690 replies to this topic

[Kodiak Jorgensson]

Wild Kadabra, on 09 December 2020 - 02:14 PM, said:

A quirk that I would love to see is an 8-Piece quirk that allows certain clan mechs to have 15 points of damage to a single location.

This 8-Piece bonus quirk would be limited to mechs that only have one ERPPC in their standard configuration and PERHAP some mechs that are iconic ERPPC wielding mechs.

Examples:

Summoner Prime
Viper B
Ice Ferret Prime
Huntsman B
Black Lanner A
Mad Dog A
Executioner B

Mechs that could POSSIBLY also qualify as intended ERPPC boats:

Adder Prime
Nova A
Hellbringer Prime
Warhawk Prime

This bonus would be exclusive to 8-Pods.

This would make some of those under performers fun to play no doubt, Ice Ferret and Viper with a proper cERPPC would be fun to pilot.

[chaosshade2638]

How about redoing sets of eight for mechs with bonuses that don't make sense?

Blood Asp is a GREAT example of this issue.
BAS-Prime: This mech is designed around Gauss Rifles, the existing quirks make no sense.
- Missile Cooldown -15% (the mech only has one missile hardpoint and NO ONE loads missiles in it)
- Heavy Laser Heat Generation -5% (this hardly makes an impact over the course of a match)
Improvements:
- Critical Hit -25% (so the Gauss Rifles don't explode when critted out), -37% with skills
- Heavy Laser Heat Generation -10% (5% hardly has an impact, 10% is a HUGE bonus!)

BAS-A: I don't have any problems with this one
BAS-B: I don't have any problems with this one

BAS-C: This mech is built ballistics but the set of eight quirks don't reflect this
- Energy Cooldown -15% (the mech only has ONE energy hardpoint, what's the reason for this quirk?)
- Torso Yaw +5 (the mech already has good yaw, this is pointless)
Improvements:
- Ballistic Cooldown -15% (again, the mech is built around ballistics, this would make a lot more sense)
- Ballistic Velocity +10% (more speed is more better for ballistic mechs)

BAS-D: Reliance on ballistics and energy make the quirks for this mech a bit odd.
- Range +5% (too small a bonus)
- Acceleration Rate +10% (I guess it's good for Assaults so they can move around the field more easily)
- Deceleration Rate +10% (see above)
Improvements:
- Range +10%
- UAC Jam Chance -10% (the trio of UACs in the base design makes this a good choice)
- Energy Heat -10% (heavy lasers and ER Large Lasers generate A LOT of heat)

BAS-RA: I don't have a problem with this mech.

Overall the Blood Asp could become a much better mech from the factory with some changes. I can already see a lot of new designs based around the quirks to keep the game fresh or even introduce a new meta.

Edited by chaosshade2638, 09 December 2020 - 02:35 PM.

[VileKnight]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 07 December 2020 - 09:57 AM, said:

I'm gonna repeat what I said several years ago, remove side torso destruction penalties (including death) and make survivability more tangible by allowing the different engines to boost torso internals/armor (standard engine adds 50%, light engines get 25%, XL engines work the same but without the Clan XL torso penalty). If that isn't enough, you can copy what a mod did from the MW4 days and allow the standard and light engines to have higher heat caps.

With respect, this seems like a really bad idea. Engine choice boosting survivability? That doesn't make a lot of sense. TTK is in a decent place. I don't think an Anni needs even more armor because they took a std engine over a light or xl.

As I have said before, there does need to be some level of separation between Clan and IS tech. Making them the same just blurs the line between factions, which takes away from the immersion of the game. IS has some strengths over Clan, and vice versa. We do not need to take away the penalty to IS XL for popping a torso.

What we can do is take away that silly heat spike, but I think that is for another thread.

[Forgeling]

The side torso destruction reducing mech speed seems reasonable. Losing some of the engine heat sinks also makes sense to me but I agree they should take some of the heat with them when they go rather than adding heat. So if, for example you have an XL engine with 10 heat sinks and lose a side torso you should lose 2 of the heat sinks but you should also lose 20% of your current heat at the same time you lose 20% of that heat capacity.

[Will9761]

Revisiting some of these high voted mechs from Gas Guzzler's poll, I can see the purposes that of these mech can play in MWO:

Inner Sphere:
Lights
Hollander - While I don't understand the appeal of the Hollander, I can see it being a fun mech to ride in. But how the Hollander II will be handled remains to be seen.
Owens - I can see this as a stronger version of an Omni Jenner. The only thing it has going for it are the flexibility of its omnipods.

Mediums
Chimera - I can see it as a good skirmisher due to its speed, but it needs more variants to make it viable.
Men Shen - When you look at the Men Shen, it is obvious that it's an IS equivalent of the Black Lanner. Same tonnage, Same speed with MASC, flexible omnipods, both even have ECM variants. Can't deny that.

Heavies
Crusader - You are getting a more flexible Catapult out of it. One variant has ECM, which hasn't been found in any other 65 ton mechs and their variants.
Avatar - Given the fact that the Avatar was made from Mad Dogs, it makes sense that the IS should have their equivalent of it. Unlike It's Clan cousin, the Avatar has a Jumper Variant with the AV1-OF.

Assaults
Longbow - I just want the Unseens in MWO.
Sunder - These Sunder variants have the firepower, omnipods and armor to boot. The Samual variant as a hero Mech...Oh boy. That variant would embarrass the Dire Wolf.

Clans:
Lights
Locust IIC - This will be the first Clan BattleMech in the 25 ton slot.
Fire Moth (Dasher) - I just want this to be done and over with. I get that can't go fast for its traditional speed, but unless a consensus can be done, I don't see this being in MWO. It will probably be passed over in favor for a Clan MASC Light like the Hellion or Baboon (Howler). If it does happen, it will be the first 20-ton OmniMech with MASC.

Mediums
Shadow Hawk IIC - It could add some variety to the 45 to Clan Mechs by being the first Clan BattleMech. The main variant could be considered a Clan Dervish or a BattleMech version of the Pakhet.
Grendel (Mongrel) - Fast mover, variants with a good variety. It has some potential in the 45 ton Clan bracket.

Heavies
Grizzly - I can see the Grizzly acting like a heavily armed Shadow Hawk. The 2 variant has some good potential in brawling. The rest of the variants I hope can be good.
Crossbow - Fast moving Clan Catapult with an ECM variant.

Assaults
Stone Rhino (Behemoth) - I can see this beast of a machine being a BattleMech version of the Dire Wolf.
Turkina - If the Executioner is a fast mobile assault mech, then I can see the Turkina acting as heavy hitting platform. In a way, it could be the Clan's equivalent to the Nightstar.

Edited by Will9761, 14 December 2020 - 03:00 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

VileKnight, on 10 December 2020 - 10:07 AM, said:

With respect, this seems like a really bad idea. Engine choice boosting survivability? That doesn't make a lot of sense. TTK is in a decent place. I don't think an Anni needs even more armor because they took a std engine over a light or xl.

They could easily reduce some armor/internal quirks because a lot of these EXIST not because of bad hitboxes but because some mechs just struggle with the fact the run inferior engines. The game will have to change, but again, the whole point is to make standard engines legitimate choices for Clan mechs and making IS XL and Light engine more competitive and worthwhile for the tonnage.

In fact I would say a solid chunk of defensive quirks on the IS side are because engines eat so much tonnage with no real bonus compared to Clans. Scratch that, quirks on the whole started as a bandaid to balance the tech bases and still very much are that way today and engines are one of the main sources of that tech base imbalance (also reduces usefulness of standard engine Clan mechs, which some Clan omnis have).

VileKnight, on 10 December 2020 - 10:07 AM, said:

As I have said before, there does need to be some level of separation between Clan and IS tech. Making them the same just blurs the line between factions, which takes away from the immersion of the game. IS has some strengths over Clan, and vice versa. We do not need to take away the penalty to IS XL for popping a torso.

Removing side torso death does not make them the same :-/, that's quite the leap there. If the only thing making IS unique is an engine that seldom gets used because of how easy they are to kill, then consider your dream already dead. The light engine is just a heavier Clan XL so it's not like they are unique anymore to begin with so your argument kinda falls flat. Also they share the same standard engine so how do you address that issue of balancing the engines even within tech bases without something like I suggest?

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 10 December 2020 - 03:53 PM.

[3RoyalStar1]

Yeah more classic mechs like longbow, wasp,crusader

[VileKnight]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 10 December 2020 - 03:22 PM, said:

They could easily reduce some armor/internal quirks because a lot of these EXIST not because of bad hitboxes but because some mechs just struggle with the fact the run inferior engines. The game will have to change, but again, the whole point is to make standard engines legitimate choices for Clan mechs and making IS XL and Light engine more competitive and worthwhile for the tonnage.

I'd really like to understand where you are coming from, but I just don't get it. Why do we need to change things to make an engine type more legitimate? What is this struggle you refer to? Do you have any data to back up these claims, or are you running on opinion here?

Can I ask a sincere question? Are you familiar with BT lore? Are you aware of how few Clan mechs actually use std engines? XL Engines are the "standard" for Clan mechs. Std engines were just not something that was common for Clan mechs. Using a STD engine was the exception, not the rule. We need to move past that. That is not even getting to the fact that in omnimechs you can't change the engine. As someone who plays Clan mechs about 95% of the time.... you know how many times I have said to myself "crap! I need to use a standard engine for this mech"? Zero. Never crossed my mind. Ever.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 10 December 2020 - 03:22 PM, said:

In fact I would say a solid chunk of defensive quirks on the IS side are because engines eat so much tonnage with no real bonus compared to Clans. Scratch that, quirks on the whole started as a bandaid to balance the tech bases and still very much are that way today and engines are one of the main sources of that tech base imbalance (also reduces usefulness of standard engine Clan mechs, which some Clan omnis have).

Removing side torso death does not make them the same :-/, that's quite the leap there. If the only thing making IS unique is an engine that seldom gets used because of how easy they are to kill, then consider your dream already dead. The light engine is just a heavier Clan XL so it's not like they are unique anymore to begin with so your argument kinda falls flat. Also they share the same standard engine so how do you address that issue of balancing the engines even within tech bases without something like I suggest?

So, making IS XL’s behave the same as Clan XL’s doesn’t make them the same? How is that a leap again? I didn’t claim that this was the only difference, but removing that difference DOES bring the two techs closer together.

The engines are not even close to a majority or plurality of the tech imbalance between the two sides. If you said say…. DHS take up less space? Endo and FF take up half the space? Weapons do more damage, take up less space, and (with rare exception) weight less?

Again, I am trying to understand the fascination with engines you have. I 100% support your thinking outside of the box here, but it feels like it’s barking up the wrong tree in this case.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

VileKnight, on 10 December 2020 - 07:08 PM, said:

I'd really like to understand where you are coming from, but I just don't get it. Why do we need to change things to make an engine type more legitimate?

VileKnight, on 10 December 2020 - 07:08 PM, said:

you know how many times I have said to myself "crap! I need to use a standard engine for this mech"? Zero. Never crossed my mind. Ever.

That's kinda my point, it is dumb to have an option in a game that isn't really an option. This is an arena combat game, having "upgrades" or progression that impacts your gameplay is a stupid idea (yes I'm aware even big games do this, like CoD, but it is popular in spite of it). Things like this are part of the reason the NPE is so terrible, there are so many new player traps (stock mechs being downright garbage doesn't help either) because there are essentially many hidden golden rules to follow when building mechs that players have to "learn". Hell some people have been playing this game for years and either don't care or still haven't really learned them (often promoting misinformation on top of that).

The goal of the game should be to have diverse metas, the more diverse the meta is, the healthier the game. No one has liked periods of the game where one thing was just crushingly dominant (remember poptarts that everyone complained about for 2 years).

VileKnight, on 10 December 2020 - 07:08 PM, said:

Can I ask a sincere question? Are you familiar with BT lore?

Yes I've played TT and I'm an avid fan of the lore but I don't care because this isn't TT. This is not the same kind of game.. This game has always struggled with trying to be too true to TT and not just trying to make a good arena combat game that captures the core gameplay of stompy robots most of us love and still be true to the spirit of Battletech even though it doesn't follow the letter of the law of it. One game is a turned based strategy game, the other is an online arena FPS, they cannot follow the same rules and both thrive.

VileKnight, on 10 December 2020 - 07:08 PM, said:

So, making IS XL’s behave the same as Clan XL’s doesn’t make them the same? How is that a leap again? I didn’t claim that this was the only difference, but removing that difference DOES bring the two techs closer together.

So it is a leap because being more similar =/= being the same. Second is there are more things that make each tech base distinctive outside that. Now could that distinction be better? Sure, would love it to be but survivability like the side torso death removes too many options for a majority of weight classes to be actually making it distinctive.

VileKnight, on 10 December 2020 - 07:08 PM, said:

The engines are not even close to a majority or plurality of the tech imbalance between the two sides. If you said say…. DHS take up less space? Endo and FF take up half the space? Weapons do more damage, take up less space, and (with rare exception) weight less?

There is a lot that have issues, but until the light engine joined the game 3 years ago as a solid middle ground, your options were pretty limited and this hurt what weapons you could pick (which considering the game was dictated by the BESM for the longest time meant XLs with lasers). Take Gauss in a side torso? Hell no, not with side torso death on the table. Endo/FF/DHS reduce either your alpha or sustainability, but engines differences are typically more than Endo or FF will make. DHS doesn't really matter because rarely do you have the tonnage to really use that space anyway (because weapons and engines are so damn heavy).

I mean on the low end the difference between an 255 XL and a 255 LFE is 3 tons, high end with 325 XL and a 325 LFE is 6 tons. So let's assume my change went in, as a 100 tonner, you could either run a 325 XL instead of the 325 LFE and forgo Endo or you could stay LFE and get 25% more overall health for your torso sections (which just by armor standards is equivalent to roughly 2.25 tons of armor). That's more than a change to make ES/FF/DHS equal because none of those can counter that side torso death that is an absolute trap for pretty much anything heavy and above (and probably half of the mediums) in other words, none of those have the direct gameplay detriment like engines can.



Another way to think of this: IS XLs essentially make IS mechs glass cannons, but without the cannon because IS firepower is still typically lower than a Clan mech. So which is easier? Making engines just more survivable for the IS or buffing IS weapons to actually give them the cannon portion. Keeping in mind that the cannon portion doesn't solve the Clan XL vs STD engine or really fix the plight of the IS XL because the LFE gets the same firepower benefit.



If I'm being honest, MWO never learned anything from the previous Mechwarrior series games. There is a reason MW4 decided to ditch the classic mech construction rules, and it was for similar reasons to all of the above but that's neither here nor there.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 11 December 2020 - 11:20 AM.

[Slambot]

Hi Big D:

I have made a comprehensive list of all chasis with my opinion as to just how badly each one needs to be re-scaled based on how good the mech is, how often I see it used at my level, and how the mech feels when you play it. These opinions are not mine alone but I have had input from several other avid mechwarriors.

Each mech is rated according to 4 categories"

F= Fine
S= Slight 0-5% reduction
M= moderate 5-10% reduction
C= Critical 10% + reduction... ie. its a barn door...shoot it

Lights:

Adder: Slight
ACH: Slight
COM: Fine
COU: Slight to Moderate
FS9: Critical
FLE: Fine
INC: Critical
JVN: Slight
JR7: Slight-Moderate
KFX: Slight
MLX: Fine (needs arm armor buff only)
OSR: Slight
PNT: Slight
PIR: Fine
RVN: Moderate
SDR: Fine
UM: Fine
WLF: Slight

Mediums

ACW: Fine
ASN: Fine
BKL: Moderate
BJ: Slight to Moderate
BSW: Fine to Slight
CN9: Slight
CDA: Slight
CRB: Fine
DV: Moderate
ENF: Moderate
GRF: Moderate
HSN: Slight
HBK: Slight
HBK IIC: Slight
HMN: Moderate
IFR: Slight
KTO: Moderate
NVA: Slight
PHX: Moderate
SHC: Slight
SHD: Moderate
SCR: Slight-Moderate
TBT: Critical
UZL: Critical
VGL: Slight (yes, I'm aware that its one of the best mechs in game)
VIND: Moderate
VPR: Critical
VL: Moderate (quirk reduction warranted)
WVR: Moderate (see above)

Heavies

ARC: Critical
BL-6: Critical
CTF: Critical
CAT: Moderate
CHP: Moderate
DRG: Moderate
EBJ: Moderate
GHR: Moderate
HBR: Slight
HLF: Critical
JM6: Critical (supposed to be short and stumpy)
LBK: Slight
MDD: Slight
MAD: Moderate
NTG: Slight
NCT: Moderate
ON1: Slight
ON1 IIC: Slight
QKD: Moderate
RFL: Critical
RFL IIC: Slight
RGH: Slight
SMN: Moderate
SNS: Moderate-Critical
TNS: Critical ++
TDR: Moderate
TBR: Critical (needs a massive un-nerfing tbh)
WHM: Moderate-Critical

Assaults

ANH: Critical
AS7: Critical
BNC: Critical
BLR: Critical
BAS: Slight
CGR: Slight
COR: Moderate
CP: Slight
DWF: Moderate
EXE: Critical
FNR: Moderate
GAR: Critical
HTM: Critical
HGN: Moderate
HGN IIC: Slight
KGC: Critical
KDK: Moderate (see Timby)
MCII: Slight (yes, I know its the best mech in game...)
MAD-4A: Moderate
MAD IIC: Moderate
MAL: Critical
NSR: Moderate (bring those arms in a bit)
STK: Critical
SNV: Moderate
VTR: Moderate
WHM IIC: Slight
WHK: Moderate
ZEU: Moderate-Critical


Yes, I know I have suggested shrinking most mechs. Shrinking can solve many problems with hitboxes etc. (except the jenner, jeebus) Many may disagree. To get these values, I looked at the smallest mechs and compared them to the biggest, and decided something was outta whack. Also, as noted above, I have played all of these mechs for more than 50 matches each. I have at least one mastered mech from each chasis. I know that my results may not be anyone else's, but I have asked many other mechwarriors whose opinions matter to me and we came to a consensus. This list is just supposed to be a starting point for discussion. The mechs listed as Critical are the ones that most need the love. Thank you.

Edit: Just for the Osiris due to last minute input.

Edited by Slambot, 11 December 2020 - 07:41 PM.

[Ragedog4]

Slambot, on 11 December 2020 - 07:38 PM, said:

Hi Big D:

I have made a comprehensive list of all chasis with my opinion as to just how badly each one needs to be re-scaled based on how good the mech is, how often I see it used at my level, and how the mech feels when you play it. These opinions are not mine alone but I have had input from several other avid mechwarriors.

Each mech is rated according to 4 categories"

F= Fine
S= Slight 0-5% reduction
M= moderate 5-10% reduction
C= Critical 10% + reduction... ie. its a barn door...shoot it

Lights:

Adder: Slight
ACH: Slight
COM: Fine
COU: Slight to Moderate
FS9: Critical
FLE: Fine
INC: Critical
JVN: Slight
JR7: Slight-Moderate
KFX: Slight
MLX: Fine (needs arm armor buff only)
OSR: Fine
PNT: Slight
PIR: Fine
RVN: Moderate
SDR: Fine
UM: Fine
WLF: Slight

Mediums

ACW: Fine
ASN: Fine
BKL: Moderate
BJ: Slight to Moderate
BSW: Fine to Slight
CN9: Slight
CDA: Slight
CRB: Fine
DV: Moderate
ENF: Moderate
GRF: Moderate
HSN: Slight
HBK: Slight
HBK IIC: Slight
HMN: Moderate
IFR: Slight
KTO: Moderate
NVA: Slight
PHX: Moderate
SHC: Slight
SHD: Moderate
SCR: Slight-Moderate
TBT: Critical
UZL: Critical
VGL: Slight (yes, I'm aware that its one of the best mechs in game)
VIND: Moderate
VPR: Critical
VL: Moderate (quirk reduction warranted)
WVR: Moderate (see above)

Heavies

ARC: Critical
BL-6: Critical
CTF: Critical
CAT: Moderate
CHP: Moderate
DRG: Moderate
EBJ: Moderate
GHR: Moderate
HBR: Slight
HLF: Critical
JM6: Critical (supposed to be short and stumpy)
LBK: Slight
MDD: Slight
MAD: Moderate
NTG: Slight
NCT: Moderate
ON1: Slight
ON1 IIC: Slight
QKD: Moderate
RFL: Critical
RFL IIC: Slight
RGH: Slight
SMN: Moderate
SNS: Moderate-Critical
TNS: Critical ++
TDR: Moderate
TBR: Critical (needs a massive un-nerfing tbh)
WHM: Moderate-Critical

Assaults

ANH: Critical
AS7: Critical
BNC: Critical
BLR: Critical
BAS: Slight
CGR: Slight
COR: Moderate
CP: Slight
DWF: Moderate
EXE: Critical
FNR: Moderate
GAR: Critical
HTM: Critical
HGN: Moderate
HGN IIC: Slight
KGC: Critical
KDK: Moderate (see Timby)
MCII: Slight (yes, I know its the best mech in game...)
MAD-4A: Moderate
MAD IIC: Moderate
MAL: Critical
NSR: Moderate (bring those arms in a bit)
STK: Critical
SNV: Moderate
VTR: Moderate
WHM IIC: Slight
WHK: Moderate
ZEU: Moderate-Critical


Yes, I know I have suggested shrinking most mechs. Shrinking can solve many problems with hitboxes etc. (except the jenner, jeebus) Many may disagree. To get these values, I looked at the smallest mechs and compared them to the biggest, and decided something was outta whack. Also, as noted above, I have played all of these mechs for more than 50 matches each. I have at least one mastered mech from each chasis. I know that my results may not be anyone else's, but I have asked many other mechwarriors whose opinions matter to me and we came to a consensus. This list is just supposed to be a starting point for discussion. The mechs listed as Critical are the ones that most need the love. Thank you.

Most of these are right on so I totally am down for this, LETS DO IT PEEPS!

[Valec]

Slambot, on 11 December 2020 - 07:38 PM, said:

Hi Big D:

I have made a comprehensive list of all chasis with my opinion as to just how badly each one needs to be re-scaled based on how good the mech is, how often I see it used at my level, and how the mech feels when you play it. These opinions are not mine alone but I have had input from several other avid mechwarriors.

Each mech is rated according to 4 categories"

F= Fine
S= Slight 0-5% reduction
M= moderate 5-10% reduction
C= Critical 10% + reduction... ie. its a barn door...shoot it

Lights:

Adder: Slight
ACH: Slight
COM: Fine
COU: Slight to Moderate
FS9: Critical
FLE: Fine
INC: Critical
JVN: Slight
JR7: Slight-Moderate
KFX: Slight
MLX: Fine (needs arm armor buff only)
OSR: Slight
PNT: Slight
PIR: Fine
RVN: Moderate
SDR: Fine
UM: Fine
WLF: Slight

Mediums

ACW: Fine
ASN: Fine
BKL: Moderate
BJ: Slight to Moderate
BSW: Fine to Slight
CN9: Slight
CDA: Slight
CRB: Fine
DV: Moderate
ENF: Moderate
GRF: Moderate
HSN: Slight
HBK: Slight
HBK IIC: Slight
HMN: Moderate
IFR: Slight
KTO: Moderate
NVA: Slight
PHX: Moderate
SHC: Slight
SHD: Moderate
SCR: Slight-Moderate
TBT: Critical
UZL: Critical
VGL: Slight (yes, I'm aware that its one of the best mechs in game)
VIND: Moderate
VPR: Critical
VL: Moderate (quirk reduction warranted)
WVR: Moderate (see above)

Heavies

ARC: Critical
BL-6: Critical
CTF: Critical
CAT: Moderate
CHP: Moderate
DRG: Moderate
EBJ: Moderate
GHR: Moderate
HBR: Slight
HLF: Critical
JM6: Critical (supposed to be short and stumpy)
LBK: Slight
MDD: Slight
MAD: Moderate
NTG: Slight
NCT: Moderate
ON1: Slight
ON1 IIC: Slight
QKD: Moderate
RFL: Critical
RFL IIC: Slight
RGH: Slight
SMN: Moderate
SNS: Moderate-Critical
TNS: Critical ++
TDR: Moderate
TBR: Critical (needs a massive un-nerfing tbh)
WHM: Moderate-Critical

Assaults

ANH: Critical
AS7: Critical
BNC: Critical
BLR: Critical
BAS: Slight
CGR: Slight
COR: Moderate
CP: Slight
DWF: Moderate
EXE: Critical
FNR: Moderate
GAR: Critical
HTM: Critical
HGN: Moderate
HGN IIC: Slight
KGC: Critical
KDK: Moderate (see Timby)
MCII: Slight (yes, I know its the best mech in game...)
MAD-4A: Moderate
MAD IIC: Moderate
MAL: Critical
NSR: Moderate (bring those arms in a bit)
STK: Critical
SNV: Moderate
VTR: Moderate
WHM IIC: Slight
WHK: Moderate
ZEU: Moderate-Critical


Yes, I know I have suggested shrinking most mechs. Shrinking can solve many problems with hitboxes etc. (except the jenner, jeebus) Many may disagree. To get these values, I looked at the smallest mechs and compared them to the biggest, and decided something was outta whack. Also, as noted above, I have played all of these mechs for more than 50 matches each. I have at least one mastered mech from each chasis. I know that my results may not be anyone else's, but I have asked many other mechwarriors whose opinions matter to me and we came to a consensus. This list is just supposed to be a starting point for discussion. The mechs listed as Critical are the ones that most need the love. Thank you.

Edit: Just for the Osiris due to last minute input.

I thoroughly approve of this message.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Rescaling based on how good a mech is is dumb, full stop. How good mechs are is not necessarily related to scale and will often come and go depending on meta shifts. So unless we are scaling every balance change (which again should be unnecessary) it simply shouldn't happen. Seems like a lot of wasted effort especially if they still don't have the tools to really do rescales fast and easy.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 11 December 2020 - 10:23 PM.

[Forgeling]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 11 December 2020 - 09:57 PM, said:

Rescaling based on how good a mech is is dumb, full stop. How good mechs are is not necessarily related to scale and will often come and go depending on meta shifts. So unless we are scaling every balance change (which again should be unnecessary) it simply shouldn't happen. Seems like a lot of wasted effort especially if they still don't have the tools to really do rescales fast and easy.

That may be so, but scaling based on role makes sense to do.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Forgeling, on 11 December 2020 - 10:51 PM, said:

That may be so, but scaling based on role makes sense to do.

Then it's already done. We really only have three roles in this game: lights/mediums (scout), mediums/heavies ("support"), heavies/assaults (your tanks and firepower). Honestly my only gripe with the mech sizes is the contrast but to reduce the contrast the smaller half of mechs would need more armor/internals. Ultimately this is what size should boil down to, relation to overall health.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 11 December 2020 - 11:25 PM.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

Problem by Mechs Scaling is the Artwork and his Evolution, by same desity no standard Legs,Hips,Arms with only little optical differences for Mechchassies (like Eathsiege)
and nur Rules for the Optical Design ..one Artist give small Cockpits, one big Glassdomes..nor Realtions to other Parts of the Mech...seeing the Ryoken ...from the first Designs in TR3055 to the modern Catalyst Minatures big Differences ,as Miniature he has now oversized Arms thats more looking like a Heavy or Assault as a Medium ,in the First designs Arms more like a Light mech..No one Artist try to build a standard from all Informations

Original 3055




MW3 Ryoken






New Catalyst Ryoken

Edited by MW Waldorf Statler, 13 December 2020 - 12:08 AM.

[Alreech]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 11 December 2020 - 10:56 PM, said:

Then it's already done. We really only have three roles in this game: lights/mediums (scout), mediums/heavies ("support"), heavies/assaults (your tanks and firepower). Honestly my only gripe with the mech sizes is the contrast but to reduce the contrast the smaller half of mechs would need more armor/internals. Ultimately this is what size should boil down to, relation to overall health.

MWO don't has that roles in Solo Quickplay.

• You don't need Scouts because all the battles are fought in the same 4 grids. Also the way ECM works (can't put them on the minimap, even you have clear sight on them and are outside the ECM range) prevents usefull scouts.
  
• Support is done by LRM boats, and the best LRM boats are assaults (tonnage for multiple launchers & ammunition secondary weapons and AMS / BAP / TAG / Targetting Computer).
  
• Tank/Firepower is damage dealing, the only way to get a high match score and rise in tiers. All Mechs, even the lights and mediums must be damage dealers.

All usefull damage dealing Mechs in MWO can mount many weapons of the same type or have one or two good placed hardpoints to mount one or two big weapons.
And the Mechs with few or bad placed hardpoints - like the Spiders - are useless (with the exception of a few ECM Variants).

And many Mechs can replace a small Weapon in a good Hardpoint with the biggest Weapon thanks to XL Engines and Endo Steel. You don't have to stick to an Centurion AH or a Hunchback if you want to run an AC 10 / 20, Gauss Rifle or RAC 5 on a medium IS Mech, many other mechs can replace their Machine Gun, AC 2/5 with an AC 10 / 20, RAC 5 or a Gauss Rifle.

So PGI can make new Mechs, but most of them will be useless in MWO. And that's the point in buying useless Mechs?

• Stinger & Wasp ? Not enough tonnage and hardpoints to be usefull as damage dealer, and Scouts are useless.
  
• Crusader? Either put 2x MRM 30/40 or multiple SRMs on that Mech to make it usefull, but the Catapult, the Dervish and the Quickdraw and the Warhammer 7S can do that too
  
• IS Omnis with XL-Engines? Either PGI buffs them with structure & armor quirks or the XL Engine will make them only usefull as LRM Boat.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Alreech, on 12 December 2020 - 04:34 AM, said:

MWO don't has that roles in Solo Quickplay.

• You don't need Scouts because all the battles are fought in the same 4 grids. Also the way ECM works (can't put them on the minimap, even you have clear sight on them and are outside the ECM range) prevents usefull scouts.
  
• Support is done by LRM boats, and the best LRM boats are assaults (tonnage for multiple launchers & ammunition secondary weapons and AMS / BAP / TAG / Targetting Computer).
  
• Tank/Firepower is damage dealing, the only way to get a high match score and rise in tiers. All Mechs, even the lights and mediums must be damage dealers.

So I'm gonna clear things up here, scouts aren't scouts because of electronics or anything, nor do they have to lack firepower (for example Piranha can technically scout just like a Lolcust or Cheetah can). The only thing that matters is the ability to get out of danger easily compared to other mechs. Support also aren't LRM boats, they are just units that don't have the firepower of assaults and typically use their speed to get wider angles from the main group. For example the Hunchie IICs are typically some form of support whether it be UAC2s or PPC poptart. You wanna work a bit away from the main group to get angles but not so far as a scout because you don't have the speed to regroup. That's legitimately the only real distinction between roles: ability to escape danger defines how far away from everyone else you can safely play and how much firepower you have (assaults typically being the cream of the crop).

12v12 Quickplay does make "scouts" less useful because you generally have a harder time catching an isolated mech because there are so many people to catch you on approach which is part of the reason I want 8v8, but you are right in that actually finding enemies are limited for scouts when you can't reliably alert friendlies to their position since they may not have/use VOIP. You also can't rely on the team to save you if the enemy squirrels after you.

Alreech, on 12 December 2020 - 04:34 AM, said:

So PGI can make new Mechs, but most of them will be useless in MWO. And that's the point in buying useless Mechs?

That's honestly been one of PGI's problems, relying too much on nostalgia to sell mech packs and no thought into how mechs fit into the game/meta.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 12 December 2020 - 10:05 AM.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

which Sense have Scouts by Maps who in 1 Minute is the first LOS to the Enemy ? and the most will small maps for fast fights like other Games ...other games have ressources for grinding and daylies , here nothing ,not one element in MWO have a Sense .For the Tactical Players and Unit Players the Maps to small,for teh Fast "Fastfood" players no Grinding or Technical Tree for other chasisies or Ressorces like War Thunder, Star conflict ,you can buy each chassies to each Time,and no one Mode have really Objectives or Missions...tahts the Problem for a Game thats not have a Gamedesigner since 5 Years

Edited by MW Waldorf Statler, 12 December 2020 - 11:53 PM.

[Alreech]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 12 December 2020 - 07:53 AM, said:

So I'm gonna clear things up here, scouts aren't scouts because of electronics or anything, nor do they have to lack firepower (for example Piranha can technically scout just like a Lolcust or Cheetah can). The only thing that matters is the ability to get out of danger easily compared to other mechs.

If they don't scout, why call them Scouts?
They are damage dealers that can run away.

Quote

Support also aren't LRM boats, they are just units that don't have the firepower of assaults and typically use their speed to get wider angles from the main group. For example the Hunchie IICs are typically some form of support whether it be UAC2s or PPC poptart. You wanna work a bit away from the main group to get angles but not so far as a scout because you don't have the speed to regroup. That's legitimately the only real distinction between roles: ability to escape danger defines how far away from everyone else you can safely play and how much firepower you have (assaults typically being the cream of the crop).

So Support are damage dealers that can't run away.
And can't support other Mechs with indirect LRM fire or AMS / ECM because they don't operate with the main group.
If they don't support, why call them Support?

Quote

That's honestly been one of PGI's problems, relying too much on nostalgia to sell mech packs and no thought into how mechs fit into the game/meta.

And most players buyed that nostalgia.

The meta is connected to the unrestricted Mechlab. If you want to sell Mechs it's not a good idea that you can rebuild their loadout with many other Mechs.
The Hunchback with it's AC 20 was obsolete after PGI introduced the Shadow Hawk that was also capable of carry an AC 20 (and use jump jets).

And also in this case most MWO players liked that unrestriced Mechlab because it made the game much easier.
You don't have to deal with the disadvantages of a certain Chassis (lack of tonnage or jump jets) if you can just use that build in a better Mech.