74 replies to this topic

[The6thMessenger]

evilelrond, on 19 October 2020 - 11:34 PM, said:

why is there groups in qp? theres 3 other group modes already. theyre called comp que, faction play, and 2v2 solaris. no reason to have groups in qp too, especially when sync dropping is already a thing.

They tried doing that to get more matches out of the bleeding playerbase. I reckon they just made it bleed more.

[Bud Crue]

evilelrond, on 19 October 2020 - 11:34 PM, said:

why is there groups in qp? theres 3 other group modes already. theyre called comp que, faction play, and 2v2 solaris. no reason to have groups in qp too, especially when sync dropping is already a thing.

Why?

Because when GQ was getting bad via the nominal rate of player loss,a new game called MW5 was released, and many of the casual and consistent MWO players left en masse to go play MW5. That made wait times, especially out side of NA prime time untenable. PGI abandoned GQ for a time and then brought it back with a very short lived 8v8 format, but even then wait times were only acceptable during prime time and even then if you had an odd number group it sometimes took a long time to get matches. So then many of us beseeched PGI to provide GQ with an opt in function to allow solo players that were willing to join groups, to do so as a matter of choice. As is often the case when PGI is given a suggestion from its players, PGI (Paul in this case) said that No, that won't work, as solo players don't want to play with groups. And so, instead of giving solo players a choice to play with groups, it was decided to kill group queue, and add four man groups to the solo queue; thereby forcing those same solo players that "don't want to play with groups"...to play with groups.

That dear friends is how the mess of soup queue was born.

Honestly, I think given the decline on MW5 play, I think if they brought back 8v8 GQ now, even without the solo opt in option (though I still think that would be the ideal), and of course take groups out of the solo queue, both queues would be more viable now than either were a year and a half ago.

Edited by Bud Crue, 20 October 2020 - 02:18 AM.

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

imo you can't 'blame' MW5 for the decline of MWO-numbers.

one is PVE, the other PVP, so they target (and attract) different types of people. the decline of MWO has been there for years; it was just accelerated A LOT by PGI just not caring anymore, coupled with their (then) latest attempts to kill off factionplay a bit more.
many people couldn't bring themselves to play anymore because of that; that doesn't mean we all play MW5 now (I don't).


I miss the days of -good- factionplay, I miss dropping WITH buddies AGAINST buddies (read: 24+ people hanging out in teamspeak with friendly banter between the matches). MW5 isn't a substitute for that. hanging out in soup-queue, getting sour there, isn't either.

Edited by Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, 20 October 2020 - 05:33 AM.

[Belorion]

Monkey Lover, on 29 September 2020 - 10:56 PM, said:

There hasn't been close games in a few years. You only see teams because there is only a few hundred people playing anymore.

See that high of 2018? Thats when they stopped updating the game.

I believe they said 10K players at any given time.

[C E Dwyer]

What Bud Said.

His Memory is clearly better than mine, but yes, this was the path that lead to the merger.

[C E Dwyer]

Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, on 20 October 2020 - 05:31 AM, said:

imo you can't 'blame' MW5 for the decline of MWO-numbers. one is PVE, the other PVP, so they target (and attract) different types of people. the decline of MWO has been there for years; it was just accelerated A LOT by PGI just not caring anymore, coupled with their (then) latest attempts to kill off factionplay a bit more. many people couldn't bring themselves to play anymore because of that; that doesn't mean we all play MW5 now (I don't). I miss the days of -good- factionplay, I miss dropping WITH buddies AGAINST buddies (read: 24+ people hanging out in teamspeak with friendly banter between the matches). MW5 isn't a substitute for that. hanging out in soup-queue, getting sour there, isn't either.

Actually yes you can.

I've played PvP under duress, and supported it with my wallet far longer, with far more than I thought I would.
only reason I play a few games of MWO from time to time is that MW5 merc is arguably worse than this.

MW5's only saving graces are there is a MoD system, which allows the better qualifed community members to make the game better, because their not shackled [Redacted].

The other is your play isn't ruined by endless bitchin on coms, and dumb moves even a bot wouldn't make which have become standard in M.W.O.

[GARION26]

Heavy Money, on 06 October 2020 - 03:26 PM, said:

I started playing less than a month ago. Having a great time. I came to check out the forums for the first time, and its full of doom and gloom! Maybe it was better back in the day, but as a new player, I'm left scratching my head about some of the complaints.

I mostly play with a couple friends at a time. Sometimes we're a 4 man. I have not really experienced the effect of getting stomped by premades, nor of really stomping people. Maybe I'm just new, but the other people I play with are not. Generally we find that our lance can't save a bad team from a good team. We often score very well while the rest of our team crumbles. I've never seen a single 8 or 12 man premade (at least, not of the same unit tag.)

One of the things I like about this game is that, while there are obviously mechs that are better than others, the main deciding factor in games is team cohesion and people making the right tactical choices, not if some mechs differ by a few % in firepower or durability. It leaves room to try out different builds and variants. Its not like lots of games where if you don't show up in the best meta build, you might as well not show up at all. I realize this is likely more of an issue in competitive play (it always is) but there's plenty of non-comp play going on from what I've seen.

And what's the big deal about nascar? Are people not supposed to move around or try to push flanks? Why do people get so upset about this?

I've played six months and I feel much the same as you. I really enjoy this game for what it is.

I'm Tier 5 and play with my even worse 9 year old son in a group - we love playing together. We aren't dominating any matches when we play together.
Match quality seems the same to me as earlier in my career vs now.

If folks aren't enjoying the game - I totally understand leaving the game. Not sure why it's productive to stay on the forum and complain about a game people aren't playing anymore.

It's not Mechwarrior 2, or 3, or 4 and it's not HBS Battletech or tabletop battletech (all of which I played) . It's a first person PVP shooter with teams of people often of quite varying skill levels. Let it be what it is and enjoy it (or not and give up on int)

[The pessimistic optimist]

GARION26, on 20 October 2020 - 09:23 AM, said:

I've played six months and I feel much the same as you. I really enjoy this game for what it is.

I'm Tier 5 and play with my even worse 9 year old son in a group - we love playing together. We aren't dominating any matches when we play together.
Match quality seems the same to me as earlier in my career vs now.

If folks aren't enjoying the game - I totally understand leaving the game. Not sure why it's productive to stay on the forum and complain about a game people aren't playing anymore.

It's not Mechwarrior 2, or 3, or 4 and it's not HBS Battletech or tabletop battletech (all of which I played) . It's a first person PVP shooter with teams of people often of quite varying skill levels. Let it be what it is and enjoy it (or not and give up on int)

I don't expect it too be table top but I want them to try to stay true to what Mechwarrior is post to be an adaptation of Battletech. So I am fine with the fiddling with weapon values and other stuff to make the game balanced and playable but stay true to what those values were trying to simulate. I not stuck on numbers just what those numbers were trying to represent

Edited by SirSmokes, 20 October 2020 - 10:45 AM.

[Bobdolemite]

GARION26, on 20 October 2020 - 09:23 AM, said:

I've played six months and I feel much the same as you. I really enjoy this game for what it is.

Just as an FYI to newer players like the above (and others in lower tiers): Low tier gameplay is actually fun (or at least it was the last time I experienced it). You can field a variety of builds, use fun tactics like backstabs and flanks, harassing, scouting etc. You can actually be given a chance to try to learn about how to shoot where to move etc. its still not a cake walk of course, but it is VASTLY different than T1 play.

(contained my thoughts in a spoiler so as not to blow up the thead)

Spoiler

Tier 1 is rarely fun (IMO) since the addition of soup qeue. You have groups both good and bad who sway matches into 12-0 (or close to it) on a regular basis. The spawns and tonnage are completely broken (slowbie assaults in alpha lance on the wrong side of map etc), lazy tactics (IE Nascar every round), groups who refuse to communicate outside of private comms, and being shoe horned into a small selection of mechs and weapons in order to compete.

I have been playing this game since the spider was a new mech, back in predator vision days (god that was fun lol) and rolled with every change good and bad. Despite loving this game for years and having spent 100's of dollars I havent queued a match in over a month. In fact due to a recent comp issue I had to re-install windows (which removes all games etc), I didnt even notice MWO was missing until yesterday. This is HIGHLY unusual for me, especially while an event is running.

While I appreciate the effort and time that PGI spent on re-evaluating the state of the game, I think the queue merge was a fantastic failure. It has already and is continuing to drive away solo and casual players which make up 90 ish percent of the player base. And the worst part is (as others have pointed out) most people knew this was a bad idea and actively tried to stop it. I am just amazed that after their player statistics started to drop that they didnt think to fix/change something.

When they merged solo queue and reset tiers (June 30th), I actually had some really great / fun matches for a while. I worked my way back up to Tier 1 as a solo player by July 12th using mostly: Urbie K9 5 MPL, NVA-S Lazer Vomit, and WHMR-BW 3 RAC 2 4 Mlas, and was very proud of myself (as I am not a good player by any stretch). As the weeks went on though the games got worse and worse as tier 1 settled. It began to take longer to find games and the quality of those matches went straight to hades. Then the once fun and engaging events that PGI had been so good about doing during this lockdown started to feel lazy and un-fun. Especially the last one, having to play certain chassis in this meta at tier 1 was more frustrating than it was fun. (reffering to the champions and heroes events respectively, I had a blast with all the others)

I do not want to be all negative though, I want this game to be a success. Not sure if its already too far gone population wise but re-instating solo queue would IMO be the first step. The stats clearly show that everything is in decline, I think its beyond time to end this little experiment. Beyond having a working solo queue I think they need to talk to comp players and faction play lovers to see what needs to change in order to make those modes more appealing. This whole debacle is the result of those two modes not offering enough to keep comp players engaged. There should be healthy options for both solo/casual and hardcore comp players.... I do not think this is impossible either.. lets hope the addition of a new Community Manager and a promise of development will get PGI to listen.

Pls fix the game =P

Edited by Bobdolemite, 20 October 2020 - 12:36 PM.

[martian]

Bobdolemite, on 20 October 2020 - 12:11 PM, said:

Stuff ...

Nicely said.

[Thorqemada]

Belorion, on 20 October 2020 - 06:52 AM, said:

I believe they said 10K players at any given time.

10k unique players a day!

Thats avg. ~416 per hour...

[Hunka Junk]

Bud Crue, on 20 October 2020 - 02:15 AM, said:

I think if they brought back 8v8 GQ now,

Why not a 4v4 queue considering the smaller population?

You've always had high-tier people make second or third accounts to go play in the lower tiers, but letting them drop as a lance is the antithesis of a pickup game.

If you went to a basketball court in a park where people were playing pickup, you'd look like a real tool showing up with a team of five.

I say 4v4 means the queue is shorter. Just choose smaller maps, or hell make it a random chunk of a random map. Groups fight groups. Randoms fight randoms.

[General Solo]

Personally I like 4 v 4, however you and I may be in the minority.

Thing is Long. But its guid so you should totally read it, devs too.

TLDR: If you been reading my posts of late you can guess, aka MMing.....wait wait dont switch off, it a master piece, true, story....Here's the opening scroll....Once upoin a time in a G......

IMO they, the community despite whats said don't really want "open competitive"
And this is perfectly normal.......Strikes Back

Sports and MWO's history can give us an insight.

Spoiler

What is "open competitive"?

Look at Open Classes in motorsport for an idea.
Essentially means an unlimited class.

Their is no leveling or equalization of the playing field by equipment, fitness level,skill or some other metric.

I will use an example of motor car racing.

Most car racing has equalization of the playing field by equipment.
F1 uses F1 cars, NASCAR uses uses NASCAR's, Ride on lawn mower racing uses Ride on lawn mowers etc, but in an Open Competitive Race you can bring any equipment you want.
Ride on lawn mover vs NASCAR vs F1 is allowed.

Naturally only the top 1% have a chance of winning.

Guess what! Their are not many of these types of open competative races is their?

By far the majority of races use a system of rules designed to level the playing field in some way , usually by equipment in motor sport.
Their are many classes of motor sport and Open Class is the least popular by far.

Probably because to have a chance of winning you got to be 1% and the other 99% are not too keen on that. Its a fact.

Just look at the popularity of classes and divisions and other forms of leveling or equalization of the playing field in all sports.
Boxing - Divisons
Soccor - Divisions etc

Sports have a lot of good ideas for match making in MWO as sports and MWO have a lot of things in common.

Lets look at the facts.

All the "open competitive" queues have fared the worst

For example in order of "open competitiveness" and by some free keen coincidence level of inactivity, go figure, just like sports

The list is.....drumroll..... Faction scouting 4v4, Solaris, Group queue , Faction queue.

All those queues are doing it tough because of the reason in the second sentence, IMO they community despite whats said don't really want "open competitive"
Same as in the sporting world, open class is the least popular, ie their are less of them open classes compared to other classes.

Maybe with functional matchmaking these queues would be less "openly competitive" and more level and thus more popular but like in sports world from local level to apex level.
Apex dont do Local and Local don't do Apex in sports, unless for charity or sumting.

I say this as facts show us.

People don't want open competitive that's why all the open competitive queues died and open classes are the least popular in the sporting world.
Have a think about it.

Now you may say but in the hey day of MWO we didn't have this problem.
I say rubbish as in the hey day we had not had a mech title in a decade.
A starving man will eat crap but once satiated will not put up with it, crap no moar.

Now you may say but low population.........

I say sports can help give idea's once more.

What sports?

Playground sports! They have low population but can still make fairly level teams.

How?

Just like a playground game their are spots to fill on each team.

Choose two Captains, they will be seed/leader for each group. Use Highest PSR solo or groups for seed/Captain on each side.

Their are 12 spots to fill on each team.

The over all logic is that each Captain (Match maker) takes turns each selection round to pick up the next highest PSR teammate/group available.
This way both sides have a chance choosing the next best player/group available to ensure a level palying field.

How do you measure level playing field, I'd say PSR delta between teams untill someone comes up with something better.
Works in an Ideal a world.



With groups well they can throw the above scheme out of whack due to the large skill gap and thus PSR delta some groups can create.

So working with the first system which works under expected team PSR delta conditions, in unexpected team PSR delta conditions I propose:

If a group is seed of Team1, use highest PSR Group or solo to balance PSR total so delta is small.
Teams take turns selecting the next highest PSR pilot/group available.

But if PSR delta conditions RUNWAY and PSR delta is large and getting larger give the weaker team the next highest PSR pilot/group which ever is higher
and give the stronger team the weakest PSR pilot/group which ever is lower, from the selection pool that selection round.

Repeat until PSR delta between teams equalizes. That's a rough sketch start. Not the full flow chart .



Adding content to MWO to fix its problems is like an open class motor race between a ride lawn mover and NASCAR and a F1 car. No not the fact that NASCAR will win.
I talking about that adding content is like changing the ride lawn mover and NASCAR and a F1 car from 2019 models to 2020 models, or changing the circuit they race on.

Still not gonna make it compete with other forms of racing in terms of success.

And matchmaking is just a bunch of logical rules to level the playing field, just some instructions on how to run things a little bit of code.

The important thing is that the rules are good rules which level the playing field just like sports, as sports and games with level the playing fields are more successful, A Simple Fact

Its the foundation of the success of many sports and imo games too.
MWO can learn from this.

Plus a lil code of well thought out rules to level the playing field I think is much cheaper than a silly ole map,

Don't get me wrong, maps/mechs are nice unless open competitiveness is making the game unpopular due to reasons.

300 The worlds not Flat IQ on the case

Edited by OZHomerOZ, 21 October 2020 - 04:24 AM.

[Hunka Junk]

Here's the problem with captains picking teams.

MWO units will hide their affiliations and pick each other to group up.

Group play belongs in group play. Puggers belong with puggers.

If group play is dead, then fix group play instead of the solution being to kill quickplay by turning it into group play practice with randoms to shoot.

[General Solo]

Yes the Captains are actually human players/groups but.......
Matchmaker picks the Captains and picks their team on the Captain and teams behalf to ensure a level playing field.
Groups cannot hide their PSR from match maker that all we need.

Yes having mixed queue is borked I agree.

Just trying to make do with what we have.

Hopefully if the population picks up we can unmerge the queues but we gotta get to that stage.

This is why I say. coz I'm try to get their.

I don't wanna wait another decade or forever for the next mech tittle, gotta save this one.

Edited by OZHomerOZ, 21 October 2020 - 04:51 AM.