78 replies to this topic

[The6thMessenger]

Spoiler

thievingmagpi, on 13 October 2020 - 11:24 AM, said:

Sorry to burst your bubble, but basic videogame competency isn't "playing at a high (comp) level". One doesn't need to be "comp level" to understand poor game mechanics. Things like easy and powerful auto-aim weapons, unpunishable damage and systems which lack real counterplay are detrimental to good gameplay. Buffing these systems as a whole because a couple of players have accessibility issues is absolutely counterproductive for the game as a whole. An effective MM that actually uses players Tier ranking and a match score formula that is effective in rewarding the right things will help to keep players who can't move and shoot in the same matches.

Continued buffs to lock on weapons and nerfs to other weapons and mechs has turned off far more existing and far more new potential players than not. The most important group of which is the massive middle ground of decently skilled players that has vacated this game; people who want to play a fun little game of building robots in a lab and then running around shooting. People who were competent at videogames and likely fled to other titles- because they all offered something better and MWO's appeal wore thin.

This is not exclusively just to answer him, but rather this has been in my mind for a while. Those that stick around in MWO are the vets (who arguably has no life, maybe), the old guys who know the goings-in-and-out of the game by now.

There always has been talk about precision and accuracy, the hate with the homing weapons because they are low-skill high-reward weapons, and quite honestly I agree. How do you balance the mechanic with that? If it's not effective, then what is the point? If it's too effective, then it's OP. Hell, it's balanced in the middle right now IMHO, and still it's more of a disappointment to the either side.

So lets just do it, a separate Balance in different environments, Casual that gets as casual as they want, and the Comp as hardcore as they want. Note that "Comp" and "Casual" aren't exact labels to people, they are simply used to this scenario.

While ideally, you want to have the balance as similar between Comp and Casual as possible that the Casual could be rewarded by playing smarter like a comp as they transition, the problem is that, well, in trying to appease everyone, they seem not to appease anyone. I think, it will exist in greater purity if the two would simply exist separate from each other, this is why "Tournament Rules" exist.

The Comps can hate on homing weapons as they want, have the lock-cone at 5-degrees (yes 5!) and 1/3rd of the lock-time with increased homing-weapons velocity to compensate. This mean that you need more precision to get and maintain a lock, a bit more hardcore but also more rewarding.

The Casuals, well 25-degree lock-cone is honestly fine, but could be argued back to 45-degrees if they want.

This doesn't need to be just limited on homing weapons, there might be other buffs and nerfs that would cater more to the comp people, because underutilized by casuals otherwise.

[John Bronco]

How much will you pay for your 45 degree cone?

[LordNothing]

that sounds like a lot of work = expensive.

[The6thMessenger]

LordNothing, on 13 October 2020 - 08:01 PM, said:

that sounds like a lot of work = expensive.

BlaizerP, on 13 October 2020 - 07:44 PM, said:

How much will you pay for your 45 degree cone?

I honestly don't want that. That being said, what currency are we talking about?

[thievingmagpi]

trying to appease everyone helps no one.

take 5 minutes and learn to put a crosshair over the giant metal robot.

[The6thMessenger]

thievingmagpi, on 13 October 2020 - 08:34 PM, said:

trying to appease everyone helps no one.

take 5 minutes and learn to put a crosshair over the giant metal robot.

Basically, "You can't appease everyone, so just appease us". K.

[thievingmagpi]

The6thMessenger, on 13 October 2020 - 09:01 PM, said:

Basically, "You can't appease everyone, so just appease us". K.

cool story bro

[VeeOt Dragon]

you know i can't see why the comp players hate LRM (and ATM to lesser degree) so much. there are so many counters to it not to mention the damage spreads out. you have AMS, EMC and good maneuvering as well as the LRM min range. also players that stay in one place or far from their team are punished by being easy prey for light mechs. you also have the fact that to use them to their absolute fullest potential you need to have a team that can somewhat work together not the everyone for themselves comp play. all these counter the dreaded "Easy Mode" weapon. i'm ex-Army Missile Delivery Systems Operator (MLRS) so i like having an indirect fire option. if you want a game with no indirect fire go play something else because LRM are right there in the lore and are part of the universe. its one of the many reason i hate Meta Cry babies that ruin the game for others because they want their play style to be the only one. yes locking weapons are easy to do some damage with but it takes a good bit of tactical thinking to be good with them, positioning is key.

right now the way things stand as far as weapon balance goes i think things are rather good. the direct fire/ indirect fire arc changes did a lot for the game. also you never hear the meta folks ***** about Steak SRM and they are lock on weapons. leave it to them and all you would have is short range weapons taking out LLs, and PPCs and cutting the range down for the longer range ballistics. then again since the game is nothing but 99.9% nascar using anything that requires tactical thinking is out the window (and yes LRM are tactical weapons more than damage dealers. what happens when you get that missile warning, answer you go for cover or back up. not all the missiles will hit you but you are now out of direct fire with the enemy.)

i am a fan of Lore and if you took out the weapons "competitive" players hate then it would no longer be Mechwarrior. then again if you let the comp players make all the balance decisions then the game would die even faster from lack of newer players.

also take a look at BattleTech or the original table top, you don't have perfect pinpoint fire there. i don't think they would care so much about LRM if all weapons hit a relatively random location on an enemy mech. again you don't like lock on weapons go play something else.

(on a side note if you are looking at my game data to gauge if i am aloud an opinion you can go suck eggs. i don't care about meta and often play strange builds just for the fun of it. are they always good, no, is it fun, big yes. most of my favorite mechs are far from what one would call meta and i don't care.)

[The6thMessenger]

VeeOt Dragon, on 13 October 2020 - 10:47 PM, said:

you know i can't see why the comp players hate LRM (and ATM to lesser degree) so much. there are so many counters to it not to mention the damage spreads out.

...

yes locking weapons are easy to do some damage with but it takes a good bit of tactical thinking to be good with them, positioning is key.

Hate is a strong word, but they are getting used by Comps -- as per my other thread. You have to understand about people being competitive, and that is what the "Comp" guys are, competitive. Homing-Weapons are autoaim, and they like being rewarded with good aim, some people are just like that, the Type-As.

Sad fact is that, not a lot of people have a good rig to run this poorly-coded Piece-Of-****, that I can run Doom eternal at 60 FPS fine, but **** is still in-between 30 and 60 DPS depending on maps. That is not condusive to aiming. Likewise people don't necessarily play this game all the time to git-gud, they have life, they have jobs, it's not like everyone is a Baradul that has to play the game because it's practically their job.

While it can be solved by good PSR, problem is that they will be inevitably matched by seal-clubbing players because of the low population. And while I get it, making additional buckets might not be good to the match count either, but unless we do this, the other option is just live with the disappointment.

VeeOt Dragon, on 13 October 2020 - 10:47 PM, said:

right now the way things stand as far as weapon balance goes i think things are rather good. the direct fire/ indirect fire arc changes did a lot for the game.

I kind of agree, i have some nipicks, but I kinda agree. LRMs are still weak versus people who know what they are doing, but they work if you know what you are doing.

I think they stopped about complaining with SSRMs by the time the lock-cone was reduced from 45 to 25 degrees.

VeeOt Dragon, on 13 October 2020 - 10:47 PM, said:

i am a fan of Lore and if you took out the weapons "competitive" players hate then it would no longer be Mechwarrior. then again if you let the comp players make all the balance decisions then the game would die even faster from lack of newer players.

I'm honestly not fan of either, the lore-guys, sometimes put together things that may be lore-accurate, but isn't balanced. And quite frankly, i feel that Comp Guys are only really looking out for themselves, as to how they play. There's difference in philosophy there, and maybe something we can't reconcile.

That's why it would be good to have a Comp-Exclusive balance separate from the casual. Yes the player-base is further divided, but are you really there to compete or just to club some seals? That's like an adult competing in children's wrestling match, you know you're going to win so what's the point? And you look like predators.

[VeeOt Dragon]

thanks for the response Messenger, its nice to see someone comment to one of my posts without pulling the "git-good" card or calling out my player stat (something that since you can't check it in game i have no idea how to do and don't care)

even as a fan of Lore i have to say you are right that some of the stuff in universe is far from balanced. hell if we followed it that close then FP would have smaller Clan player numbers per team than IS given they organize their units differently. there does need to be some sacrifice of lore for play ability and balance.


as for equipment i agree, i use an older PC so run the game on the lowest settings to make it consistent with FPS. i also get hand tremors so i tend to spread damage even with lasers and ACs that fire multiple rounds per trigger pull. on my best day i am an above averge player at best, on my worst i can't hit broad side of a barn so i pull out my Catapult, missile Hunchback, or other LRM Boat so i can at least be useful (nothing puts a smile on my face more than when i i kill a try hard with concentrated LRM fire). having the option of a locking weapon means i can have fun even on days when my tremors are really bad.

[My Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ]

VeeOt Dragon, on 13 October 2020 - 10:47 PM, said:

you know i can't see why the comp players hate LRM (and ATM to lesser degree) so much. there are so many counters to it not to mention the damage spreads out.

As long as you're not riddled with Parkinson's even the worst player could run LRMs and perform acceptably, in a competitive game how is that fair? There is also the fact that being hit by an enemy who you can't see and can't return fire on is frustrating, its not fun.

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also players that stay in one place or far from their team are punished by being easy prey for light mechs.

Then you understand why a lot of people look down on lurm boats. Because sure free kills if they're on the enemy team, but if you have a Supernova sat back throwing LRMs indirectly at 800m then you have to deal with the handicap. Even then what if there is no fast lights or mediums?

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you also have the fact that to use them to their absolute fullest potential you need to have a team that can somewhat work together not the everyone for themselves comp play.

Running LRMs effectively in soup queue is easy as hell, just run them like you have PPCs. Fight in the group, get your direct locks and use your team around you to protect your minimum range. And how is comp play 'everyone for themselves'? If you have played comp you know it is the gamemode by far that requires the most pre-planning and co-ordination.

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i'm ex-Army Missile Delivery Systems Operator (MLRS) so i like having an indirect fire option.

I'm a chef, but I don't want to be about to cook up some nice scrambled egg on my extremely hot mech.

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if you want a game with no indirect fire go play something else because LRM are right there in the lore and are part of the universe.

How TT balance or muh lore relevant to MWO? We already lack things in muh lore like ammo swapping.

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its one of the many reason i hate Meta Cry babies that ruin the game for others because they want their play style to be the only one.

I don't think people should be rewarded for running ez weapons, MWO is afterall a competitive game.

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yes locking weapons are easy to do some damage with but it takes a good bit of tactical thinking to be good with them, positioning is key.

You can still easily farm +1k damage by mindlessly clicking on locks while sat behind a hill.

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right now the way things stand as far as weapon balance goes i think things are rather good.

I generally agree that LRMs and streaks are fine as they are right now. Sure maybe a balance pass later on but they are perfectly fine now, ATMs though aren't.

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also you never hear the meta folks ***** about Steak SRM and they are lock on weapons.

But they do, in fact most people would get annoyed if they're playing a light and some Streak boat just instagibbed them.

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leave it to them and all you would have is short range weapons taking out LLs, and PPCs and cutting the range down for the longer range ballistics.

???

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(and yes LRM are tactical weapons more than damage dealers. what happens when you get that missile warning, answer you go for cover or back up. not all the missiles will hit you but you are now out of direct fire with the enemy.)

No you ask for a UAV check and try figure out where you're being spotted from.

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i am a fan of Lore

I like the lore too, but I also like competitive shooters. Applying TT balance or lore is not going to work because they're different things.

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and if you took out the weapons "competitive" players hate then it would no longer be Mechwarrior.

I think the people who want to remove weapons, any weapons, are in the minority. Removing weapons is a last resort move.

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then again if you let the comp players make all the balance decisions then the game would die even faster from lack of newer players.

Would you go to a low skill player in T5 where so much works because no one is skilled enough to punish bad builds, or would you ask a top tier player who has the experience and knowledge of how to build mechs well and what works?

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also take a look at BattleTech or the original table top, you don't have perfect pinpoint fire there.

They are not shooters.

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(on a side note if you are looking at my game data to gauge if i am aloud an opinion you can go suck eggs. i don't care about meta and often play strange builds just for the fun of it. are they always good, no, is it fun, big yes. most of my favorite mechs are far from what one would call meta and i don't care.)

Mechwarrior Online is a competitive game, and typically in something competitive the goal is to win. Why intentionally hamper yourself by going "I don't care about meta, I'll run what I want!"? Half the fight in MWO is won in the mechlab, building something superb you can use to cream the guys on the other side and to do that you need to care about what is good or not.

I'm not saying you have to go on Grimmechs and get one of the builds off that, but you should through attrition or asking other people learn what is and isn't good and apply that knowledge. Naturally you should drift close to what is considered 'meta'.

[The6thMessenger]

Gloster-, on 14 October 2020 - 12:54 AM, said:

As long as you're not riddled with Parkinson's even the worst player could run LRMs and perform acceptably, in a competitive game how is that fair? There is also the fact that being hit by an enemy who you can't see and can't return fire on is frustrating, its not fun.

I agree, really.

That's why Comps need their own place, where they can tune homing weapons as they feel it's fair, maybe even the other weapons.

Gloster-, on 14 October 2020 - 12:54 AM, said:

Mechwarrior Online is a competitive game, and typically in something competitive the goal is to win.

That's like EVERY PVP game ever, that's the Fall Guys: Ultimate Knockout, and they didn't even need to be hard-core about their gameplay.

But the thing is that, well, the game is supposed to cater to everyone to have maximum appeal, so that they acquire a large player base. And the logical conclusion with your proposal is the casual players might as well not play the game, and it's not conducive to the longevity of the game.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 14 October 2020 - 01:04 AM.

[My Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ]

The6thMessenger, on 14 October 2020 - 12:57 AM, said:

I agree, really.

That's why Comps need their own place, where they can tune homing weapons as they feel it's fair, maybe even the other weapons.

Then you run into the issue of comp becoming nigh inaccessible for people because it runs on completely different rules, it'd other further drive the various communities apart. Same obviously goes the other way.

Edited by Gloster-, 14 October 2020 - 01:01 AM.

[The6thMessenger]

Gloster-, on 14 October 2020 - 01:00 AM, said:

Then you run into the issue of comp becoming nigh inaccessible for people because it runs on completely different rules, it'd other further drive the various communities apart. Same obviously goes the other way.

What do you expect? The two seems to prefer contrary things. That's like being in a toxic relationship, why force it to make it work? Why "Apart" is such a bad thing? If we cater to the Casuals, it is to the detriment of Comp, and vise versa. If we try to appease both, nobody is happy.

Do you (rhetorical you) really need people to easily transition to comp? Sounds like you want a playmate, but would have to play by your rules, and you would rather force them to play by your rules.

[My Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ]

The6thMessenger, on 14 October 2020 - 01:16 AM, said:

What do you expect? The two seems to prefer contrary things.

But they don't, thats the thing. Do you know how often I see top tier players lament how the Timberwolf is trash and that engine desync killed their favourite mechs? They want the same stuff as the mechdads but the only difference is that they have the skill and knowledge to know what does and doesn't need to be changed.

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Do you (rhetorical you) really need people to easily transition to comp?

Yes I do, I think everyone should try out comp play because its such a unique experience that encourages tactical thinking that mechdads always say they want.

[The6thMessenger]

Gloster-, on 14 October 2020 - 01:35 AM, said:

But they don't, thats the thing. Do you know how often I see top tier players lament how the Timberwolf is trash and that engine desync killed their favourite mechs? They want the same stuff as the mechdads but the only difference is that they have the skill and knowledge to know what does and doesn't need to be changed.

Having similar things does not mean that contrary things does not exist, like the lock-cone nerf, you think everyone gracefully accepted that change?

And you know what, I agree, it's the high-skill that knows the balance well, and how to utilize this to their advantage. Now how would this cater to those that are low-skill and otherwise not know about it?

In TF2, there is this tool for the soldier that is called Base Jumper that gave unparalleled mobility, because it can be easily undeployed and deployed, changing your fall-speed as you did. But while a comp guy can make use of it's stutter descent to avoid enemy fire, an average casual cant -- and on the other side, the comp guys could easily hit a base-jumping rocket, whereas the casual will have difficulty.

So back to MWO, how good are the changes made by comp with nuance to the average player? Learn it? Who has the time? Not everyone has the time or even the interest to do so, some just want stupid fun, and that is what the Casual is about.

If you want them to learn about the skills that it takes to be at the comp, why not instead encourage them to the comp scene and train them? Isn't that what you (rhetorical you) people already do? Play with your own squads in private matches?

Gloster-, on 14 October 2020 - 01:35 AM, said:

Yes I do, I think everyone should try out comp play because its such a unique experience that encourages tactical thinking that mechdads always say they want.

Well, here is the thing, that sounds like that you want, but not what that specific participant wants. If said mech-dad really wants it, why not let them taste the waters for themselves? If the Casual Queue is going to be monotonous and boring anyways, they might play the Comp Queue and like it.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 14 October 2020 - 01:54 AM.

[My Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ]

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Having similar things does not mean that contrary things does not exist, like the lock-cone nerf, you think everyone gracefully accepted that change?

If you cannot hold your aim vaguely over a target for a second or two to get a lock, I'm sorry to say but with such a physical impairment you should consider not playing a competitive game.

The6thMessenger, on 14 October 2020 - 01:46 AM, said:

In TF2

TF2 has loads of skill based stuff, even with stock loadouts.

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So back to MWO, how good are the changes made by comp with nuance to the average player?

You seem to think that the balance changes are going to make everything uber complex, I don't understand where you get this reasoning from.

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Learn it? Who has the time?

How stunted is your brain if you can't pick something up within a few hours of play?

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some just want stupid fun,

They can have their stupid fun, and their stats will rightfully represent their lack of caring.

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why not instead encourage them to the comp scene and train them? Isn't that what you (rhetorical you) people already do? Play with your own squads in private matches?

If you ask one of the top tier comp players for help, they'll either likely agree or point you towards someone who would. Why wouldn't they? It only hurts them trying to gatekeep.

[The6thMessenger]

Gloster-, on 14 October 2020 - 02:02 AM, said:

If you cannot hold your aim vaguely over a target for a second or two to get a lock, I'm sorry to say but with such a physical impairment you should consider not playing a competitive game.

Can I assume "rhetorical you" as well?

Sure?

But didn't this started out as a Sim-Game? You know, to revive MechWarrior? I mean sure there's MW5, but that's like years after the game is stable and established.

Gloster-, on 14 October 2020 - 02:02 AM, said:

You seem to think that the balance changes are going to make everything uber complex, I don't understand where you get this reasoning from.

No, not at all.

I get this from understanding how a bell-curve works, the standard distribution. I don't really know the current population's distribution, but ideally the incoming new players should come from that.

Spoiler

Skill with, whatever, even aiming, goes up. But the high-skill players will ultimately be the minority. Why balance for the top, when they are the minority?

I suppose it's because that when it's balanced on the top, means it's also balanced from the bottom, and I agree.

And that is where the proposal comes in. If the comp guys have their own balance, where they can make the homing weapons basically as pinpoint as they want, it would be balanced by how they could use it.

The homing weapons, generally frowned upon as low-skill high-reward, you can make it as high-skill as you want, without affecting the lower population.

I remember proposing something back then, to make LRMs have less DPS, but more alpha, less ammo, less forgiving. People have to put thought into using it as a result, and making it basically an artillery. They shut it down, not because it can't be balanced -- it can be balanced, but it's just not fun. That's the point, while there's balance, there's also fun.

As with above, your comment about just leaving a competitive game, sure you could polarize the population by having them mostly high-skill, but I figure that means you will have to suffer low population count to make that happen.

PGI is running a business, and what pays them is people. it is in their best interest to cater everyone, they can't just be exclusive. And considering that they want to revitalize MWO, attracting the casual population is in their best interest to make money.

Gloster-, on 14 October 2020 - 02:02 AM, said:

How stunted is your brain if you can't pick something up within a few hours of play?

I feel that you're getting personal here. Do you really have to? We're just discussing.

I'm not justifying mediocrity, but sadly that is the fact of life here. You think anyone can be a genius? They only deserve the chance to prove it, but ultimately you can be held back by genetics, and that's just one of the reasons.

Gloster-, on 14 October 2020 - 02:02 AM, said:

They can have their stupid fun, and their stats will rightfully represent their lack of caring.

Their experiences though?

Gloster-, on 14 October 2020 - 02:02 AM, said:

If you ask one of the top tier comp players for help, they'll either likely agree or point you towards someone who would. Why wouldn't they? It only hurts them trying to gatekeep.

Then it's settled. Lets do separate balances for separate queues of different skill levels.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 14 October 2020 - 04:40 AM.

[VeeOt Dragon]

as long as someone is competent with their build i don't care what they are carrying. hell i'v seen people with what just about anyone would call a rather **** build or a build that seems to waste the potential of a mech and wreck face with it. its all about play style and tactics.

hell i build a King Crab once and put a single LRM 10 on it (not something i usually do but wanted to try something) it was a hoot to see a light or fast medium run up thinking "oh theres and LRM boat on the other side of the ridge" onl to splat him with primary armament. hell even when i lose if it was a fun match i'm fine with it. the closer the match or longer i live the more fun i have. yes the game can be competitive but its a GAME the primary goal is fun. what one player finds as fun is not waht another would call fun. the only thing i don't approve of are seal clubbers who's only idea of fun is stomping on other players with constant 12-0 victories.

sadly toxic players who think their way is the only way chase off the new blood before they can get better. MWO has a high skill curve i'll admit that.

back about a year ago when i still played more regularly how i dealt with players who had builds that weren't working for them is i asked them what kind of build they were going for and then gave a few pointers on how they could improve it in that direction (the biggest being folks that make ammo dependent builds but run out before the match is done (well that or they put the ammo in a location were they lost it that way), i usually tell them to carry a par of medium lasers or a better place to store ammo something along that line as a backup weapon. (i have run into more than a few players putting ammo in their CT, not the best idea)

population is effected by how the community treats each other. if your constantly hearing "go home or git-gude noob" then of course your going to stop playing. we need those new players for the game to survive. if the only players left are the over competitive ones then there wont be enough people left for them to bother keeping the servers running.

hell i get tier 1 players all the time telling me to shut up when i call for counter nascar when its obvious that the other team is going to stomp us if they keep up the left turn nonsense. (its got to the point that when that happens i lead by example and just smash the enemy in the face so i can get to the next match, if i'm luck i may stall their advance if not well on to the next match) one of the things i loved about lower Tier battles was that people tried different tactics, didn't always work but no plan last beyond first contact with the enemy

Edited by VeeOt Dragon, 14 October 2020 - 02:38 AM.

[MOBAjobg]

VeeOt Dragon, on 13 October 2020 - 11:43 PM, said:

thanks for the response Messenger, its nice to see someone comment to one of my posts without pulling the "git-good" card or calling out my player stat (something that since you can't check it in game i have no idea how to do and don't care)

even as a fan of Lore i have to say you are right that some of the stuff in universe is far from balanced. hell if we followed it that close then FP would have smaller Clan player numbers per team than IS given they organize their units differently. there does need to be some sacrifice of lore for play ability and balance.


as for equipment i agree, i use an older PC so run the game on the lowest settings to make it consistent with FPS. i also get hand tremors so i tend to spread damage even with lasers and ACs that fire multiple rounds per trigger pull. on my best day i am an above averge player at best, on my worst i can't hit broad side of a barn so i pull out my Catapult, missile Hunchback, or other LRM Boat so i can at least be useful (nothing puts a smile on my face more than when i i kill a try hard with concentrated LRM fire). having the option of a locking weapon means i can have fun even on days when my tremors are really bad.

This is how to check stats and here is yours.
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