81 replies to this topic

[The Lighthouse]

I randomly realized this game still does not have mixtech, which is incredibly weird because pretty much all other mechwarrior games have it, at least in some sorts.


At this point this will rekindle interest from a lot of people and maybe produce some mechpack sales. Also now the number of people who would whine about mixtech should be very few in number now.


It is easiest way to put 'new' content to this game without much hardwork.


Balance is already completely destroyed a long time ago so it is the least concern anyway.


At least this will 'refresh' game for a couple of months while we can do something more immediate-term or long-term projects for this game.


And like, we can make IS weapons and Clan weapons behave differently in case some weapons are clearly superior than others, like maybe IS ultra cannon do not jam but cannot double-tap but just fire at 2x rate, IS Gauss does not have 'charging' mechanics, etc.

[Monkey Lover]

Maybe in some type of sandbox mode.

[The pessimistic optimist]

LMAO I have idea's for the most horrifying builds if we could do that but the game is balanced on none-mixed tech so it could break the game so yea maybe sandbox mode.

[The6thMessenger]

That's just a horrible idea, at least current balance horrible. You should care about balance, because it's a multiplayer game, a semblance of balance must exist for this to be playable.

IS Tech is INHERENTLY inferior to Clan Tech, and now if you allow IS mechs to get Clan Lasers, on top of their already existing Quirks, like Clan Heavy Larges, or Clan ER Mediums, a lot of tech is going to be obsoleted really fast.

The Clans could get more precise with single-slug ACs though.

[The Lighthouse]

The6thMessenger, on 16 October 2020 - 11:40 PM, said:

That's just a horrible idea, at least current balance horrible. You should care about balance, because it's a multiplayer game, a semblance of balance must exist for this to be playable.

IS Tech is INHERENTLY inferior to Clan Tech, and now if you allow IS mechs to get Clan Lasers, on top of their already existing Quirks, like Clan Heavy Larges, or Clan ER Mediums, a lot of tech is going to be obsoleted really fast.

The Clans could get more precise with single-slug ACs though.

Actually that AC issue matters a lot. There are a lot of Clan mechs that would benefit from IS Ultra AC-5 for example.

Also I'd gladly take IS medium pulse for many of my clan light mechs as well.

And it is not that horrible idea if we do balance things right. Put stuffs, make people interested, and balance out based on community suggestions.

[martian]

The Lighthouse, on 16 October 2020 - 10:46 PM, said:

I randomly realized this game still does not have mixtech, which is incredibly weird because pretty much all other mechwarrior games have it, at least in some sorts.

Yes, they had it.

But the reason was that those games were conceived as campaign-driven games with some multi-player addons, so it made sense for the player to start with (usually) some Inner Sphere 'Mech (Commando in MechWarrior 2: Mercenaries, Bushwacker in MechWarrior 3 and Shadow Cat in MechWarrior 4: Vengeance) and let him gradually equip his 'Mech with Clan weapons as he salvaged them while progressing the campaign. Clan wepons served to balance the fight against progressively harder oppponents.

The same principle was used in the MechCommander series of games from the same era.

But MWO is a multi-player game with no campaign mode. The goal is to make all chassis and weapons balanced. One must think about such things like that all chassis should be at least partially viable, that all weapons should be used, that there must be some reasonable time to kill enemy 'Mechs, etc.

The Lighthouse, on 16 October 2020 - 10:46 PM, said:

At this point this will rekindle interest from a lot of people and maybe produce some mechpack sales. Also now the number of people who would whine about mixtech should be very few in number now.

Do you know why people have stopped buying new 'Mechpacks?

It was because they realized that after they buy a new 'Mech, they will run to the same rock as thousand times before and nascar around it as thousand times before.

It does not matter if you do it in Shadow Hawk from 2013, Ryoken from 2015 or Uziel from 2018.

Two or three new types of lasers (X-Pulse Lasers, VSP Lasers, etc.) and one or two new types of ballistic weapons (SBGR, HAG, etc.) are not going to rekindle any new interest in the game.
Ditto for the new 'Mech Pack.

How many players would be willing to spend their cash on some new 'Mech, put one or two slightly different weapons on it - and then return to the same stale gameplay they have left?

The Lighthouse, on 16 October 2020 - 10:46 PM, said:

It is easiest way to put 'new' content to this game without much hardwork.

I am not sure if some new laser with one point more damage and 50 metres of additional range counts as a new content. Not even with a new colour.

The Lighthouse, on 16 October 2020 - 10:46 PM, said:

Balance is already completely destroyed a long time ago so it is the least concern anyway.

Actually, I do not think that the balance is that bad in the current MWO.

The Lighthouse, on 16 October 2020 - 10:46 PM, said:

At least this will 'refresh' game for a couple of months ...

This "refreshment" would last about a week or two, until everybody rearms his 'Mech with the best combination of new weapons.

And of course, nascaring is not going anywhere ...

The Lighthouse, on 16 October 2020 - 10:46 PM, said:

... while we can do something more immediate-term or long-term projects for this game.

"We" can do nothing.

Only Russ Bullock and PGI can.

Unfortunately, they have neither resources, manpower or clue what to do next.

The Lighthouse, on 16 October 2020 - 10:46 PM, said:

And like, we can make IS weapons and Clan weapons behave differently in case some weapons are clearly superior than others, like maybe IS ultra cannon do not jam but cannot double-tap but just fire at 2x rate, IS Gauss does not have 'charging' mechanics, etc.

You can not destroy the meta, you can only change it.

[The6thMessenger]

The Lighthouse, on 16 October 2020 - 11:57 PM, said:

And it is not that horrible idea if we do balance things right. Put stuffs, make people interested, and balance out based on community suggestions.

Sure, but are you really expecting PGI to do things right?

I think we should get proper techbase balance first, then we do mix-tech.

[The pessimistic optimist]

The Lighthouse, on 16 October 2020 - 11:57 PM, said:

And it is not that horrible idea if we do balance things right. Put stuffs, make people interested, and balance out based on community suggestions.

Just no! No offense but most of this community has the WORST ideas for game balancing. There not all bad but A LOT are

Edited by SirSmokes, 17 October 2020 - 03:11 AM.

[John Bronco]

One of the worst ideas on this board, which is saying quite a lot.

[Willard Phule]

The6thMessenger, on 16 October 2020 - 11:40 PM, said:

That's just a horrible idea, at least current balance horrible. You should care about balance, because it's a multiplayer game, a semblance of balance must exist for this to be playable.

IS Tech is INHERENTLY inferior to Clan Tech, and now if you allow IS mechs to get Clan Lasers, on top of their already existing Quirks, like Clan Heavy Larges, or Clan ER Mediums, a lot of tech is going to be obsoleted really fast.

The Clans could get more precise with single-slug ACs though.

Your argument is circular. If balance exists, then mixing the tech won't upset that balance. As for Clan tech being "inherently superior" to IS tech, I believe that was the entire purpose to all the "balancing." Allowing Clan weapons on IS mechs wouldn't unbalance things any more than IS weapons on Clan mechs. And remember, Clans don't have the multitudes of different PPCs, RACs or MRMs. I, for one, would love to put IS RACs on my Blood Asp.

[Willard Phule]

Lockheed_, on 17 October 2020 - 07:51 AM, said:

Sure, have the mobility and armor of an IS mech and the firepower and lower weight weapons of the Clans, that's gonna work out just fine!

Imagine that....IS mechs that are inherently slower than Clan mechs, but packing Clan firepower. Where, on the other side, the mechs are quicker but mount less weaponry if they choose to carry IS weapons. Almost like.....balance.....

[The pessimistic optimist]

Willard Phule, on 17 October 2020 - 08:51 AM, said:

Imagine that....IS mechs that are inherently slower than Clan mechs, but packing Clan firepower. Where, on the other side, the mechs are quicker but mount less weaponry if they choose to carry IS weapons. Almost like.....balance.....

It could work or it could break the game we don't know till we try it LOL. It sure as hell would be different then the game we are playing now

[VonBruinwald]

The6thMessenger, on 17 October 2020 - 01:16 AM, said:

I think we should get proper techbase balance first, then we do mix-tech.

This! Balance the tech and you can increase mech viability, roll back quirks and mix-tech all you like.

SirSmokes, on 17 October 2020 - 09:58 AM, said:

It could work or it could break the game we don't know till we try it LOL. It sure as hell would be different then the game we are playing now

I'm surprised they haven't PTS'd this yet. No harm in doing it there even as a week long thing.

[Willard Phule]

SirSmokes, on 17 October 2020 - 09:58 AM, said:

It could work or it could break the game we don't know till we try it LOL. It sure as hell would be different then the game we are playing now

It would certainly draw old players back and perhaps even draw in new ones. That's counter to the mission. So, probably won't happen.

[The6thMessenger]

Willard Phule, on 17 October 2020 - 07:32 AM, said:

Your argument is circular. If balance exists, then mixing the tech won't upset that balance.

No it's not. The current balance is about IS tech getting on with Clan Tech, that is why IS techs generally have higher armor quirks is because the Clans can technically out-DPS them.

Now consider the IS getting access to Clan ACs. Now they got both higher DPS/Ton, and the most armor and generally better mobility.

Why bother with IS DHS when they have the 2-slot Clan DHS. Do you know how hard it is to fit IS DHS on mechs? That is on top of their generally FFA and Endo-Steel.

Why would any IS light use is ERML when Clan ERML has better damage/ton?

Techbase Balance first, before mix-tech.

Willard Phule, on 17 October 2020 - 07:32 AM, said:

As for Clan tech being "inherently superior" to IS tech, I believe that was the entire purpose to all the "balancing." Allowing Clan weapons on IS mechs wouldn't unbalance things any more than IS weapons on Clan mechs.

Yes they will. Refer to scenario above.

Willard Phule, on 17 October 2020 - 07:32 AM, said:

And remember, Clans don't have the multitudes of different PPCs, RACs or MRMs. I, for one, would love to put IS RACs on my Blood Asp.

Doing a variety of different things is not equal to being balanced. The 6 Ton 15-damage Clan ERPPC is superior than many of the PPCs out there for example.

[Willard Phule]

The6thMessenger, on 17 October 2020 - 04:12 PM, said:

No it's not. The current balance is about IS tech getting on with Clan Tech, that is why IS techs generally have higher armor quirks is because the Clans can technically out-DPS them.

Now consider the IS getting access to Clan ACs. Now they got both higher DPS/Ton, and the most armor and generally better mobility.

At the cost of significantly higher heat and slower recharge time as well as "spazz fire" balistics. You're forgetting the whole "balance" thing that has already been worked into the system.

The6thMessenger, on 17 October 2020 - 04:12 PM, said:

Why bother with IS DHS when they have the 2-slot Clan DHS. Do you know how hard it is to fit IS DHS on mechs? That is on top of their generally FFA and Endo-Steel.

Agreed. One would think, however, that you must have a Clan XL to be able to use Clan DHS, since 10 of them are in the engine. And, again, they are significantly more expensive than IS engines, even XLs. More "balance."

The6thMessenger, on 17 October 2020 - 04:12 PM, said:

Why would any IS light use is ERML when Clan ERML has better damage/ton?

Only answer I have is that it's all they can afford. Or, maybe their design needs a higher cyclic rate on purpose. There's that balance thing again.

The6thMessenger, on 17 October 2020 - 04:12 PM, said:

Techbase Balance first, before mix-tech.

Something they've never been able to adequately achieve before anything else. I see.

The6thMessenger, on 17 October 2020 - 04:12 PM, said:

Yes they will. Refer to scenario above.



Doing a variety of different things is not equal to being balanced. The 6 Ton 15-damage Clan ERPPC is superior than many of the PPCs out there for example.

Again, at the expense of significantly higher heat and slower recharge time. You completely disregard all of the ******** balancing that PGI has already put into the weapon systems. Imagine an Arctic Wolf running about with IS SRM2s. Why the hell would he ever do that? Ask the guys running about in Stealth Commandos why they use them. Clan Tech isn't what you're giving it credit for. Not by a long shot.

[Y E O N N E]

No, we cannot. And will not. And should not.

[The pessimistic optimist]

The tech combos I would like to try MRM+ATM that would HURT!!! IS AC 5 + clan large pulse nice to have a pulse laser that can shoot almost as far as IS AC 5. IS med pulse on clan lights ect. I can see how MRM + ATM could be broken as F would have to try it too see

Edited by SirSmokes, 17 October 2020 - 07:10 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

Willard Phule, on 17 October 2020 - 04:58 PM, said:

At the cost of significantly higher heat and slower recharge time as well as "spazz fire" balistics. You're forgetting the whole "balance" thing that has already been worked into the system.

17% chance with 6.5s Jam, versus 15% jam with 6s Jam right?

That means it jams 5.88235 times for the CUAC5, while 6.66667 times for UAC5.

UAC5 = (6.66667 x 5 x 2) / (6.0 + (6.66667 * 1.66) ) = 66.66667 / 17.06667 = 3.906 EDPS

CUAC5 = (5.88235 x 5 x 2) / (6.5 + (5.88235 x (1.66 + ( 0.11 x 2)))) = 58.823529411764705882352941176471 / 17.558823529411764705882352941176 = 3.350 EDPS

UAC5 EDPS/Ton = 0.4340277
CUAC5 EDPS/Ton = 0.478583

Close, but no. You have more DPS with CUAC5 versus UAC5. Sure you technically can go UAC5 for more efficient use of the hardpoints, but you can also go for CUAC10s at that point.

Here is what you are forgetting, the Clans doing something different does not mean it's balanced.

Willard Phule, on 17 October 2020 - 04:58 PM, said:

Agreed. One would think, however, that you must have a Clan XL to be able to use Clan DHS, since 10 of them are in the engine. And, again, they are significantly more expensive than IS engines, even XLs. More "balance."

That doesn't really disprove my point. You also phased out XL and LFE.

Willard Phule, on 17 October 2020 - 04:58 PM, said:

Only answer I have is that it's all they can afford. Or, maybe their design needs a higher cyclic rate on purpose. There's that balance thing again.

And then there's that wrong assumption about doing things differently = balance.

Willard Phule, on 17 October 2020 - 04:58 PM, said:

Again, at the expense of significantly higher heat and slower recharge time. You completely disregard all of the ******** balancing that PGI has already put into the weapon systems. Imagine an Arctic Wolf running about with IS SRM2s. Why the hell would he ever do that? Ask the guys running about in Stealth Commandos why they use them. Clan Tech isn't what you're giving it credit for. Not by a long shot.

No, I don't disregard it. But the idea of balance is equilibrium, not just "doing things differently". That is the main problem of your perspective. You just can't wrap your head with that.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 17 October 2020 - 08:41 PM.

[Willard Phule]

The6thMessenger, on 17 October 2020 - 08:33 PM, said:

No, I don't disregard it. But the idea of balance is equilibrium, not just "doing things differently". That is the main problem of your perspective. You just can't wrap your head with that.

I notice you mapped out the jam chance nicely, but again didn't pay attention to recharge time or heat as those are the factors used for "balancing." But, I can't blame you, not even the media publishes data that doesn't support their narrative. That seems to be par for the course nowadays.

Without a wall of math, the "balance" that PGI found involves IS weaponry being heavier and bulkier, but having lower heat and faster reload/recharge times. Clan weaponry is lighter with further range at the expense of more heat and slower recharge/reload times. That's across the board. Balistics, energy, missiles...it applies to all of them.

As for Clan DHS, use a little common sense. Clan XL engines are designed for Clan DHS. One would think that the heats sinks you use are the ones that are compatable with your engine, wouldn't one? As for IS XL and LEs, again, money is the determining factor. Now, I realize that the cost of things doesn't apply to an elite, comp player such as yourself that is sitting on more cbills that PGI itself, but newer players don't have your advantage. And that's where cost as a balancer comes in.