144 replies to this topic

[Dionnsai]

I'm still waiting for the second wave of rage when people who thought they were "tier 1" fall into tier 4 for the first time and their tater world is shattered to the core.

Edited by Dionnsai, 02 July 2020 - 11:26 AM.

[Zephrym]

First off, I won't disagree with the constructive criticisms and observations posted thus far. After a brief hiatus caused by burn-out and real life, I've returned to MWO for the tier reset that happened to coincide with a week off work. Yes, it's all a bit random, scattered team mates, stomps, shooting fish in a barrel, wondering why there's no support when you push, etc.

I've also had the opportunity to monitor a number of twitch streamers to get a better idea of match quality but also the community mentality. As you'd expect, it's a mixed bag. There are those that actively encourage and support new players; those that are neutral and there for the fun if it/routine of it; and sadly, those that are outwardly toxic and revert to playground bully mentality in the attempt to garner more sycophants.

The important thing that I feel is missing is the sense of community. How can we better support new players beyond voip drop calling and the sharing of tactics and game mechanics?

After all, this is the perfect opportunity while we're a mixed bag of abilities to share our knowledge, experience and perhaps resources.

I can remember many years ago when I first heard someone say "focus alpha atlas in Charlie 3". What alchemy is this? I know what an Atlas is but it took me a couple of games to realise that each mech was assigned a letter.... And (far too long) later to be able to read the minimap whilst piloting.

The learning curve and grind are real. As is the new player experience.

To help with the learning curve all we can do is be patient, be constructive and be communicative. Having said that, I also recognise that attempts to communicate often fall on deaf ears.

To help with grind is tricky. Throwing it out there, I'd happily have a tick box that would randomly donate half/all of my match c-bills and/or Xp to a new player. I'm not sure how this could be achieved, maybe based on number of games played for eligibility?

Maybe encourage new players with a loot box after every game during the cadet phase?

TL;DR - If we want a larger community, we need to start acting like a community. Support the newcomers in whatever way we can (and that means you too PGI).

I'll get my coat.....

Z.

[ghost1e]

Dionnsai, on 02 July 2020 - 11:26 AM, said:

I'm still waiting for the second wave of rage when people who thought they were "tier 1" fall into tier 4 for the first time and their tater world is shattered to the core.

yes *rubbing hands*

Edited by TheUltimateGhost, 02 July 2020 - 01:10 PM.

[Cluster Fox]

Tarl Cabot, on 02 July 2020 - 06:25 AM, said:

And depending on how many games players put in, you will see lots of those for a few months. Why?

• No Seeding utilized but stuck EVERYONE in Mid-Tier 3/PSR
  
• Above SOO wrong, primarily for new players who had just started (Paul's infamous graph showing tons of Tier 5 over last 2 months), and for previously new players who may come back to an existing account. Now All of them are in Tier 3... Think about that.. being a newbie and literally being thrown to the wolves.
  
• Tier 5 players should be reverted back to Tier 5, or at least Tier 4, especially those who may not have recently played.

Tarl, unfortunately we know this about the system in place: It tends to have slow movement around the middle and pushes the edges to infinity. So the only way to get a normal distribution, like Paul wants, is to start everyone at the middle.

However such a distribution is meaningless if it does not correlate to matchscore and WLR. You'll get a normal distribution of PSR, mostly unrelated to player skill... great news !

That's because the PSR system used currently has no stable end-state.

Yet, PGI is one known variable away from being able to implement a stable system independent of # matches played.
Spoiler : the variable is PSR itself, as used by the MM before the match, so no costly player data access required...

https://mwomercs.com...stabilizing-it/ Challenge 2 highlights the solution.

So far, I've seen no pushback or counter-argument to that formula and analysis. Well, good I guess, but it seems to be it's own doom. It'll get swept under the rug since people don't reply aggressively on it... ironic isn't it?

Seems like it IS a popularity contest, and I failed to generate controversy...

Edited by Cluster Fox, 02 July 2020 - 02:48 PM.

[crazytimes]

Dionnsai, on 02 July 2020 - 11:26 AM, said:

I'm still waiting for the second wave of rage when people who thought they were "tier 1" fall into tier 4 for the first time and their tater world is shattered to the core.

Some are presenting their argument already on other platforms. It largely revolves around every other player is part of a comp team and they are running synch drops of meta mechs that aren't "fun". But the tater feels like the tater should still move up tiers to remain with those "comp teams", rather than lose PSR even on wins.

From my perspective... I seem to be headed towards tier 2 and that's probably a safe spot for me. As long as I keep getting matches without waiting 10 minutes its all good.

[VerKa]

Tier 5 here I come. I haven't seen so many stomps since I started playing MWO.

[Trifakt]

Have patience guys

I am already back in tier 1. So the player base starts to sort itself

Probably things will normalize after the weekend.

Edited by Trifakt, 02 July 2020 - 05:05 PM.

[Red Potato Standing By]

crazytimes, on 02 July 2020 - 03:27 PM, said:

Some are presenting their argument already on other platforms. It largely revolves around every other player is part of a comp team and they are running synch drops of meta mechs that aren't "fun". But the tater feels like the tater should still move up tiers to remain with those "comp teams", rather than lose PSR even on wins.

From my perspective... I seem to be headed towards tier 2 and that's probably a safe spot for me. As long as I keep getting matches without waiting 10 minutes its all good.

I am staying about even right in the middle of tier three not going up or down. So basically right where I figured I should be roughly and I am ok with that. I am going to still try and get better but who knows,game will probably be dead and gone( or I will be) before that happens...lol

[Dodger1919]

I don't know if anyone else noticed, but it seems like this system neglects support role mechs. I've noticed when I play support roles, such as spotting, or capping even carrying a team in capping, I still get a negative score for that match as my damage is lower. Is there a plan to put more weight on those activities, ex. ams cover, capping, scouting...? It takes a little bit of fun out when I have to run strictly my higher damage output mechs to maintain tier.

[OneTeamPlayer]

Trifakt, on 02 July 2020 - 05:03 PM, said:

Have patience guys

I am already back in tier 1. So the player base starts to sort itself

Probably things will normalize after the weekend.

Anyone playing in a group should be nearing T1 by the end of this weekend unless they are completely terrible at the game.

[Trifakt]

OneTeamPlayer, on 02 July 2020 - 08:11 PM, said:

Anyone playing in a group should be nearing T1 by the end of this weekend unless they are completely terrible at the game.

Actually I am not playing in a group. Btw I have seen groups doing horrible in the last days. A group of tier 3 players will most likely never make it in tier 1. And thats good.

Edited by Trifakt, 03 July 2020 - 02:14 AM.

[Mordak6]

Yeah, pretty much done with the game at this point.

I can't win a game to save my life, I've been on nothing but the wrong end of blowouts since the start of July.

You guys ruined a good thing, and I'm taking my money elsewhere to be entertained. I wanted to support B-tech but in this current form, I'd rather go play Pong.

[ghost1e]

Mordak6, on 03 July 2020 - 12:04 PM, said:

Yeah, pretty much done with the game at this point.

I can't win a game to save my life, I've been on nothing but the wrong end of blowouts since the start of July.

You guys ruined a good thing, and I'm taking my money elsewhere to be entertained. I wanted to support B-tech but in this current form, I'd rather go play Pong.

well, maybe start looking for the problem that makes you lose matches
If you ever need advice or sth, the comp community is pretty friendly around here

[D V Devnull]

Dodger1919, on 02 July 2020 - 07:45 PM, said:

I don't know if anyone else noticed, but it seems like this system neglects support role mechs. I've noticed when I play support roles, such as spotting, or capping even carrying a team in capping, I still get a negative score for that match as my damage is lower. Is there a plan to put more weight on those activities, ex. ams cover, capping, scouting...? It takes a little bit of fun out when I have to run strictly my higher damage output mechs to maintain tier.

You're not the only one to have finally noticed this.

Anyway, I should warn that I'm about to get on a bit of a (more than likely well-justified) rant here, and that I'm seriously not trying to take a swing at you. If you wish to keep reading after that warning, please continue reading on down.

It so happens that for some long number of years now, MWO's Match Scoring System has ruthlessly been constantly biased towards Damage Output, and against literally everything else. Add to that all the Pro-Ballistic and Anti-'Everything Else' Changes that have happened, and essentially the game is 'Match Score'-biased purely towards Ballistic Damage only. There have been a lot of people who simply don't get that Damage is not everything in a Match, unless it's that Skirmish mode (that I wish would be removed because of how all the other modes sickeningly devolve) because of how killing is the only objective there.

Heck, I've even been put in a bad spot myself because of how Game Balance has been shifted to the point that Pinpoint Ballistic Damage is the most glorified thing, with everything else being glared down upon. In particular, because the Balance has been turned into a Bias that totally pushes aside anyone who has...

• Slow Brain and/or Damaged parts thereof
  (even though MWO was supposed to be a "Thinking Man's Shooter", it got made into a twitch-fest that really gives no time for any reasonable Tactical Analysis and/or anything that takes any semblance of time to do)
  
• Slow and/or Non-Obedient Body, with some of the same issues applying from above with the Brain, but in regard to the other Body Parts
  (such as of a Medical Disability, sustained bodily damage that can not be repaired, simple occurrence of Old Age, and/or a Hereditary Physical Limit that simply could never be ignored)
  
• Slow Computer
  (and the player does NOT have the Real $$$ to just go upgrade... which happens to be far too many people living under that restriction, both back in previous years and even in these days now)

...as there is now effectively a 'Current Hidden Requirement' of...

• The absolutely fastest Computer you can get your hands on
  
• A fully-functioning body & brain that are NOT afflicted by anything detrimental

...which has unfortunately relegated the game to only having the best experience for those who happen to be able to afford anything they want, and also can function & react quickly to everything that is going on during any given Match played. In short, the powerful & rich get to rise, and all while the rest of us have to suffer under their crushing feet. Not fun, eh?

This said, I did hear something in the proverbial rumor mill about various Actions getting some kind of Match Score Rework in the future. Unfortunately, all of that is being handled too deeply behind the equivalent of closed doors, if it is really being done in any way/shape/form at all. If any of that actually appears, we must not expect it to be of any reasonable agreeability to about 80% of the remaining Player Base currently present out there. While there are those who would like for their 'Non-FaceTank Combat'-type of Actions to be given their proper function & value, there are unfortunately many times more viscerally-bent toxic people who would rather to wrongfully force anyone else into doing nothing other than Combat only for any given Match played. Worse, those bloodthirst-consumed toxic people are rather sadly out to do away with all Game Modes other than the Skirmish Mode (that I have personally come to detest, possibly in part due to my upbringing with "MechWarrior 2" & "MechWarrior 3" as my first "BattleTech Universe"-based games, and how they always prioritized Objectives on the field) in the MWO game. This game has already lost too many of those who never wanted MWO to be like a messed-up boiling of "World of Tanks"/"Hawken"/"Call of Duty" all packed in a black cauldron. No real consideration of...

• Lore
  
• Roles
  
• Support
  
• Tactics
  
• Strategy
  
• Communication
  
• too many Other Non-Combat Things

...has ever been made for many years now, and I truthfully do not expect that it ever will. I almost feel like things would have to get to the point of "hell freezing over" (as the saying goes) before this game would get put to being right. However, that kind of "infinity-minus-one to one against" (to quote "HitchHiker's Guide To The Galaxy") situation is one which I would be glad to ultimately see myself proven wrong on, which also might be the only reason (if for no other reason than just out of somebody's hidden spite against me — which might also be me merely being stupidly paranoid in a bad way) by which MWO ever gets properly fixed.

~Mr. D. V. "pointing out a massive multiple waterfall of glaring issues with MWO that still remain even now" Devnull





[Edit by Post's Author to correct Formatting-related issues and a Link that didn't post properly.]

Edited by D V Devnull, 04 July 2020 - 02:23 AM.

[selfish shellfish]

Disclaimer:
I do not know how this new system will pan out in the long run as there has been some compelling calculations predicting it's demise.

That said there seems to be some misunderstanding about PSR. The system is supposed to lower your PSR when you are running around for example with AMS and ECM in a support role doing low damage. The previous Tier value was an experience bar and this gave even the casual players a feeling of advancement. So it was natural to assume that advancement in Tier was a reward. However Tier advancement is supposed to be a punishment. If you are doing well you get a higher PSR rating and are matched against better players so that you will do worse.

I think that the problem is psychological. People tend to think that if their Tier level starts to drop they are being punished. When instead the system is trying to put them against other players of a lower skill level to help out. Maybe it would have been better to leave the previous Tier system in place giving people a sense of advancement and calculating the actual PSR and matchmaker hidden in the background.

Personally I am slowly moving towards Tier 4 and I feel that this is correct. The system is trying to match me against other players with a similar skill level. Of course it is too early days and I still get matched with those of much higher skill. But in the long run this should lead to a better playing experience.

P.S.
I have also seen Tier/PSR system being somehow tied to encouraging / discouraging team play. Team play should be rewarded by the core game play mechanisms. Which I think it already is. If you run around alone you will most likely end up losing the match and getting less XP and C-bills. Or taken out early by a team of enemy players.

PSR calculation and Tier advancement should not be used as a team play encouragement system. It is purely to calculate individual players personal performance in order to avoid matching players of a different skill levels against each other.

Edited by selfish shellfish, 05 July 2020 - 04:42 PM.

[General Solo]

Just a note

I think the system needs to properly reward securing kills moar than noaw.

I mean we won I stole some kills for the win, less guns shooting at moi team I might add yeah!

And me PSR went down

On a win 2 kills 2-300 damage PSR down?

Precision kill securing should be rewarded better, just saying

Edit: Its happened a few games now, MM does not mesh with moi efficient play style CT only

Edited by OZHomerOZ, 04 July 2020 - 10:33 PM.

[Big-G]

I just feel the new setup is punishing players who try their best but aren't able to carry weak/disorganized/lazy teams.

[Ridir Semii]

Big-G, on 05 July 2020 - 04:46 AM, said:

I just feel the new setup is punishing players who try their best but aren't able to carry weak/disorganized/lazy teams.

You posted this in every topic about psr changes, we get it, you cannot carry a team and want more presents in your stocking this year..... jeebus people are entitled these days...… A new PSR/ MM system takes a while to filter people into their proper locations... you need to have patience through July at least to see viable results from the changes....

[Cluster Fox]

D V Devnull, on 04 July 2020 - 01:59 AM, said:

...which has unfortunately relegated the game to only having the best experience for those who happen to be able to afford anything they want, and also can function & react quickly to everything that is going on during any given Match played.

True, sadly true with most multiplayer games. It was just made worse with the Tier reset.

For every "glorious" story of, I won all the games and made it into T1 in 60 games, there's probably 2-3 frustrated players who lost 20 games going towards T5 and left. Remember it's Zero-sum!

A good PSR system, a stable one, wouldn't need to reset everyone to T3 and create a mess for a month. People who don't belong in T1 would simply have went down naturally.

Spoiler: Very very unlikely to happen with the current system.

End of game needs to be zero-sum. But then the PSR move has to be accounted for per player, based on the PSR they already got.

Edited by Cluster Fox, 05 July 2020 - 07:32 AM.

[ghost1e]

ok, so I hope someone from PGI reads this and agrees with me

now that you've listened to the community and changed stuff, would it be much to ask for a community proposed balance patch?
I'm thinking about buffing mobility of KDK, AS7, TBR, NTG, DWF etc, some velocity nerfs to ATMs, some other weapon changes (SPL buff etc) and an IV4 quirk nerf

pls tell the community if you'd be interested in such a project, I'm sure there will be good proposals from the comp community again