23 replies to this topic

[Davegt27]

so we have a lot of new players
anyone want to explain things ??



https://clips.twitch...scousMageSSSsss

Edited by Davegt27, 26 October 2020 - 09:56 AM.

[martian]

Davegt27, on 26 October 2020 - 09:56 AM, said:

so we have a lot of new players
anyone want to explain things ??



https://clips.twitch...scousMageSSSsss

Send him this info:

Quote

Heat Scale

Heat Scale is a system that penalizes a mech with extra heat generation when multiple weapon systems of the same or similar types are fired within a short time frame. It is commonly referred to as "Ghost Heat" by the community due to a lack of in-game information on how the system works and UI notifications when a penalty occurs. The goal of the system is to limit the practice of taking large quantities of the same or similar weapon systems ("Boating") and firing them at the same time ("Alpha Striking").

This is the direct description as provided by PGI.

I guess that somebody had a good laugh writing this piece.

[Monkey Lover]

Head over to https://mwo.smurfy-n...eapon_heatscale

Looks at the groups of weapons. Don't fire more than what they allow in the groups. If you take more than "allowed" fire wait half a second and fire again. This will keep you from gaining extra heat.

We all know this is stupid and but its not as stupidly beautiful as Direstar

Edited by Monkey Lover, 26 October 2020 - 01:19 PM.

[VonBruinwald]

Monkey Lover, on 26 October 2020 - 01:11 PM, said:

We all know this is stupid and but its not as stupidly beautiful as Direstar

A New Challenger Appears:

[Nightbird]

I would start with... when a molecule and an EM wave fall in love...

[Y E O N N E]

Lmao, it's called "ghost heat" because it's extra to the advertised stats of the weapons you have equipped, AKA "comes from nothing", not because the penalty isn't written anywhere. It's definitely written, in several places including in the game as that very same Twitch chat person stated.

[w0qj]

That's where we become confused; may we ask this:

==>Please confirm that Ghost Heat only limits players to firing a fixed number of weapons at once?
(ie: Ghost Heat disregards the cooldown period)?

eg:
1. For UAC weapons (both IS and Clan), suppose we have two (2) groups of UAC weapons (let's call it Group A, vs Group B UAC weapons, on the same mech). And assuming the normal limit of max UAC20 limits; no UAC20 hsl mech quirk.

a) Suppose we fire Group A's UAC20 (4 sec cooldown).

b ) Immediately thereafter we fire Group B's UAC20 (4 sec cooldown).

c) Then immediately thereafter (and still within Group A's 4-second cooldown period), we fire Group A's UAC20 again (yes, chance of weapon jamming).
==>Please confirm within this scenario (c) that there would be no ghost heat?

d) Ditto for Group B. Then immediately thereafter (and still within Group B's 4-second cooldown period), we fire Group B's UAC20 again (yes, chance of weapon jamming).
==>Please confirm within this scenario (d) that there would be no ghost heat?

<And please ignore the fact that our mech may overheat to death for firing so many consecutive UAC20 shots>.

Thank you for your time in replying in advance!

Monkey Lover, on 26 October 2020 - 01:11 PM, said:

Head over to https://mwo.smurfy-n...eapon_heatscale

Looks at the groups of weapons. Don't fire more than what they allow in the groups. If you take more than "allowed" fire wait half a second and fire again. This will keep you from gaining extra heat.

We all know this is stupid and but its not as stupidly beautiful as Direstar

Edited by w0qj, 26 October 2020 - 06:23 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

If more than the maximum number of weapons you can fire without ghost heat is fired within 0.5 seconds of that group, you will get ghost heat.

If you fire a second UAC/20 within less than 0.5 seconds of pulling the trigger on the first, you will get ghost heat. It doesn't matter if it's a double tap or not, ghost heat doesn't care. You cannot self-ghost with a single UAC/20 anymore. Used to be that you could self-ghost with a pair of AC/2s or a single UAC/20, but not since they put in a forced delay to preclude that from happening with UAC/20 double taps, and for AC/2 they just straight-up removed all ghost heat.

If you accurately place 0.51 seconds between each and every one of your UAC/20 trigger pulls, you will not get ghost heat. For the record, there are 0.11 seconds between rounds in a UAC burst, so the total duration for an IS UAC/20 is 0.22 seconds; for a Clan, it is 0.33 seconds. You will therefore always have to wait for the burst to finish before firing. Assuming your reaction times are in the ballpark of 0.25 seconds, just waiting for the burst to finish before firing will be sufficient to avoid ghost heat.

[Monkey Lover]

w0qj, on 26 October 2020 - 06:19 PM, said:

And please ignore the fact that our mech may overheat to death for firing so many consecutive UAC20 shots>. Thank you for your time in replying in advance!

Miss Greene i think did a good job answering the question. Biggest take is that it has nothing to do with cooldown as it doesn a 0.5 second delay between firing the groups.

If you fire A then 4.0 seconds(100% cool down of weapon) then B with no extra heat.
If you fire A then 0.5 seconds(12% of cool down) then B with no extra heat
If you fire A then 0.5 seconds then B then" wait about 3 second for A to come up then A again no extra heat
If you fire A then 0.4 seconds then B with lots of extra heat.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 26 October 2020 - 10:52 PM.

[LordNothing]

absolute noobs guide to ghost heat:

ghost heat is a convoluted mechanic that keeps you from having lots of fun with absurd instagib alpha strikes. it gives you more heat if you fire more than an arbitrary number of weapons of similar type. pay attention to your warnings in the mech lab, as they will indicate if your mech is equipped with ghost heat. your first encounter will probably be you testing the 12 ermls on your brand new nova and then promptly exploding.

ghost heat is often overcome by splitting your weapons into 2 separate groups and firing them with about a half a second of delay between them. this is how pro players fire absurd numbers of erlls without exploding. hsl quirks also let you cheat ghost heat as well, so look for those. ghost heat is implemented in a completely arbitrary and hard to decipher way. so best way is to avoid building mechs that have a gh warning at first. later as you gain skill, go nuts.

[General Solo]

I remember six ppc black out stalkers.
Where the whole team could lose a game and the whole not see the enemy till their dead.
Focus Fire Shoot, Dead Mech, Shutdown no heat damage, repeat x 12 ez. gg wp close

[w0qj]

[Horrified]So I've been playing with ghost heat for the past few months!
Usually I worked with two groups of same/similar weapons within same "smurfy" heat-linked penalty group (eg: total of four (4) UAC5 in groups of two), but firing both groups A+B within 0.1 seconds of each other![/Horrified]

THANK YOU all for letting me know about this 0.5 second ghost heat-linked penalty trigger...was not aware of it!

Miss Greene, on 26 October 2020 - 06:30 PM, said:

If more than the maximum number of weapons you can fire without ghost heat is fired within 0.5 seconds of that group, you will get ghost heat.

If you fire a second UAC/20 within less than 0.5 seconds of pulling the trigger on the first, you will get ghost heat. It doesn't matter if it's a double tap or not, ghost heat doesn't care. You cannot self-ghost with a single UAC/20 anymore. Used to be that you could self-ghost with a pair of AC/2s or a single UAC/20, but not since they put in a forced delay to preclude that from happening with UAC/20 double taps, and for AC/2 they just straight-up removed all ghost heat.

If you accurately place 0.51 seconds between each and every one of your UAC/20 trigger pulls, you will not get ghost heat. For the record, there are 0.11 seconds between rounds in a UAC burst, so the total duration for an IS UAC/20 is 0.22 seconds; for a Clan, it is 0.33 seconds. You will therefore always have to wait for the burst to finish before firing. Assuming your reaction times are in the ballpark of 0.25 seconds, just waiting for the burst to finish before firing will be sufficient to avoid ghost heat.

Funny you mentioned the Nova + 12xERML; that's exactly what I tried before yesterday!

Needless I was also working with ghost heat: firing within 0.1 seconds both Group A (6xERML) and Group B (6xERML).
Eventually died of overheating damage obviously...

Will revisit the Nova again, to see if it works any better sans ghost heat...

LordNothing, on 27 October 2020 - 12:35 AM, said:

Absolute noobs guide to ghost heat:

...your first encounter will probably be you testing the 12 ermls on your brand new nova and then promptly exploding.

ghost heat is often overcome by splitting your weapons into 2 separate groups and firing them with about a half a second of delay between them. this is how pro players fire absurd numbers of erlls without exploding. hsl quirks also let you cheat ghost heat as well, so look for those. ghost heat is implemented in a completely arbitrary and hard to decipher way. so best way is to avoid building mechs that have a gh warning at first. later as you gain skill, go nuts.

[Aidan Crenshaw]

w0qj, on 27 October 2020 - 06:34 AM, said:

Will revisit the Nova again, to see if it works any better sans ghost heat...

12 ER ML on the nova are still unworkably hot, even if you don't trigger ghost heat.

[LordNothing]

i think my favorite nova config is 2 uac5s. not in the arms though.

[Heavy Money]

Does the .5s ghost heat timer on lasers start when the laser shot begins, or ends?

[Brauer]

w0qj, on 27 October 2020 - 06:34 AM, said:

[Horrified]So I've been playing with ghost heat for the past few months!
Usually I worked with two groups of same/similar weapons within same &quot;smurfy&quot; heat-linked penalty group (eg: total of four (4) UAC5 in groups of two), but firing both groups A+B within 0.1 seconds of each other![/Horrified]

THANK YOU all for letting me know about this 0.5 second ghost heat-linked penalty trigger...was not aware of it!

You should know there are plenty of cases where you can just eat ghost heat. 4uac5s on the IS side are perfectly fine (these don't ghost according to smurfy), 4uac5s clan side is also workable even with ghost heat, but the question is more why you're only toating 4uac5s on a clan mech.

Heavy Money, on 27 October 2020 - 09:59 AM, said:

Does the .5s ghost heat timer on lasers start when the laser shot begins, or ends?

Begins.

[Y E O N N E]

It's also worth pointing out that ghost heat is exponential. The penalties get stiffer the further you go over the weapon limit. Firing one more Large Laser than the allowed three is doable. Firing two more? That's a hefty, hefty spike. Three more? You're melting.

Ghost heat will also use the harshest penalty available to the group. That is to say, if you are firing a bundle of different weapons that have shared ghost heat groups, then the ghost heat that will be applied to you will be the biggest allowed. So if I fire two Gauss and one ERPPC, I'm going to get slapped with the same amount of ghost heat as if I'd fired three ERPPC; note, that's ghost heat, not base heat, so it's still cooler than actually firing three ERPPC.

[chevy42083]

Another way to 'manage' it is a main firing group under the ghost heat thresthold, and a secondary group that's either equal, or chain firing.

For example, My Jester is 6 MPL. I generally just eat the ghost heat as a matter of simplicity. Its PACKED with heatsinks and can usually handle it.
BUT... on a hot map, or after losing heatsinks to crits.... I have them ALL set as chain fire on Mouse button 2. Lets you hit hard, but manage when you get close to red lining.
Lots of similar setups... you want that hard initial hit, or finishing blow... but to be able to manage the heat too.

I want to map a button to fire 2 groups, and setup the lasers 1/2 and 1/2, both chain fire. This means it'll basically be a constant stream of lasers (2 at a time, not 1), but without ghost heat. Its the most you can possibly fire with no rest time, and also no ghost heat.

[martian]

How typical for PGI: Even though the ghost heat has been a part of the game for many years, you can find no detailed info in the PGI's own in-game 'Mechlab except "You are not allowed to fire these two weapons together / You are not allowed to fire no more than these two weapons together".

Edited by martian, 31 October 2020 - 10:48 AM.

[Brauer]

chevy42083, on 30 October 2020 - 11:07 AM, said:

Another way to 'manage' it is a main firing group under the ghost heat thresthold, and a secondary group that's either equal, or chain firing.

For example, My Jester is 6 MPL. I generally just eat the ghost heat as a matter of simplicity. Its PACKED with heatsinks and can usually handle it.
BUT... on a hot map, or after losing heatsinks to crits.... I have them ALL set as chain fire on Mouse button 2. Lets you hit hard, but manage when you get close to red lining.
Lots of similar setups... you want that hard initial hit, or finishing blow... but to be able to manage the heat too.

I want to map a button to fire 2 groups, and setup the lasers 1/2 and 1/2, both chain fire. This means it'll basically be a constant stream of lasers (2 at a time, not 1), but without ghost heat. Its the most you can possibly fire with no rest time, and also no ghost heat.

6MPL does not ghost. Having a chainfire group is fine (I have one on any mech I can because you can use it to bait people who are shielding back in) but please don't give bad information about ghost heat.

FWIW on the Jester I'd probably put torso lasers on M1, arm lasers on M2, and then chainfire on 3 and 4.

EDIT: Chainfiring when not trying to bait someone in or just barely finish off a mech/component when running hot is bad. You want to alpha as much as possible. A constant stream of lasers just means you're spreading your damage rather than concentrating it.

Edited by Brauer, 30 October 2020 - 01:47 PM.