes available but not sure that will be enough by the time leg hump happens. Seeing as I've had similar QP experiences with a leg humping stealth commando against my other heavies, this isn't uncommon

[Horseman]

Whiskiz, on 25 June 2020 - 08:53 AM, said:

I try this new mode

This "new" mode that has been in the game for two years? Without reading the patch notes that introduced it?
That's known as pilot error, mate.

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and go a Medium. I get put up against an Assault.
I go a Light, get put up against a Heavy.

https://mwomercs.com/s7-mech-divisions

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Weight class doesn't matter so much in QP because it's a team game, it matters *alot* in 1v1, in a small arena no less.

No, your combat skills and build optimization are what matters. By all means drop in a 100 tonner - and you'll get rekt by a 40 ton backstabber or a 20 ton facehugger. Or a 20 ton kiting *******.

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Edit: No wonder Solaris 7 is seemingly all but dead,

Solaris picks up for about 2-3 weeks whenever there's a new season. After that the causals sod off because they again remember that they couldn't cut it in this mode. We're currently 37 days into the season, 53 days to go before the next reset.

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if you're using a favorite mech and the other 1 opponent in que happens to have a hard counter and/or are just alot better?

Then you should stop playing favourites and focus on figuring out how to adapt to that opponent.

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And another thing, not only are the divisions seemingly random,

They're not. It's clear they started with setting up four divisions by tonnage class and then adjusted based on mech performance.

[Whiskiz]

I can try-hard break your response down too but it doesn't change the fact:

1 - You're really going to start your response, by just calling-out me calling the mode new? Probably the most unimportant thing, especially when it's a matter of perspective. The game has been out 7 years, this new mode just 2. I also haven't played since before this new mode. Otherwise exactly how much time has to pass before something is no longer considered new?

2 - Your resource link highlights the failing of the design as i stated, cause if we have to do any research online about the base mechanics of it then it's as obtuse as i previously stated. My apologies for not spending the time to do research online to find that, not to mention it being like 7 massive lists of random mechs based on random performances from random players all with varying builds and skill, on each chassis.

3 - If you get wrecked in a 100 tonner by a light in such a small arena with no objectives, you should uninstall. As cute as it sounds in theory though. My Light v Heavy match the opponent hadn't even left his spawn spot, instantly backing up against the wall. Love to see a video of you still accomplishing a kill in this situation. And let's not even try to mention kiting even being an option in such small arenas with the majority of them being so open.

Please.

4 - Any money says the casuals sod off because of the mode and how it's designed, not because "they couldn't cut it" but another thing that sounds great in theory.

5 - If i have to stop playing what mech i want to play, when i want to play it, that again says more about the failing of the design than me. You better believe i'm not going to go with a whole new mech/setup just to counter each unique hardcore snowflake and their setup and i shouldn't have to.

6 - It being clear they started with 4 weight classes and adjusted from there, meaning if you do the research online or were here when it was created?

Edited by Whiskiz, 25 June 2020 - 12:05 PM.

[Horseman]

Whiskiz, on 25 June 2020 - 12:01 PM, said:

2 - Your resource link highlights the failing of the design as i stated, cause if we have to do any research online about the base mechanics of it then it's as obtuse as i previously stated.

Any more than Faction Play?
The fault is on you for jumping into the mode while having zero understanding of it.

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My apologies for not spending the time to do research online to find that, not to mention it being like 7 massive lists of random mechs based on random performances from random players all with varying builds and skill, on each chassis

They are not based on "random performances from random players". For first year or so, PGI was moving mechs up and down to different divisions based on how they performed relatively to the rest of their respective division. Which means that yes, if there was a meta build that was dominant in its' respective division you could bet the chassis would be bumped up come next season. Some went up only once, some did several times.

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3 - If you get wrecked in a 100 tonner by a light in such a small arena with no objectives, you should uninstall

False. You operate under the fatally flawed assumption that mech performance scales linearly up with tonnage - which it doesn't - and that both players will just shoot each other in the face until one goes down - which they won't.
First, even mechs in the same tonnage brackets can wildly differ in their capabilities.
Second, a competent pilot in a lighter mech can utilize cover and abuse their opponent's lower mobility to avoid getting damaged in CQC, to kite them using longer-ranged weaponry (since most Solaris combatants focus on mid-to-short range weapons) or to perform hit-and-run attacks. Been on the receiving end of that often enough to know that it's a viable strategy if executed properly.

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My Light v Heavy match the opponent hadn't even left his spawn spot, instantly backing up against the wall. Love to see a video of you still accomplishing a kill in this situation.

I rarely play lights in S7, but here... enjoy:


And yes, I've got a bunch of screenshots from match results where I took out heavy and assault mechs while running mediums, which is another thing according to your claims should be impossible.

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And let's not even try to mention kiting even being an option in such small arenas with the majority of them being so open

I'm counting two "open" arenas, that being Boreal and Steiner. You have two votes to eliminate arenas that are inconvenient for you - yay math?
Even if you end up on either, both have useable cover and Steiner in particular has plenty enough that a light can easily control the map and papercut assault mechs to death using ERLLs or PPCs.
And kiting doesn't require you to maintain constant contact with the enemy, just to substantially outrange them.

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5 - If i have to stop playing what mech i want to play, when i want to play it, that again says more about the failing of the design than me. You better believe i'm not going to go with a whole new mech/setup just to counter each unique hardcore snowflake and their setup and i shouldn't have to.

And stop right there.
Solaris is a ranked mode.
Choosing the mechs and builds accordingly to what you're expecting to encounter is part of the mode's gameplay.
You expect to go in with whatever random build you've got and be competitive
That's a straight "nope, not gonna happen". You are deliberately and knowingly putting yourself at a disadvantage, so stop complaining you get wrecked as a result. The problem is with your attitude and expectations, not with the mode.

If you want a place for casual pew-pew with your beer buddies, private lobbies are there for you to use - you can pick whatever maps you prefer and play with whatever mechs you want (and whatever house rules you want to impose).

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6 - It being clear they started with 4 weight classes and adjusted from there, meaning if you do the research online or were here when it was created?

Meaning if you check how different tonnage categories are distributed between divisions it becomes glaringly obvious.
But yes, thank you, I have been playing the mode since it launched two years ago. You can see that on the leaderboards.

Edited by Horseman, 25 June 2020 - 01:47 PM.

[chevy42083]

They are divisioned out by ability and general scores, and divisions get tweaked each season. The less played mechs are more likely to end up in a lower or higher division because they don't have the data to support moving them around. As stated, this STARTED based on weight, but has been tweaked pretty far from the origins.

If you were fighting against heavier guys, then you chose a very good lighter mech that usually fairs better against them, or they chose a heavy mech that usually doesn't do as well.

If you lost, something was lacking on your end or better on their end, either ability or loadout (Good Solaris load outs are NOT the same as QP). Or sometimes, the pendulum just swings one way.

Trials are almost always bad... especially is Solaris, which needs specific loadouts.

The choosing of mechs becomes easier once you play solaris a bit. I actually thought you couldn't change your mech within the division for awhile... then found that button. Now I bump them around a bit, but still usually just play 1 per division.

The only draw back being that you nail down the loadouts for your 7 Solaris mechs, then they may suck in QP. I simply denote those 7 as solaris only (by camo color) so I don't choose them in QP.

Once you have a mech setup for each division,you just click through the division to see if anyone is queued, and hop on. Obviously, someone else might be doing the same... so you occasionally choose the mech you want to play the most, and queue up for that division. Sometimes, there's simply no one else playing, but usually, someone one hops on the game. And they stick around as long as someone else is playing.

Edited by chevy42083, 26 June 2020 - 08:10 AM.

[Dionnsai]

Only a small percentage of the player base can stomach Solaris. Solaris is not easy, especially for the unprepared.

It would not matter HOW the divisions were set up, this would always be true if it was a 1v1 or 2v2 fight. When you run into an experienced Solaris pilot, you're running into someone who has looked at the leaderboards, knows his opponent's mechs and builds and is making his best attempt to fight them. Bring a "random mech" and you're going to lose.

There are no teams there to blame if you lose, it's all on you and your opponent. If you choose your mech and build poorly, if you don't research your opponents and prepare to fight them you will lose. I've seen top pilots in the game lose to absolute potatoes in Solaris because of this.

4+ way free for all might change that a bit by introducing an element of chaos into the fight, but that's never happening in MWO because it isn't designed to handle more than 2 teams.

You could probably compare this to MMA, when some random Kung-Fu master shows up and gets trashed by a straight up boxer.

Edited by Dionnsai, 27 June 2020 - 08:02 AM.

[Ghost Paladin117]

Whiskiz, on 25 June 2020 - 12:01 PM, said:

I can try-hard break your response down too but it doesn't change the fact:

1 - You're really going to start your response, by just calling-out me calling the mode new? Probably the most unimportant thing, especially when it's a matter of perspective. The game has been out 7 years, this new mode just 2. I also haven't played since before this new mode. Otherwise exactly how much time has to pass before something is no longer considered new?

2 - Your resource link highlights the failing of the design as i stated, cause if we have to do any research online about the base mechanics of it then it's as obtuse as i previously stated. My apologies for not spending the time to do research online to find that, not to mention it being like 7 massive lists of random mechs based on random performances from random players all with varying builds and skill, on each chassis.

3 - If you get wrecked in a 100 tonner by a light in such a small arena with no objectives, you should uninstall. As cute as it sounds in theory though. My Light v Heavy match the opponent hadn't even left his spawn spot, instantly backing up against the wall. Love to see a video of you still accomplishing a kill in this situation. And let's not even try to mention kiting even being an option in such small arenas with the majority of them being so open.

Please.

4 - Any money says the casuals sod off because of the mode and how it's designed, not because "they couldn't cut it" but another thing that sounds great in theory.

5 - If i have to stop playing what mech i want to play, when i want to play it, that again says more about the failing of the design than me. You better believe i'm not going to go with a whole new mech/setup just to counter each unique hardcore snowflake and their setup and i shouldn't have to.

6 - It being clear they started with 4 weight classes and adjusted from there, meaning if you do the research online or were here when it was created?

Don't get me wrong, Solaris could use some love but you gotta accept that a lot of this game can be learned online, whether or not it should be, just that it can.
I routinely crush 100 tonners in a 40 tonner in div 1. Easily.
I also play mechs I like. I can usually balance the lack of optimized build against meta in certain divs and still come out on top.
The light versus heavy matchup can be easily seen in Solaris.

[Nesutizale]

I like Solaris too but it has its problems.


First of to many Divisions. With the playerbase that thin its hard to find another player. Reduce it to 4, maybe even down to 3.

Then we have the mechs avaible in Solaris and how they are spread in the divisions. I think a lot could be done by reduceing the number of mechs for each division and have them as avaible for everyone...with a minus to income. Kinda like you are renting the mechs or you can buy them to save the renting fee.

Very unpopular idea might to go even so far to restric loadouts. With that you could do actual balance to the mechs avaible in each division and you would create an envoirment that is more skill based, where finding the best pilot matters more then just rebuilding the latest meta mech of that division.
Add a rock paper siccor like matchup of mechs and it gets realy interesting.

Maybe even introduce the Solaris Mechs to Solaris? I mean they where build specificly for Solaris....so....

Another point is it needs more spectacle. Adding the spectator cam was a good idea but IIRC the use was pretty unintuitive.
Then there is no ingame betting. Just with Cbills, no realworld gambling allowed and the participants of the match get a small bonus from the overall bets that where placed, so when you are doing well in Solaris and people like to bet on your game then you get a bonus.

Sure Cbills aren't that big of an incentive for most players of old as they most likely have more then enough money but just for the lulz....why not bet some of that money and watch a match or two?

Also there needs to be a way to make the mode more attractive for streamers. Cockpit view might be nice but we need fixed cams or an auto director that cuts together the action for twitch and whatever users to watch the match.
I think it could make the mode more popular with streamers if they would watch it like they are a viewer in the arena then the constant cockpit view while commentors of the community can voice over whats happening.

That are some of the points that come to my mind. Overall I liked to play Solaris when it came out. Its quite a different challange from SQ but I prefered more the middle divisions. More interesting mechs and more different mechs you could run into. Sadly there are just not enough people anymore.

[Horseman]

Nesutizale, on 24 August 2020 - 04:20 AM, said:

First of to many Divisions. With the playerbase that thin its hard to find another player. Reduce it to 4, maybe even down to 3.

The problem is less with the number of divisions and more with the fact you can only queue up in one at a time. If we were able to queue up for multiple divisions at once, the problem would be far less pronounced.

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I think a lot could be done by reduceing the number of mechs for each division

Except that would mean some mechs cannot be played in Solaris at all. Customer revolt in 5, 4, 3, 2, 1

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and have them as avaible for everyone...with a minus to income. Kinda like you are renting the mechs or you can buy them to save the renting fee.

Ie trial mechs. Which, incidentally, are doing far worse in S7 than in QP and may need replacing entirely with some at least minimally viable builds.

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Very unpopular idea might to go even so far to restric loadouts.

There already are restrictions, actually, if fairly limited (IIRC it was to prevent direstar-like builds)

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With that you could do actual balance to the mechs avaible in each division and you would create an envoirment that is more skill based, where finding the best pilot matters more then just rebuilding the latest meta mech of that division.
Add a rock paper siccor like matchup of mechs and it gets realy interesting.

Trust me that paper-scissors-rock does exist when talking about optimized builds.

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Another point is it needs more spectacle. Adding the spectator cam was a good idea but IIRC the use was pretty unintuitive.
Then there is no ingame betting. Just with Cbills, no realworld gambling allowed and the participants of the match get a small bonus from the overall bets that where placed, so when you are doing well in Solaris and people like to bet on your game then you get a bonus.

That would be cool, but there isn't enough lead time before matches to do that. You'd have to have some sort of scheduled "exhibition matches" for that, and that might be iffy.

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That are some of the points that come to my mind. Overall I liked to play Solaris when it came out. Its quite a different challange from SQ but I prefered more the middle divisions. More interesting mechs and more different mechs you could run into. Sadly there are just not enough people anymore.

It does get a bump in activity whenever a season starts.

Edited by Horseman, 24 August 2020 - 07:21 AM.

[Nesutizale]

Horseman, on 24 August 2020 - 07:20 AM, said:

The problem is less with the number of divisions and more with the fact you can only queue up in one at a time. If we were able to queue up for multiple divisions at once, the problem would be far less pronounced.

That could work too. You would just have to make sure that you have valid mechs for all divisions or that you are able to select what divisions you want to participate in.

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Except that would mean some mechs cannot be played in Solaris at all. Customer revolt in 5, 4, 3, 2, 1
Ie trial mechs. Which, incidentally, are doing far worse in S7 than in QP and may need replacing entirely with some at least minimally viable builds.

Yes I bet that some people wouldn't like that. Point is that I think match quality would be more importend and that people will adapt to not see their favorite mech and take the next best one.
In the end when people notice that the few mechs are more well balanced and all are valid the mode becomes much more interesting I think.

Also isn't the selection allready an illusion of choice? I mean you can either play the S7 meta build of the division or you can go back to SQ. You won't stand a chance at all in S7...or very little if you are a very good player.
So its allready a very, very narrow selection of valid options.

I have seen enough people at starts of season taking their favorit mech and loose so hard. Damn sometimes I started asking people if they still need a victory for the event and then let them win if they wanted an easy win.
Sadly I will most likely be now on the other side...haven't played S7 for some time and have no clue what the meta is
Well I hope to get around the first 500 to 200, that should be archivable.

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Trust me that paper-scissors-rock does exist when talking about optimized builds.

Yah thats exactly the point why I would try to put in some heavy restrictions. Also I wouldn't mind of we would have a free for all division with no restriction of mech and build while the others follow very strict rules.
Also a big stomping should happen every now and then as a special event. There is also a prototype map that was never finished that would be ideal for that. I think its still part of the private matches.

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That would be cool, but there isn't enough lead time before matches to do that. You'd have to have some sort of scheduled "exhibition matches" for that, and that might be iffy.

Yah right...mh...also matches are over very fast. On the other hand what if those matches wouldn't be life but a streamer could take "recorded" matches and render, cut and comment them on their PC for later release?

From WoWs there is a technic that "records" a match by making a log file that writes down position, weapon used, etc. for the entire match. Since its just a text file it dosn't take up a lot of space.

Those could be saved on your PC. Later then you load up that file and just spectate the match and make your recording, commenting and cutting with all the tools we saw during the "World Championship" with mechdata shown, jumping into the cockpits or flying over the battlefield.

Should you have a little bit of knowhow you could even add nice camera moves or postpro effects later on like a slowmotion to highlight parts of the match.

Damn I just get a nerdgasm about some fancy S7 mechporn in my head.
Sadly we will never see something like that.

[Horseman]

Nesutizale, on 24 August 2020 - 10:30 AM, said:

Yes I bet that some people wouldn't like that. Point is that I think match quality would be more importend and that people will adapt to not see their favorite mech and take the next best one.
In the end when people notice that the few mechs are more well balanced and all are valid the mode becomes much more interesting I think.

I mean, if the goal is to shake up the meta then you probably want something more along the lines of "top X chassis from last season are unavailable for the Y seasons"
Realistically, though, all that would cause is emergence of a new meta.

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Sadly I will most likely be now on the other side...haven't played S7 for some time and have no clue what the meta is

You can always check the leaderboards to see what the top players are running. Not that there have been much change these past few seasons.

[Nesutizale]

A new meta each season? I am all for it. That would make it actualy interesting and might bring some of the underused mechs into the spotlight.

[MTier Slayed Up]

Whiskiz, on 25 June 2020 - 08:53 AM, said:

Pilot Error

I just summed up your entire gripe.

I pilot mediums and go against assaults and win pretty handily.

Several seasons in and yet people don't know the builds for it or the typical mech you should take in each Div.

It's a git gewd mode. All gripes will be treated as "lol"

Edit - The only reason people complain about Solaris is when there's an event happening, and boy do people get salty when they lose.

Edited by mynameis T R A S H, 25 August 2020 - 10:15 PM.

[Nesutizale]

I guess that happens when they take their loved mech from QP into S7 and have to find out that it won't work there and they go into "but...but...but" mode

I haven't played S7 for some time and boy it is hard to get back into. Espacialy if you don't have a good mech for a division and just try to get along with whatever you have.

[Aidan Crenshaw]

Just keep dropping, eventually you will face a player that tries his luck in a trial mech.

[MechWarrior414712]

Yes

[Nesutizale]

While I never faced any trail mechs I finished the event.
Now to the real hard part...getting qualified AND makeing it into the top...200 maybe? More realisticly 500 I guess

[Brauer]

Nesutizale, on 27 August 2020 - 12:40 AM, said:

While I never faced any trail mechs I finished the event.
Now to the real hard part...getting qualified AND makeing it into the top...200 maybe? More realisticly 500 I guess

If I am reading the global overview leaderboard correctly only 720 players did more than 25 matches last season, and Div 1 lists only about 180 people as having completed 25 matches. Top 200 is likely the participation reward at this stage.

Edited by Brauer, 27 August 2020 - 05:52 PM.