690 replies to this topic

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Brauer, on 16 December 2020 - 06:53 PM, said:

So there's no way to make a bunch of mechs decent with sized hardpoints because they just end up with potential loadouts that are garbage, whereas other mechs that get hardpoints that align with good loadouts get to dominate.

That's already true for quirks. Good quirks can make or break IS mechs (mostly due to IS tech being crappy but still). I'm not sure how you get that it is never possible though, seems like quite the leap or that your mind is honed to one specific implementation of sized hardpoints. Sized hardpoints can be implemented like most people suggest but that is kinda dumb imo (small, medium, large, huge, etc).

Brauer, on 16 December 2020 - 06:53 PM, said:

Sized-hardpoints do nothing to fix terrible hitboxes or horrible mixed weapon-type loadouts dictated by a mech's original design

Balance doesn't have to be only buffing...the whole point is to hamper or limit good mechs (specifically versatile ones). Does it work always? No. Is it useful to have in the toolkit to help control mechs that are OP or overly versatile? Yes.

Anyone who thinks this solves the need for quirks is naive, however it does allow for other ways to limit some abuse of some quirks by limiting what mechs can mount and control some of the overlap that we have in this game. That said I would rather see mechs be narrowed down to one variant before we see sized hardpoints. Sized hardpoints also don't really work well with TT construction rules, it works better if you can do what Mektek did and have different types and can allow and also segment them. For reference MW4 technically only allowed one type per section, the stuff you could do in the free version of MW4 was actually hax to allow for multiple in the same section (as well as the special types).

I think a lot of this may be due to some faulty assumptions, which I don't necessarily blame you on because there have been some bad suggestions around it, however to be clear all current loadouts COULD be allowed in a sized hardpoints system, the only thing that matters is the implementation and the actual limits that get put in place.

I've seen this work back in the MW4 mod days, like when AMS is limited to a select number of chassis' it can't actually boost the mechs that can mount it (since it can be seen as a nerf to other mechs).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 16 December 2020 - 07:50 PM.

[Forgeling]

This post mixes some new ideas and some repeats. I'm trying to combine everything from this thread that I think is a good idea into a single post.

MECHS

• New mech variants are always welcome. lots of people want entirely new frames but I'm interested in increasing the possible build which can be done either way. I personally love boating tiny weapons. I'd like to see 12 SRM2, 16 lasers, or 16 Machine Guns. As for melee, a simple solution could be bonus ramming damage when you have hands equipped.
  
• Rescaling for role and for fun is a must.
  
• I feel like fast mechs should get turning, accel, and deccel but slow mechs should get better torso speed.
  
• Set of 8 quirks should be Set of 4 so you can do two at once. Alternately, attaching the quirks to the omnipods themselves more often is also a good choice. Omnipods should be fully customizable. Many have stated that the set of 8 system actively discourages the very thing that's good about omnipods.
  
• Armour quirks for arms-only mechs is also a must.
  
• Quirks that encourage weird or substandard builds should be stronger to make it worth while. Heat scale limit quirks are very interesting and I'd love to see more stuff like snipers with 3 C-ER PPCs, or 3 C-ERLL.
  
• Weapon geometry needs a pass where everything is placed higher unless that's specifically meant to be a weakness. First weapon added should go in the most favourable position in descending order. Weapons need to come out of the front of things before coming out of the side is considered. The Shadowcat, for example, used to have beautiful front of arm PPCs until a ballistic slot shoved one aside even tho most pods don't have a ballistic there. The first weapon added to a SHC arm should always come out of the front reguardless of the weapon. Arm weapon mount points should never be underneath the arm. Keep them on the top or the sides of the arms. Torso weapon mount points should never be at the waist, move them up as high as possible but still aesthetically pleasing.
  
• Weapon scaling. A huge weapon on a light mech should look huge. A small weapon on an assault should look tiny.
  
• The Skill tree should give you a discount for the early skill points you buy. Perhaps 100, then 200, then 400, then 800, then 1600? Also, please remove the C-bill cost from the skill tree and find something else for veteran players to spend C-bills on instead. Possibly have fully skilled out mechs give a bonus to GXP earned.
  
• Mechs should be purchasable completely empty. No weapons, no engine, just a frame or omnipods. Refit kits should be purchasable that convert a mech from Mech-A into Mech-B of the same frame, for example.
  
• Additional sorts in the store and mechlab. Why can't the store be sorted by clan/IS? How about a search function for things like Jumpjets? There are so many mechs now that new players really need something like this and it would be very helpful for veterans as well.
  
• As for the IS XL engine for omnimechs....why not just use a light engine?

• Ghost heat needs more visibility.

• Max armour should be a round number, even if you switch between standard armour or ferro-fibrous armour.
  
• I'd love for the Jenner 2C to be a bit smaller or get more armour quirks or SOMETHING.
  
• Ongoing weapon balances are probably a good thing to bring back but maybe be a bit more flexible about how often they happen.
  
• The side torso destruction reducing mech speed seems reasonable. Losing some of the engine heat sinks also makes sense to me but I agree they should take some of the heat with them when they go rather than adding heat. So if, for example you have an XL engine with 10 heat sinks and lose a side torso you should lose 2 of the heat sinks but you should also lose 20% of your current heat at the same time you lose 20% of that heat capacity.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

The only new variant I'm willing to accept at the moment is the Viper F and that is because I love the Viper and it needs those arm hardpoints to keep up with the meta of other Clan scouts as it unlocks the ability to run 5E and 8B or 12B and 1E, but that is the only exception.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 18 December 2020 - 10:29 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Bumping the following:

Kingfisher
Sunder
Turkina
Hauptmann
Raptor
Templar
Argus

[Bowelhacker]

I know it's nice to dream, but give it up kids. You're not getting any new mechs.

[Will9761]

Bowelhacker, on 19 December 2020 - 05:09 PM, said:

I know it's nice to dream, but give it up kids. You're not getting any new mechs.

Well, that remains to be seen in 2021 my friend. For now, we will wait and see.

[Gas Guzzler]

Bowelhacker, on 19 December 2020 - 05:09 PM, said:

I know it's nice to dream, but give it up kids. You're not getting any new mechs.

Says who?

[Alreech]

Brauer, on 16 December 2020 - 06:53 PM, said:

The thing with sized hardpoints is it just restricts the loadouts available to mechs

Yeah, that's the point of a size restriction.
It's the same point as Ghost Heat that should restrict the loadouts by adding more heat if you mount to many weapons.

Quote

and further cements mechs with good sets of hardpoints as the top picks. So there's no way to make a bunch of mechs decent with sized hardpoints because they just end up with potential loadouts that are garbage, whereas other mechs that get hardpoints that align with good loadouts get to dominate.
Sized-hardpoints do nothing to fix terrible hitboxes or horrible mixed weapon-type loadouts dictated by a mech's original design.

How does the unrestriced mechlab fix the terrible hitboxes or horrible mixed weapon type loadouts?

With Ghost Heat.
And with over the top quirks like done for the Vindicator?

Quote

So sized-hardpoints don't save the AWS or the Centurion. Being one of the few mediums to carry a big ballistic would not save the Centurion from being bad. You'd still have a bunch of medium mechs boating lasers and srms, which are better weapons for mediums.

And boating Lasers & SRMs as only viable option for medium Mechs is good for a Mechwarrior Game because?

Bowelhacker, on 19 December 2020 - 05:09 PM, said:

I know it's nice to dream, but give it up kids. You're not getting any new mechs.

Oh, PGI could create something like a battle pass or season model with new Mechs for top tier buyers.

But most of those Mechs may be bad due mixed loadouts and terrible hitboxes or fixed IS-XL engines, so no one will use them...

Edited by Alreech, 20 December 2020 - 03:30 AM.

[Skydrive]

There are a few things I would love to see added to MWO and atleast one thing changed.

The thing I would like to see changed is the suicide system, the crediting of ones death from overheating and leg loss should go to whoever caused it. If subject A destroys subject B's side torso, and subject B's mech was using either an IS Light Engine or a Clan XL Engine, and the loss of the side torso causes the heat to spike by a certain amount past the new max capacity and Subject B dies within X amount of seconds, Subject A should be credited with the kill. Same applies to damaging the legs of a mech that falls or was jumping. If death occurs within X amount of seconds, only being counted while mech is on the ground, then Subject A is credited. Then there are Overheat deaths caused by Flamers. If a mech was brought past its threshold by a Flamer, assuming Subject A added a high enough percentage of heat to Subject B's potential heat, Subject A should get the credit.

Things I would like to see would of course be IS Omni mechs and new maps, but also a lot of Capellan mechs, two of which I remember seeing in MechCommander 2. Mechs with an odd design, not too far from Kurita's Samurai esque looking mechs.
Another thing on my list would be Melee, which would allow for other mechs to be added, but more then that I would love to see TSM. Give us a reason to shoot our lasers and PPCs into the sky, so that we may be going ZOOM. I do of course assume many, maybe most, if not all of the player base would start using TSM, but not for every mech since it would bring down the fire power potential... and I don't think there would be many LRM mechs utilizing it.

[DAEDALOS513]

Alreech, on 20 December 2020 - 03:27 AM, said:

And boating Lasers & SRMs as only viable option for medium Mechs is good for a Mechwarrior Game because?]

IKR.. agree with you Alreech.. Centurion is one of the best medium brawlers because of its' great agility, speed and quirks.. there's more to a mech than high mounts.. bad mounts don't matter much if you are in brawler range anyway.. some pilots maybe need to learn to find and take advantage of each mechs good points and use them properly.

Sine players ares stuck in their ways sticking to meta.. boring

Try Yen with ac20 and a snub.. best run with a lancemante.. just like any other brawler build:

A]0920l0|I@|Md|i^p\0|@Oq\0r80sP0|X?t`0u`0|@Ov80|@Ow404040
a5f4b336e36de5c57bbcff7fbffc211183073000000000000000080820101

Edited by DAEDALOS513, 20 December 2020 - 09:07 AM.

[3RoyalStar1]

The annihilator is to big

[Brauer]

Alreech, on 20 December 2020 - 03:27 AM, said:

Yeah, that's the point of a size restriction.
It's the same point as Ghost Heat that should restrict the loadouts by adding more heat if you mount to many weapons.

Thing is there are mechs that come with the hardpoints to run current meta loadouts which also aren't complete garbage. So you'll just see a bunch of mechs left behind because they don't have the right sized hardpoints.

Quote

How does the unrestriced mechlab fix the terrible hitboxes or horrible mixed weapon type loadouts?

With Ghost Heat.
And with over the top quirks like done for the Vindicator?

The unrestricted mechlab doesn't fix terrible hardpoints or poor hardpoint selection, but quirks can compensate for one or the other in some cases.

Quote

And boating Lasers & SRMs as only viable option for medium Mechs is good for a Mechwarrior Game because?

There are a few mediums that don't need to rely on lasers or srms. The peep Veagle is top meta, and there are a bunch of other mediums that can be effective with CERPPCs. You also see IS peeps on some mediums, though admittedly the weapon family needs a buff. You also see the occasional medium that boats ACs (VGL-2, HBK-IIC, etc.), but you just don't have enough tonnage on mediums (and you can't fault having an unrestricted mechlab for that!).

[Brauer]

Best medium brawlers: ASN-21, Frenzy, Pakhet, KTO-18

Situational: ACW-1, BLK, CRB-27B, VGL-A

It's possible I've overlooked a mech or two, but the Centurion doesn't come close to making a list of the best medium brawlers. And plenty of these mechs don't have high mounts.

[Gas Guzzler]

Alreech, on 20 December 2020 - 03:27 AM, said:

And boating Lasers & SRMs as only viable option for medium Mechs is good for a Mechwarrior Game because?

That's not true at all

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Brauer, on 20 December 2020 - 07:45 PM, said:

Thing is there are mechs that come with the hardpoints to run current meta loadouts which also aren't complete garbage. So you'll just see a bunch of mechs left behind because they don't have the right sized hardpoints.

I'm gonna say this again, sized hardpoints are completely arbitrary just like number of hardpoints are, they are up to devs to decide so this kinda a moot point.

Brauer, on 20 December 2020 - 07:45 PM, said:

The unrestricted mechlab doesn't fix terrible hardpoints or poor hardpoint selection, but quirks can compensate for one or the other in some cases.

So too can sized hartpoints, its just another dimension than number of hardpoints which can itself make or break mechs which is honestly what confuses me why one is okay but the other isn't. Number of hardpoints can be just as detrimental to mechs as sized hardpoints depending on the build (mostly on the light/medium sized where you need to boat small/medium lasers).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 20 December 2020 - 11:34 PM.

[MitchellAvellar]

Well, i'd love to see it ported to the Unreal engine as it feels like that one is a little nicer on us flight stick users.

On all the posters calling for them to release the unseen....yeah, sounds great....IF they are 3000% sure that they won't get sued over it. Maybe something signed in blood.

Other than that, i'd love to see some improved latency handling (or whatever it is) to make it less likely for me to see a shot fire off in to nowhere and still somehow hit and vice-versa

[Will9761]

MitchellAvellar, on 21 December 2020 - 12:10 PM, said:

On all the posters calling for them to release the unseen....yeah, sounds great....IF they are 3000% sure that they won't get sued over it. Maybe something signed in blood.

PGI won the case against HG as it was dismissed with prejudice, so that means that Harmony Gold cannot ever sue them, HBS and CGL ever again. So if you ever wondered why we have been seeing mechs like the Warhammer IIC, Rifleman IIC, and Marauder II in this game, then that is why.

Edited by Will9761, 21 December 2020 - 03:44 PM.

[Sunstruck]

Daeron, can PGI please update the Battle master and Thunderbolt to actually look like a Battle master and Thunderbolt, now that they have the harmony lawsuit settled.

[Acersecomic]

Introduce weapon slot size, kinda like what they had in MechWarrior 4. It would prevent some of the more ridiculous builds in the game and get people to use a larger variety of mech variants.

Introduce Ballistic Recoil. The more ballistics fire at the same time or in a very short period from one another, the more recoil and spread there is. It would stop the insanely broken quad AC5, x8 AC2, DakkaCat builds and such other bad habits.

Kill times in this game are absolutely and insanely short if you run into meta builds. Encourage diverse builds, punish one-click-wonders. This is MechWarrior, BATTLETECH! Not Call of Duty. We're supposed to brawl the sht out of each other, exchange fire... not hide behind a corner afraid that if we even peek out a side torso will instantly get blown out. BECAUSE IT HAPPENS.
This in turn results in utter stomps because we count DPS, not DPM in this game, you want to kill as fast as possible because that draaaastically reduces the chances for the enemy team to win. Meaning the team with say... first 2 or 3 kills in most cases is going to utterly stomp and dominate the other team. Miracles happen but we do not want miracles but good matches.

Introduce separate hitboxes/limbs for bunny ear weapons. To avoid added tonnage issue just give them a large armor quirk. People are afraid to add missile weapons and such to their mechs because it is a clear, isolated side torso hitbox. For the pilot of such a mech it is suicidal to add weapons which add larger hitboxes. Some of the biggest offenders are Blood Asp, MadCat, TimberWolf, Warhammer... That again reduces the amount of variety in the builds. And it ties into the "hardpoint" argument. To prevent the issue of "mount slots" not going over 78, restrict mounting of equipment on it to just weapons, like say "4 slots for weapon".

There's a lot of room for improvement of existing systems and making sure the builds become diverse and less oriented towards "kill as fast as possible" to "prepare for a variety of ranges and engagements".
Make the fights last

[ghost1e]

Acersecomic, on 22 December 2020 - 03:00 AM, said:

Introduce Ballistic Recoil. The more ballistics fire at the same time or in a very short period from one another, the more recoil and spread there is. It would stop the insanely broken quad AC5, x8 AC2, DakkaCat builds and such other bad habits.

Kill times in this game are absolutely and insanely short if you run into meta builds. Encourage diverse builds, punish one-click-wonders. This is MechWarrior, BATTLETECH! Not Call of Duty. We're supposed to brawl the sht out of each other, exchange fire... not hide behind a corner afraid that if we even peek out a side torso will instantly get blown out. BECAUSE IT HAPPENS.
This in turn results in utter stomps because we count DPS, not DPM in this game, you want to kill as fast as possible because that draaaastically reduces the chances for the enemy team to win. Meaning the team with say... first 2 or 3 kills in most cases is going to utterly stomp and dominate the other team. Miracles happen but we do not want miracles but good matches.

introducing a spread mechanic removes aiming. people would still play those builds, just that everyone would perform the same in it. you might as well make them be lock-on weapons
(not to mention dakka builds are far from op, best weapons in the game currently are probably C-ERPPC and IS MPL)

Acersecomic, on 22 December 2020 - 03:00 AM, said:

Introduce separate hitboxes/limbs for bunny ear weapons. To avoid added tonnage issue just give them a large armor quirk. People are afraid to add missile weapons and such to their mechs because it is a clear, isolated side torso hitbox. For the pilot of such a mech it is suicidal to add weapons which add larger hitboxes. Some of the biggest offenders are Blood Asp, MadCat, TimberWolf, Warhammer... That again reduces the amount of variety in the builds. And it ties into the "hardpoint" argument. To prevent the issue of "mount slots" not going over 78, restrict mounting of equipment on it to just weapons, like say "4 slots for weapon".

most mechs would not benefit from such a change, so it is not really worth doing imo, as it only affects few mechs.
also, you make BAS absolutely OP (as long as those ears aren't super fragile, in which case you make all those mechs pretty much worthless).

also, as you said:

Acersecomic, on 22 December 2020 - 03:00 AM, said:

This is MechWarrior, BATTLETECH!

And in Battletech there are only the 8 components we currently have.

Edited by TheUltimateGhost, 22 December 2020 - 03:11 AM.