149 replies to this topic

[RRAMIREZ]

Heavy Money, on 06 October 2020 - 08:14 PM, said:

TLDR;
The core problem is how to make MWO profitable again. In the past, it was based on releasing new mechs and relying on people to buy them. But now there are tons of mechs, and the problem is keeping the game engaging and regrow playerbase. Perhaps find new things for people to spend money on who already own lots of mechs.

Heavy Money, on 06 October 2020 - 08:33 PM, said:

Of course, I'm also worried about spending money on a game with a deteriorating player base

It's difficult to spend money without trust on what is going on or what will occur
It's difficult to own money with a player population that is shrinking (inducing other problem like mixing skill level so much)*
vicious circle...

Whitout an ambicious vision to hype and grow population, and solving trust issues (follow up communications on PSR changes, to take last exemple, were not the kind that grow confidence) not sure that the circle can be broken.

My heart would love to get this "ambicious vision" announcement
My brain is more cautious...

Edited by RRAMIREZ, 07 October 2020 - 01:02 AM.

[The6thMessenger]

Heavy Money, on 07 October 2020 - 12:56 AM, said:

They talk about why MW5 can't just get multiplayer in the podcast. Its the same reason an engine upgrade isn't easy: All the netcode basically has to be built from scratch. Its not easy to just bolt this stuff on.

Eh well, MWO is lost then.

[Bud Crue]

Navid A1, on 06 October 2020 - 10:04 PM, said:

You want money?

Then consider this:

- Make a starter pack for $20.
- Include 8 good mechs in it (2 good mechs per class, clan and IS.).
- Make sure 2 of those 8 mechs are hero mechs.
- include enough GSP to instantly master 2 mechs
- include a bunch of Cbills to fully deck 2 mechs
- Include at least 10 colors covering a wide spectrum
- include 2 camo patterns for the mechs in the pack.


THAT will sell.

Great idea, but I think a big problem with this is that PGI has never shown any comprehension of what makes a mech "good" beyond their super secret internal data points (paraphrases from history: "our data shows the Timberwolf is the top performing 75 ton mech in the game, even at the competitive level"; the "K2 is a clear over performer and should probably have its internal structure nerfed", "the Deathstrike is not a top level assault mech according to our data," etc.), and worse when a mech is good, they historically nerf it into mediocrity and cause the purchaser to lose faith in that purchase and thus future purchases as well (e.g. why purchase anything with real money if PGI just makes my purchase have less enjoyment value after the fact?).

If they do nothing else (and honestly, I expect this latest effort to engage the community will fail to lead to much in the way of new content, or further development within the next 5 years) I think that this (balance) is the sort of thing where they need, I mean really need, to cede control or at least objectively and transparently rely on the competitive community to make balance decisions, so that ancillary decisions, like what to offer the potential new player as an enticement to spend real money is based on real in-game experiences. Otherwise that lovely feeling of bait and switch is going to continue to fester and they are back to relying on fading nostalgia to keep the game alive; and that apparently isn't cutting it anymore.

[Hunka Junk]

We want to generate revenue translation:

We flopped MW5, which was supposed to replace you, so now we're back to bleed you because none of the big players want anything to do with us.

[The6thMessenger]

Hunka Junk, on 07 October 2020 - 02:20 AM, said:

We want to generate revenue translation:

We flopped MW5, which was supposed to replace you, so now we're back to bleed you because none of the big players want anything to do with us.

If they didn't acquired Epic Exclusivity, they might have better sales.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 07 October 2020 - 05:55 AM.

[Buster Machine 0]

The starter mechpack concept is an excellent idea and needs to be added to the MWO steam store page ASAP, additionally a reward in MWO for beating the MW5 campaign will increase interest in both franchises and bring pilots to MWO as the franchise's "endgame". Perhaps a MW5 Specific chassis variant of some sort or a feature to select any MW5 mech you own and have and have it imported into MWO with an (L) modifier and c-bill bonus. (Limit one per copy of MW5 of course)

Also the concern that other players are less than legitimate is causing players to ragequit the game. Implementing a feature that 99% of all successful arena shooters have is long overdue and will go very far in instilling player confidence in the legitimacy of MWO and increasing player retention rates.

Adding VR headset head tracking would also allow this game to compete with Vox Machinae and is not too far off from the TrackIR feature that MWO currently supports.

And finally I've been seeing a trend of cadets dropping in "T1" matches lately. This indicates that MWO is below the critical population threshold for proper matchmaker seeding especially in off hours and is definitely driving away new players that are getting stomped in QP. The matchmaker needs to seed new player or T5 matches properly or all it's doing is turning people away from the game.

Edited by ChenGGez, 07 October 2020 - 04:09 AM.

[AnAnachronismAlive]

InnerSphereNews, on 05 October 2020 - 10:59 AM, said:

Together we can take a hard look at how Piranha Games can continue to improve the game, the experience, communication, and if practical, build on the resources available for continued development over the coming years.

Really hate myself for thinking that way, but - after having listened to the podcast - a (visionary) re-boot of some sort (and I fear that is what a lot of people hope for or what could excite them to spend a significant amount of money) seems to be unlikely.

While I like some of the smart propositions regarding starter packs or cross-game-incentives very much, I don't see how or by whom noteworthy changes could be implemented without hard/proper coding!

Without a general vision or at least new maps or fresh / overhauled game-modes this announcement might end up as a flash in the pan.

Navid A1, on 06 October 2020 - 03:06 PM, said:

@Daeron
One thing that will greatly help with feedback is to identify with the developers about their scope as in what aspects are open for discussion?

Edited by AnAnachronismAlive, 07 October 2020 - 05:08 AM.

[RickySpanish]

Navid A1 and Heavy Money might as well be the only replies to the thread. It's all about the new players now; you'll not get a great deal more money out of vets and that's fine. The new player experience is what matters, and the game is extremely punishing to them with respect to the lack of guidance on 'Mech choice. New players have no understanding of what constitutes a good build or even what they are best at playing, the cadet system awards raw money but that is easily and naively spent. New players ought to be able to do more with the trial 'Mechs - perhaps even customize them for free and rent-to-own. 'Mechs should have a general skill rating as well, PGI know individual 'Mech stats and the PSR of the pilots that use them, it should be possible to come up with something reasonable.

[The6thMessenger]

RickySpanish, on 07 October 2020 - 05:41 AM, said:

Navid A1 and Heavy Money might as well be the only replies to the thread. It's all about the new players now; you'll not get a great deal more money out of vets and that's fine. The new player experience is what matters, and the game is extremely punishing to them with respect to the lack of guidance on 'Mech choice. New players have no understanding of what constitutes a good build or even what they are best at playing, the cadet system awards raw money but that is easily and naively spent. New players ought to be able to do more with the trial 'Mechs - perhaps even customize them for free and rent-to-own. 'Mechs should have a general skill rating as well, PGI know individual 'Mech stats and the PSR of the pilots that use them, it should be possible to come up with something reasonable.

I don't know how to retain new players if the vets are going to just seal-club them to oblivion, mech choices be damned.

[Nightbird]

Navid A1, on 06 October 2020 - 10:04 PM, said:

CROSS-POST from the other thread:



I noticed Russ brought up the issue of rescale in the podcast and how they did volumetric scaling as community wanted and then according to him then hated it because things got huge.

That on itself is an answer to the question.

Volumetric scaling only refers to the relative size of mechs with regards to eachother. Problem was that PGI took the largest mech in the game as a reference and then enlarged the rest of the roster to match that.

That is what went wrong.
Light mechs were fine were they were at. Heavier mechs were just gigantic compared to them, a volumetric scaling in many people's minds was those heavier mechs getting smaller, not the other way around.

Even on the concept of pure volumetric scaling, there are massive mistakes in there, specially between 20 and 25 ton mechs and 35 ton mechs and above. I do 3D modeling as a hobby and at the same time work as a PhD in engineering, and I can tell you that there is nothing Volumetric between the proportions of a 25ton commando and a 35 ton panther, and that is measurement to the last cubic pixel. Even assuming constant mass and volume for the cockpit, and such... the proportions are so out of whack.

In the podcast, Phil almost brought it up. The major reason larger mechs are so easy to pinpoint is that they are so damn gigantic. And the fact that their sheer size does not allow them to use pieces of cover effectively, even at all. For example, an Atlas should really be 77% of what it is now. Choosing the commando as a reference.

I recently did a mod for Mechwarrior 5 (MW5 Reloaded) which also included a proper volumetric scaling with the commando as a reference (you can give it a look). I can have a pretty good guess why the volumetric scaling was done in the opposite direction. As you shrink the size of the bigger mechs, you need to have faster animations for them (since linear speed should remain the same) and animation team was busy doing something else at the time.


If PGI wants to ever brings re-scale back to the table... many... MANY would love to see it done in the other direction (basing the reference on the smaller end, rather than the already gigantic ones)













In the podcast Russ also wanted to focus on things that can generate revenue.

First off, let's make one thing clear, MWO is in its 8th year now. So far the monetization model was based on a collect'em all approach with mechs.

It has been a long grind. For most it has been years. But we need to focus on new players that come in.

Right now a new player that is coming in gets to have 4 mechbays only. The usual approach is that the player will go through the cadet phase and often blows the cbills from that on a completely useless chassis with a bad build which struggles to perform in matches.

The ones who do not quit at the moment face a choice... to buy a mechpack or not.
And sadly this is where the current MWO store fails, as it has no option to allow a paying new player to hit the ground running or save on grind time.
The entire mechpack options offer three almost identical mechs for 20$ (btw, three variant model is based on a skill system that is no longer in the game). With $20 you can get major AAA games 8 years after their release, while in MWO it gives you practically NOTHING!
No sane person would spend that money to get something that can be bought in the game after a few days of playing.


In order to revitalize your store, you need to think about how the game dynamics and content releases has changed. I cut the BS and go right to the point.

You want money?

Then consider this:

- Make a starter pack for $20.
- Include 8 good mechs in it (2 good mechs per class, clan and IS.).
- Make sure 2 of those 8 mechs are hero mechs.
- include enough GSP to instantly master 2 mechs
- include a bunch of Cbills to fully deck 2 mechs
- Include at least 10 colors covering a wide spectrum
- include 2 camo patterns for the mechs in the pack.


THAT will sell.

You can even have higher Tier starter packs for $30 and $40 with bigger gains.

In a game that is in its 8th year you should be thinking about how to bring a new account up to a point to look like how a one year account would look like.
All the mech collectors have collected all the mechs and their wallets dried up... think wider... think more open.




Of course... it would be more challenging to find something a MWO veteran player would spend money on.
On that regard, I would refer to myself.
I have almost 500 mechs, most of them are fully mastered. I have about 100k MC, more than 3.5 Billion Cbills. almost all the colors.
And I really find it hard to think of something... perhaps some brainstorming would be needed on this front.

https://mwomercs.com...metric-scaling/

False, PGI did not do volumetric scaling. Stop spreading this misinformation please.

[Brauer]

The6thMessenger, on 07 October 2020 - 05:45 AM, said:

I don't know how to retain new players if the vets are going to just seal-club them to oblivion, mech choices be damned.

Keeping new players out of matches with people who know how to play the game well would work. If you throw new players into a mixed queue they're gonna get smashed, that's just the way it is.

Edited by Brauer, 07 October 2020 - 10:26 AM.

[Navid A1]

Nightbird, on 07 October 2020 - 06:04 AM, said:

https://mwomercs.com...metric-scaling/

False, PGI did not do volumetric scaling. Stop spreading this misinformation please.

True which is mentioned in the same post you quoted:

Navid A1, on 06 October 2020 - 10:04 PM, said:

...
Even on the concept of pure volumetric scaling, there are massive mistakes in there, specially between 20 and 25 ton mechs and 35 ton mechs and above. I do 3D modeling as a hobby and at the same time work as a PhD in engineering, and I can tell you that there is nothing Volumetric between the proportions of a 25ton commando and a 35 ton panther, and that is measurement to the last cubic pixel. Even assuming constant mass and volume for the cockpit, and such... the proportions are so out of whack.

...

I have also done a mod for MW5 purely based on volumetric scaling... with exact cubic pixel measurement.

[The6thMessenger]

Brauer, on 07 October 2020 - 06:54 AM, said:

Keeping new players out if matches with people who know how to play the game well would work. If you throw new players into a mixed queue they're gonna get smashed, that's just the way it is.

Well, that's the catch-22. Newbies are forced to play with vets because the playerbase is dwindling. Seems like we might as well just make a new game so that new people will flock to it. Hell, just build an Online Multiplayer with MW5.

We could possibly aim for 8v8s and 4v4s instead of the usual 12v12s, might increase the gameplay quality, of course the 4-man drops will ruin it.

PGI also has a bit of AI down, granted on Unreal Engine. If they can build AI with varying difficulty, they can use that as filler. That being said, I am not that convinced of PGI's ability to make good AI on account of MW5 exactly having dumb ones, so much so that even your own allies are against you.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 07 October 2020 - 07:01 AM.

[Nightbird]

Navid A1, on 07 October 2020 - 06:57 AM, said:

True which is mentioned in the same post you quoted:

I have also done a mod for MW5 purely based on volumetric scaling... with exact cubic pixel measurement.

I'm guilty of reading only the first few paragraphs lol. I'll def try your mod if I ever get MW5 (from Steam, for 5$)

Edited by Nightbird, 07 October 2020 - 07:29 AM.

[CFC Conky]

Navid A1, on 06 October 2020 - 10:04 PM, said:

...

You want money?

Then consider this:

- Make a starter pack for $20.
- Include 8 good mechs in it (2 good mechs per class, clan and IS.).
- Make sure 2 of those 8 mechs are hero mechs.
- include enough GSP to instantly master 2 mechs
- include a bunch of Cbills to fully deck 2 mechs
- Include at least 10 colors covering a wide spectrum
- include 2 camo patterns for the mechs in the pack.


THAT will sell.

You can even have higher Tier starter packs for $30 and $40 with bigger gains.

In a game that is in its 8th year you should be thinking about how to bring a new account up to a point to look like how a one year account would look like.
...

At this point, barring a major structural change like a new game engine, any new revenue schemes are short-term solutions.

I really like your idea Navid, these days new players should get a boost because they are so far behind the power curve when it comes to mechs, bays, MC, XP, GSP, C-bills, etc. It bothers me not at all that a new player can purchase stuff for less than what I paid after all this time.

Another thing that could be useful for generating revenue is the Tournament Supporter Pack, or whatever it was called. A boost in c-bill/xp earnings, some skins, cockpit items, and an additional bonus for completing events was pretty good value for $10. You can call it something else and adjust the validity time depending on the price.

I purchased the Solaris Pack because it was good value for the $. That should be the determining factor when selling stuff and at the moment the value just isn't there.

Good hunting,
CFC Conky

[East Indy]

Solaris doesn't work because it's a literal interpretation of BattleTech's Solaris 7, which in turn was based on a misunderstanding of Roman gladiating.

Believe it or not, gladiators were separated into classes, uncannily like characters in fighting games. They had strictly consistent tools and armor, but most importantly were matched up with the same tight regulation. Why? Balance, because it made for much more interesting battles.

Solaris needs controlled variety, not Battlebot fantasies, because we know that competition weeds out creativity fast, leaving skilled copycats who sometimes pretend they invented the build they use 90% of the time.

So what you do is:

1. Start each new season highlighting one weight class
2. Pick 7 'Mechs, each from a different chassis
3. Take build suggestions from the community as done with Champions
4. Let voting function as survival of the fittest as players determine what's competitive with what
5. Make vote winners that season's available 'Mech choices
6. See what happens when players select from more comparable entries

[CFC Conky]

East Indy, on 07 October 2020 - 09:44 AM, said:

Solaris doesn't work because it's a literal interpretation of BattleTech's Solaris 7, which in turn was based on a misunderstanding of Roman gladiating.

Believe it or not, gladiators were separated into classes, uncannily like characters in fighting games. They had strictly consistent tools and armor, but most importantly were matched up with the same tight regulation. Why? Balance, because it made for much more interesting battles.

Solaris needs controlled variety, not Battlebot fantasies, because we know that competition weeds out creativity fast, leaving skilled copycats who sometimes pretend they invented the build they use 90% of the time.

So what you do is:

1. Start each new season highlighting one weight class
2. Pick 7 'Mechs, each from a different chassis
3. Take build suggestions from the community as done with Champions
4. Let voting function as survival of the fittest as players determine what's competitive with what
5. Make vote winners that season's available 'Mech choices
6. See what happens when players select from more comparable entries

Why not go one step further and let Solaris pick the mechs from a list of chassis/builds, assign them to the players and then have at it? Make the rewards rich enough to attract players. Of course I have no idea if it is even possible to implement this in the current game.

Good hunting,
CFC Conky

[D U N E]

I'm a Mechwarrior Online specific Mechwarrior player - 1,2,3 etc. don't matter to me.
Personally, I feel while monetizing older players are important when possible, you need to create a better environment for new players, as new players have the potential to restart the monetization schemes that the older players have already participated in - as such, I feel like MWO needs a actual starter pack for new players to purchase to enable them to become just as competitive in game as every other player they may face.

Very simply, I think you should introduce new mech chassis, similar to how the champion mechs existed, containing: fun, accessible, and competitive builds on existing chassis in game that enable new players to be able to participate in QP/FP without being a burden to their team, making the early cycle more fulfilling. Working with higher skill players to find out what these mechs are, and the best way to build them to make them easy to use, while also promoting skilled use and positioning to make them feel good to use. Though this should be good value for money from a person with no connection to the game, as well as have some other items, e.g. GSP, perhaps a PDF on how to skill mechs well, etc.

For older players, you could make a subscription service to enable pilots to own every/a-lot of the cosmetic items in the game (Though this should not be the only feature of it). Make it affordable that someone will want to pay for it, perhaps start making more items that also look good/interesting on mechs and create a reason to purchase it in the first place. I bet many mechwarriors would give their arm/leg to get a top-hat for their mechs - and for players that have over 600 mechs, it's simply not worth it to purchase bolt-ons on all their mechs, so it incentives purchasing this for value - though you will likely need more interesting items that fit the mechs better to make this seem fully worth while for players.

[Heavy Money]

Thinking more about what would have helped if I didn't have a group of friends to help get me in:

• It would help if there was an intro video series/tip series or something. A problem a lot of new players have is not really understanding how the game is played, so they just rush in and die. Or they don't understand that its not really viable to just run at one target and try to shoot him till he dies, like you would in many shooters. A lot of things didn't really click for me until I started watching Baradul and other streamers like him. Having links to stuff like that in some new player portal/page or something would help.
  
• A walkthrough of the mechlab interface would also help a lot. (Let's be honest, the UI isn't great.) A quick overview explaining about slots, what it means to run an XL engine, ghost heat, etc would help a lot. There's a lot of hidden 'gotchas' that ruin things for new players, like constantly shutting down from ghost heat and not understanding what's going on. Having a tip window with a quick intro and links to further explanation pop up the first time you access the mechlab would do the job on a lot of this stuff.
  
• Trial mechs are already a good idea. It would be good if they had nice, optimized loadouts. The community could help design them. But more importantly, it'd be great if they had descriptions explaining the role of the mech/loadout and how it should be played. A blurb of a few sentences should handle it. Such as "This mech is a long range missile boat. Stick with your team for protection from light mechs and provide fire support when they provide target locks."
  
• Links to community resources such as guides, wiki, and discord server should be a big button on the home screen. Put a call to action to encourage people to use the resources and find others to play with.
  
• Make some sort of recruitment incentive program where new players can enter the names of up to 4 people who referred them to the game. Give the cadet a bonus for doing this, and the referer(s) a big bonus. Make this something significant like MC, and perhaps a custom cosmetic for people who bring in a larger number of people.
  
• Similarly, give bonuses to people who form groups with Cadets. We should want veteran players to take cadets under their wing ASAP, even if its for selfish reasons. Currently when people see a cadet in their team, they groan. Instead, they should be sending friend requests and invites for groups.
  
• Similarly, groups consisting of both high and low tier players could get bonus rewards to incentivize people to not always run their A list guys and help out some newer or less skilled people. (Let's not forget that plenty of people have played for a long time and still aren't super good. They should still be able to have fun too, and we don't want them getting demoralized and quitting.)
  
• Daily/Weekly challenges could help people keep wanting to get games in even if they aren't winning, and so help mitigate people quitting due to demoralization and feeling like they aren't progressing.
  
• Overall the big problem is keeping new players from giving up, or feeling like they can't get anywhere. Part of the reason MWO is a fun game is because it has a high skill ceiling for both individuals and groups. Part of the fun is feeling like you're improving and getting better. But this is a double edged sword because its harsh on new players. This is partly a problem of mindset. If you can present upfront that this game is hard, but that it's worth the difficult climb because you feel a sense of accomplishment and its a ton of fun once you're decent, then that'll help. You may not ever attract Fortnite casuals, but those people weren't going to drop lots of money into the game anyway. You want to sell the game as being a high skill environment of committed people, because those are the people who will keep playing and feel like they get value out of the money they put in. In other words, this is partly a marketing thing, and appealing to people's competitive mindset. Part of what motivated me early on was, again, watching Baradul and being like "So this is what a good player looks like. I bet I can do that with some work." (Of course I'm not that good yet, but I've come a long way quickly.)

Edited by Heavy Money, 07 October 2020 - 12:32 PM.

[LordNothing]

Heavy Money, on 06 October 2020 - 09:46 PM, said:

Well they admitted that Solaris flopped in the podcast.

it wasnt the solaris i wanted. i wanted what mw4/mwll had. instead we got dueling. also team dueling which practically nobody did because forming groups of 2 is hard, there should have been a very minimalistic mm for that, not really an mm, just stick 2 randoms together so they can play 2v2. even then not much appeal. even the boltons were meh.

Edited by LordNothing, 07 October 2020 - 01:34 PM.