96 replies to this topic

[HolyGrail101]

[mod]Split discussion, origin here: The Great Psr Prophecy (With Graphs!)[/mod]

Brauer, on 01 July 2020 - 04:36 AM, said:

It all depends on what you mean by playing map and mode. If what you mean is running around the map and sitting on cap points without fighting you are not actually (in most cases) contributing that much. The reason for that is that taking opposing mechs off the field by fighting makes them less able to damage your mechs and play the map and mode. Very often cappers end up in a 5v1 or worse at the end. So objectively running around sitting on cap points is often not the most effective tactic AND it does not take a huge amount of skill or effort.

If you watch some high level competitive matches you will see that strong teams play the map and mode effectively, however that is much more about controlling areas of the map (including a few caps) than it is about running around sitting on points. Unfortunately, you will not see the teamwork or cohesion necessary for those types of strategies in QP (ok sometimes groups can do somewhat analogous things, but that's rare).

I disagree, I think that only riding around in the an OP Mech with OP guns, fine tuning your graphics settings outside the UI and or using scripts in order to speed fire your weapons is pretty pathetic and most of the "Competition" level and Faction players I hear boasting tend to do at least 2 out of those 3 things. Being High on the kill zone only matters if you can do it without Macro's, scripts and technical non cheating. Most units only seem to be "Runner's up" to real Comp play until they have to play for real.

As for your high level Comp play BS excuse of coarse 1 Guy controlling an entire unit will be more effective than 1 guy herding 12 cats in PUG play. Duh. It doesn't make other PUG play tactics invalid, everyone can already shoot everyone all game 17000 times or more like I have. I play for fun, feel free to be the 190th best guy in a video game that at over 2500 hours into I admit is kinda niche. You might be a better shot than me but I'm still a better pilot. Piloting doesn't script well I assume.

Edit: I forgot about ping bouncing, some Faction players like that too it seems.

Edited by Ekson Valdez, 19 July 2020 - 10:14 PM.

[Scout Derek]

HolyGrail101, on 18 July 2020 - 05:34 PM, said:

I disagree, I think that only riding around in the an OP Mech with OP guns, fine tuning your graphics settings outside the UI and or using scripts in order to speed fire your weapons is pretty pathetic and most of the "Competition" level and Faction players I hear boasting tend to do at least 2 out of those 3 things. Being High on the kill zone only matters if you can do it without Macro's, scripts and technical non cheating. Most units only seem to be "Runner's up" to real Comp play until they have to play for real.

As for your high level Comp play BS excuse of coarse 1 Guy controlling an entire unit will be more effective than 1 guy herding 12 cats in PUG play. Duh. It doesn't make other PUG play tactics invalid, everyone can already shoot everyone all game 17000 times or more like I have. I play for fun, feel free to be the 190th best guy in a video game that at over 2500 hours into I admit is kinda niche. You might be a better shot than me but I'm still a better pilot. Piloting doesn't script well I assume.

Edit: I forgot about ping bouncing, some Faction players like that too it seems.

>I play for fun

Something tells me you don't, but do tell yourself that in a pvp orientated game.

[HolyGrail101]

Scout Derek, on 18 July 2020 - 06:17 PM, said:

>I play for fun

Something tells me you don't, but do tell yourself that in a pvp orientated game.

I leave MWO occasionally when I find the fun lacking, I've been on hiatus to see if they made any effective changes for 2 weeks. Notice I didn't call out Every Comp player, faction player or unit (if the egg on some MWO Chad's face sticks). I also wasn't expecting to get slapped in the face after my original post was not exactly anger inducing enough to be told that my play style is pointless and that I have zero clue as to what I'm talking about or how to play the game.

[cougurt]

HolyGrail101, on 18 July 2020 - 05:34 PM, said:

I disagree, I think that only riding around in the an OP Mech with OP guns, fine tuning your graphics settings outside the UI and or using scripts in order to speed fire your weapons is pretty pathetic and most of the "Competition" level and Faction players I hear boasting tend to do at least 2 out of those 3 things. Being High on the kill zone only matters if you can do it without Macro's, scripts and technical non cheating. Most units only seem to be "Runner's up" to real Comp play until they have to play for real.

As for your high level Comp play BS excuse of coarse 1 Guy controlling an entire unit will be more effective than 1 guy herding 12 cats in PUG play. Duh. It doesn't make other PUG play tactics invalid, everyone can already shoot everyone all game 17000 times or more like I have. I play for fun, feel free to be the 190th best guy in a video game that at over 2500 hours into I admit is kinda niche. You might be a better shot than me but I'm still a better pilot. Piloting doesn't script well I assume.

Edit: I forgot about ping bouncing, some Faction players like that too it seems.

ah yes, the usual multitude of excuses and accusations from someone who is clearly Playing For Fun™.

[Brauer]

HolyGrail101, on 18 July 2020 - 05:34 PM, said:

I disagree, I think that only riding around in the an OP Mech with OP guns, fine tuning your graphics settings outside the UI and or using scripts in order to speed fire your weapons is pretty pathetic and most of the "Competition" level and Faction players I hear boasting tend to do at least 2 out of those 3 things. Being High on the kill zone only matters if you can do it without Macro's, scripts and technical non cheating. Most units only seem to be "Runner's up" to real Comp play until they have to play for real.

As for your high level Comp play BS excuse of coarse 1 Guy controlling an entire unit will be more effective than 1 guy herding 12 cats in PUG play. Duh. It doesn't make other PUG play tactics invalid, everyone can already shoot everyone all game 17000 times or more like I have. I play for fun, feel free to be the 190th best guy in a video game that at over 2500 hours into I admit is kinda niche. You might be a better shot than me but I'm still a better pilot. Piloting doesn't script well I assume.

Edit: I forgot about ping bouncing, some Faction players like that too it seems.

The list of things you claim high level comp players do is laughably bad. Macros/scripts are at best a side-grade when compared to human control and, imo, generally inferior to actually having control. Some players do tune their graphics settings outside of the ui, but this isn't strictly speaking required as far as I know, and I've done fairly well without touching that. And ping bouncing? What? You're pretty paranoid about this stuff and it shows you really don't understand the game when you claim macros are used extensively by strong players and claim they offer any advantage.

What are these other pug play tactics that you're claiming make you a better player than people who focus on fighting? The only times I've ever used a "script" in this game is when I run lock-in weapons and let PGI aim for me.

P.S I also play for fun. Engaging the enemy is fun. Winning is fun.

HolyGrail101, on 18 July 2020 - 06:59 PM, said:

I leave MWO occasionally when I find the fun lacking, I've been on hiatus to see if they made any effective changes for 2 weeks. Notice I didn't call out Every Comp player, faction player or unit (if the egg on some MWO Chad's face sticks). I also wasn't expecting to get slapped in the face after my original post was not exactly anger inducing enough to be told that my play style is pointless and that I have zero clue as to what I'm talking about or how to play the game.

Players have come out of the woodwork during discussions of changes to PSR or the match score formula seeking match score buffs to actions that simply do not drive wins as reliably as killing the enemy. Given that context I think it's worthwhile to push back against those arguments because if those types of changes are implemented they will push match score and PSR further away from representing skill, and they don't represent it that well to begin with.

[HolyGrail101]

cougurt, on 18 July 2020 - 07:59 PM, said:

ah yes, the usual multitude of excuses and accusations from someone who is clearly Playing For Fun™.

I clipped this off of one of a so called "Comp Player" a few months ago. Remember how I mentioned fine tuning the UI settings? It amazes me how much all the stat's wannabee's keep pretending stat's matter when they have to manipulate the entire range of settings they can without it being called cheating yet still telling folks how awesome they are. Don't expect to iImpress me with awesomeness when 95% of you couldn't do the same thing sitting on stage in Canada at the finale because your mouse don't have macro's.

Edited by HolyGrail101, 18 July 2020 - 08:22 PM.

[cougurt]

HolyGrail101, on 18 July 2020 - 08:19 PM, said:

I clipped this off of one of a so called "Comp Player" a few months ago. Remember how I mentioned fine tuning the UI settings? It amazes me how much all the stat's wannabee's keep pretending stat's matter when they have to manipulate the entire range of settings they can without it being called cheating yet still telling folks how awesome they are. Don't expect to iImpress me with awesomeness when 95% of you couldn't do the same thing sitting on stage in Canada at the finale because your mouse don't have macro's.

i'm not sure how a single example of someone using questionable settings is representative of the majority of skilled players, but whatever it takes to protect your ego i suppose.

[HolyGrail101]

Brauer, on 18 July 2020 - 08:10 PM, said:

The list of things you claim high level comp players do is laughably bad. Macros/scripts are at best a side-grade when compared to human control and, imo, generally inferior to actually having control. Some players do tune their graphics settings outside of the ui, but this isn't strictly speaking required as far as I know, and I've done fairly well without touching that. And ping bouncing? What? You're pretty paranoid about this stuff and it shows you really don't understand the game when you claim macros are used extensively by strong players and claim they offer any advantage.

Proof is in the pudding. Anyone that has to manipulate their game settings or use a 3rd party app may not be as good as you if you don't use them but I know they are not as good as me since they have to use them to win.

Brauer, on 18 July 2020 - 08:10 PM, said:

What are these other pug play tactics that you're claiming make you a better player than people who focus on fighting? The only times I've ever used a "script" in this game is when I run lock-in weapons and let PGI aim for me.

You have over 9000 Matches I'd hoped you could figure out there are other tactics than Brawl in the middle of a map It's why there are multiple maps AND multiple Modes. Missile lock is a part of the game feel free to use it or any 3rd party App that PGI allows. If you don't use them feel free to know you too are a better Mechwarrior than anyone who needs them. Missiles are a legit tactic in MWO.

Brauer, on 18 July 2020 - 08:10 PM, said:

P.S I also play for fun. Engaging the enemy is fun. Winning is fun.

Winning is more fun when it is success through my piloting, shooting and ability to take charge with vocalizing like an actual Mech Commander would do. It's no win when players stack the deck in their favor through zero skill and or effort. It cheapens my gaming fun win or loss.

Brauer, on 18 July 2020 - 08:10 PM, said:

Players have come out of the woodwork during discussions of changes to PSR or the match score formula seeking match score buffs to actions that simply do not drive wins as reliably as killing the enemy. Given that context I think it's worthwhile to push back against those arguments because if those types of changes are implemented they will push match score and PSR further away from representing skill, and they don't represent it that well to begin with.

I'm not the only one so where does that leave us NON-Chad's that don't want to run around in Madcat's and Faf's? More important for you and your buddies; Where does that leave all the non cheating not skirting the rules real Chad's stat's when everyone play against feels the need to fake it? I'm Ok with being among tier 2-5 players that want to enjoy the game feel free to keep all the people that need to try to keep up with your "Fantasticalness".

P.S. If anyone can regular crush the players I consider good I acknowledge them.

Edited by HolyGrail101, 18 July 2020 - 09:41 PM.

[HolyGrail101]

cougurt, on 18 July 2020 - 09:05 PM, said:

i'm not sure how a single example of someone using questionable settings is representative of the majority of skilled players, but whatever it takes to protect your ego i suppose.

Ego? Sure since I know for a fact that I can and regularly have Mech to Mech crushed the player from that pic who also needed the Firing App to time his weapons on a different Mech. So yea I am absolutely saying that I can outplay that top 400 Jarl's List player.

Misplaced ego? Maybe but who cares I'm still a better pilot than most of the 400 I can't out shoot. My Champion Commando is one of the most versatile fun Mechs in the entire game, I'm unsure why anyone would choose to slog around in a MadCat instead.

Edited by HolyGrail101, 18 July 2020 - 09:58 PM.

[Brauer]

HolyGrail101, on 18 July 2020 - 09:10 PM, said:

You have over 9000 Matches I'd hoped you could figure out there are other tactics than Brawl in the middle of a map It's why there are multiple maps AND multiple Modes. Missile lock is a part of the game feel free to use it or any 3rd party App that PGI allows. If you don't use them feel free to know you too are a better Mechwarrior than anyone who needs them. Missiles are a legit tactic in MWO.

Prioritizing killing the enemy team is not the same as nascar. I typically take midrange to QP and often set up in an overwatch position. I've used a number of different strategies successfully. You also never cited any of these valid strats so I am still waiting on a substantive response. But do go on and assume I just mean everyone should engage maximum vroom vroom.

Quote

Winning is more fun when it is success through my piloting, shooting and ability to take charge with vocalizing like an actual Mech Commander would do. It's no win when players stack the deck in their favor through zero skill and or effort. It cheapens my gaming fun win or loss.

Not sure what you're going on about here.

Quote

I'm not the only one so where does that leave us NON-Chad's that don't want to run around in Madcat's and Faf's? More important for you and your buddies; Where does that leave all the non cheating not skirting the rules real Chad's stat's when everyone play against feels the need to fake it? I'm Ok with being among tier 2-5 players that want to enjoy the game feel free to keep all the people that need to try to keep up with your "Fantasticalness".

P.S. If anyone can regular crush the players I consider good I acknowledge them.

It's interesting that you choose the Fafnir as a boogeyman mech here. I'm usually pretty happy to see them on the other side since they are so squishy. The fact is mech selection and the mech lab is a part of the game. If you pick bad mechs and you can't hard-carry with them then you shouldn't see your PSR boosted because of some notion that taking bad mechs or builds is somehow more worthy or noble. At the same time it's pretty clear from your ideas that all high level players, and especially all comp players, are somehow cheating or near-cheating that you just don't understand the game very well or understand what it takes to perform well. That's fine, but it doesn't mean that specific match score factors should somehow be buffed to reward an ineffective playstyle.

FYI if the player you're accusing with that screenshot is who I think it is I think you're confused on a number of points including whether or not they'd get any advantage from any alleged changes, whether the color changes observed on the stream were visible to them in game, and whether or not that player can be considered a comp player. And I am saying that as someone who is not close to the player who I think you are referring to (quite the opposite in fact!).

I've played a fair amount against the top players who have been active over the last few years. I've never suspected any of them were doing anything fishy because I understand the game and how to perform in it well enough to understand when I have simply been outplayed. Blaming others is a barrier to improvement, I'd recommend focusing on your own performance first.

[OneTeamPlayer]

The idea that the MWO elite cadre is smaller than they think they are and some are at a lower "skill" ceiling than the claim due to "tweaks" is a common idea that always receives a massive amount of pushback and anger.

Setting that aside, I'll note that if MWO were actually as competitive as folk claim it could support an actual set of competition outside the well organized, but poorly attended competitions offered here and there (and that includes the championships PGI used to run).

There was a moment where the game had the chance to be a competitive powerhouse but this is not that moment.

[HolyGrail101]

The Match Scoring is broken.
It has always been broken.
People have always complained for a valid reason.

Brauer, on 19 July 2020 - 05:11 AM, said:

At the same time it's pretty clear from your ideas that all high level players, and especially all comp players, are somehow cheating or near-cheating that you just don't understand the game very well or understand what it takes to perform well.

I never accused a majority of faction or Comp players as cheats or definitely needing to skirt reasonable skill building. You attacked me originally for pointing out my reasonable belief that the Match Scoring is broken.

As for that pic I'm very sure you do know the person, it's a smallish community, I refused to call anyone out by name or unit since I very much actually do respect the persons unit and most of their players. I never suggested it is every unit or player; I am saying it is a thing that I can prove and you may not get anything out of his graphics settings but that player obviously thought they were.

I think it's overall pretty sad when I get attacked for pointing out legitimate issues that will further disrupt PUG play due to lack of foresight. Maybe I should pretend the new matchmaker is Great and bury my head in the sand so you can all be tier 1 in PUG play which most of you only do when bored or forced to solo. YAY!

My problem with the Match Scores being broken now vs previously is that the ENTIRE matchmaker system is now so geared towards only one style of play that it will drive away more people.

I guess we just have a fundamental difference in values. I consider people that fluff stat's to be completely pathetic.

People that regularly hide their Mech to save K/D ratio, Pathetic.
People that use Fire Control and claim to be good, Pathetic.
People that only jump on 10-20 games a month in PUG to stat plump, Pathetic.
People that 1st built the ATM Vapor Eagle, Awesome.
People that use the ATM Vapor Eagle (or any other Mech build someone else came up with) to Pump stats, Pathetic.

Edited by HolyGrail101, 19 July 2020 - 08:40 AM.

[Brauer]

HolyGrail101, on 19 July 2020 - 08:37 AM, said:

The Match Scoring is broken.
It has always been broken.
People have always complained for a valid reason.

Sure, the match score system isn't great. BUT the biggest issues are that things like kills are given too little weight, and situational/no-skill/completely irrelevant events are weighted too heavily, like lance in formation, missiles destroyed, assists, etc. You've never actually stated what you think needs to be buffed. So it'd be helpful if you had specific match events that you think deserve greater weight.

Quote

I never accused a majority of faction or Comp players as cheats or definitely needing to skirt reasonable skill building. You attacked me originally for pointing out my reasonable belief that the Match Scoring is broken.

Ahem, you said "I think that only riding around in the an OP Mech with OP guns, fine tuning your graphics settings outside the UI and or using scripts in order to speed fire your weapons is pretty pathetic and most of the "Competition" level and Faction players I hear boasting tend to do at least 2 out of those 3 things." At best you're making a distinction without a difference.

Quote

As for that pic I'm very sure you do know the person, it's a smallish community, I refused to call anyone out by name or unit since I very much actually do respect the persons unit and most of their players. I never suggested it is every unit or player; I am saying it is a thing that I can prove and you may not get anything out of his graphics settings but that player obviously thought they were.

If it's who I think it is I was in their unit. We looked into this and it seemed likely that the color change was a stream-setting issue and only showed up in their stream NOT their game. And I don't really see any advantage to this anyway. Sure, it's not ideal, and it looks funny. But using it as proof that a lot of players are somehow cheating (or near-cheating [again distinction without a difference imo]) is laughable, particularly considering they are definitively not a comp player at this point.

Quote

I think it's overall pretty sad when I get attacked for pointing out legitimate issues that will further disrupt PUG play due to lack of foresight. Maybe I should pretend the new matchmaker is Great and bury my head in the sand so you can all be tier 1 in PUG play which most of you only do when bored or forced to solo. YAY!

My problem with the Match Scores being broken now vs previously is that the ENTIRE matchmaker system is now so geared towards only one style of play that it will drive away more people.

I guess we just have a fundamental difference in values. I consider people that fluff stat's to be completely pathetic.

People that regularly hide their Mech to save K/D ratio, Pathetic.
People that use Fire Control and claim to be good, Pathetic.
People that only jump on 10-20 games a month in PUG to stat plump, Pathetic.
People that 1st built the ATM Vapor Eagle, Awesome.
People that use the ATM Vapor Eagle (or any other Mech build someone else came up with) to Pump stats, Pathetic.

Who uses fire control to claim to be good? Anyone who uses it is generally losing value by using a macro. None of the truly good players I have discussed this with use macros. At most people use a macro to spam their twitch channel or a greeting at match start.

What is it that you want to see done to improve match scoring?

IMO currently match score is not in a terrible place. There are issues with sandblasting weapons (ATMs, RACs, MRMs, LRMs, SSRMs) gaining overly high match score values because they put out a lot of inefficient damage, and ams printing free match score for zero player input. But, kills and damage are the main drivers of wins and so they should (as they are now) receive a relatively high weight in match score.

FYI I agree, hiding to preserve KDR is stupid and time-wasting. It's reasonable for a player to try to kite the enemy team and kill them off, but there are some players who just run off to hide. Players that do that generally are not very good.

[OneTeamPlayer]

Competitive mech design in 3 panels:

[HolyGrail101]

Brauer, on 19 July 2020 - 09:02 AM, said:

Sure, the match score system isn't great. BUT the biggest issues are that things like kills are given too little weight, and situational/no-skill/completely irrelevant events are weighted too heavily, like lance in formation, missiles destroyed, assists, etc. You've never actually stated what you think needs to be buffed. So it'd be helpful if you had specific match events that you think deserve greater weight.

Ahem, you said "I think that only riding around in the an OP Mech with OP guns, fine tuning your graphics settings outside the UI and or using scripts in order to speed fire your weapons is pretty pathetic and most of the "Competition" level and Faction players I hear boasting tend to do at least 2 out of those 3 things." At best you're making a distinction without a difference.

If it's who I think it is I was in their unit. We looked into this and it seemed likely that the color change was a stream-setting issue and only showed up in their stream NOT their game. And I don't really see any advantage to this anyway. Sure, it's not ideal, and it looks funny. But using it as proof that a lot of players are somehow cheating (or near-cheating [again distinction without a difference imo]) is laughable, particularly considering they are definitively not a comp player at this point.

Who uses fire control to claim to be good? Anyone who uses it is generally losing value by using a macro. None of the truly good players I have discussed this with use macros. At most people use a macro to spam their twitch channel or a greeting at match start.

What is it that you want to see done to improve match scoring?

IMO currently match score is not in a terrible place. There are issues with sandblasting weapons (ATMs, RACs, MRMs, LRMs, SSRMs) gaining overly high match score values because they put out a lot of inefficient damage, and ams printing free match score for zero player input. But, kills and damage are the main drivers of wins and so they should (as they are now) receive a relatively high weight in match score.

FYI I agree, hiding to preserve KDR is stupid and time-wasting. It's reasonable for a player to try to kite the enemy team and kill them off, but there are some players who just run off to hide. Players that do that generally are not very good.

I call out people that use minimal skill to boast and brag themselves up whether that means crowing about their awesome build somebody else designed or that they sat 5 grids out from the team with an 75 ton Mech using a dual Light Guass as their team fails. "If it fit's I sits", if not move on.

Have I once said "good players" use macro's? No, I've quite clearly said the exact opposite so stop trying to play the wounded bird. Players practice together as a unit without realizing one of their guys can't pull off what they think he can and get stomped when it comes to fighting the more capable players higher in the Competition.

As for who uses Fire Control and claims to be good once again I point at the guy in the pic. You know who set him up for that failure? The guys who trained him. He learned at the hands of people he couldn't compete with that Stats are everything, that the only way to even get close quickly was that he needed help, Put an Asterisk on his Baseball. Hence why I'm leaving all specifics of the player out of it.

All I hear out a corner of the community is how great the game is rolling along for them. Are we swimming in new players? When was the last time we were swimming in new players or ANY players at all? Match scoring has been one of the chief complaints of PUG players since near get go but it never got resolved due to that K/D being all important. If I win the match for my team by playing the actual mode then yes my immediate reward should also be the winning reward. You are trying to pretend that ONLY your play style can win the match. I'm calling you out unless you can get death star at least once a month. Other play styles are valid they just are not always as easy.

You want suggestions for how to fix the Matchmaker and the Match scoring like I'm throwing spaghetti at a wall to see what sticks? Irony. Isn't that how we got the new Match maker?

- Match Score completely changes PUG play, especially with the new group drop settings

I know you want an answer, so do I. I will say that people would not need to sandblast weapons and AMS if we fixed the way Match Scoring works to the benefits of everyone. I think that due to the coding limitations we are probably not going to get a great fix. You are correct "kills and damage are the main drivers of win", that does not mean it is working well. Not every mode is Skirmish on Classic Forest.

Edited by HolyGrail101, 19 July 2020 - 10:45 AM.

[John Bronco]

People ignore objectives because the title of the game is "Mechwarrior" not "Robot Cap Game". Objectives exist to get teams fighting in some different areas of the map, to mixed success. At least 90%, probably more like 98% of games are won on fighting, which means having mechs off nowhere capping is often detrimental to winning a match.

Certainly MS could be improved, there seems to be some agreement that damage weight should be reduced a tad, AMS should be reduced greatly, and the value of kills should be increased. I agree with all that.

Edited by BlaizerP, 19 July 2020 - 10:55 AM.

[OneTeamPlayer]

BlaizerP, on 19 July 2020 - 10:54 AM, said:

People ignore objectives because the title of the game is "Mechwarrior" not "Robot Cap Game". Objectives exist to get teams fighting in some different areas of the map, to mixed success. At least 90%, probably more like 98% of games are won on fighting, which means having mechs off nowhere capping is often detrimental to winning a match.

Certainly MS could be improved, there seems to be some agreement that damage weight should be reduced a tad, AMS should be reduced greatly, and the value of kills should be increased. I agree with all that.

It's MechWarrior not MechThinker, guys!

[Brauer]

OneTeamPlayer, on 19 July 2020 - 10:58 AM, said:

It's MechWarrior not MechThinker, guys!

You can think while engaging the enemy and helping your team win.

[John Bronco]

OneTeamPlayer, on 19 July 2020 - 10:58 AM, said:

It's MechWarrior not MechThinker, guys!

Standing in a box...so intellectually stimulating.

[OneTeamPlayer]

Brauer, on 19 July 2020 - 11:01 AM, said:

You can think while engaging the enemy and helping your team win.

That's not what it says in the title so it doesn't belong here.